"HEX Be a Lady!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff Appreciation 2021

[MaximoffTrash]

I feel like they're basically using the Mind Stone as Chthon's place in her origin - Wanda was already a witch/mutant/born with powers/whatever, but Chthon/the Mind Stone made it so her powers went to the huge level of Chaos Magic.

They said they'll explore more about the Darkhold though, so maybe not...

The Mind Stone is more like her genetic power in Busiek's power set because it involves "energy" while Chthon's role is more about "function" you know what I mean.
She is born a witch with basic Chthonic power that functions at lower capacity, Mind Stone offers her more magicka bar or say spell slots.

[MaximoffTrash]

The Mind Stone experiments were introduced first in the narrative, but WandaVision retconned it so that she already had powers without it. So, chronologically/in-story wise, the magic powers come first and then the Mind Stone comes later.

Functionality wise, the Mind Stone is more like her genetic/mutant power post 1998.



This gif has a filter that makes it pink-ish/purple-ish though. But I know what you mean, and I'm not counting on it looking brighter/more vibrant in DS2 unless they actually paint it or touch it up on post-production. The lightning in WandaVision wasn't exactly the darkest, and I imagine that DS2, being lowkey a horror movie, will be even darker.

It is not about who comes first, her genetic power and Chthonic power came about the same time, or even I would argue Chthonic power came earlier since it's probably already active after her birth since Chthon marked her, while her mutant power would probably only really manifest during her teenage years.(Which would mean her Chthonic power isn't really usable since it has no energy source.)

[Wiccan]

It is not about who comes first, her genetic power and Chthonic power came about the same time, or even I would argue Chthonic power came earlier since it's probably already active after her birth since Chthon marked her, while her mutant power would probably only really manifest during her teenage years.(Which would mean her Chthonic power isn't really usable since it has no energy source.)

GenericUsername said Mind Stone was equivalent to mutant power because it was written first, while Chthonic power was written later. My argument was that with WandaVision's retcons, that's not how it works from a narrative/in-story standpoint.

Her Chthonic power also wasn't "already active since birth" otherwise she would be using her powers as a child which afaik she didn't. It's the same as the mutant gene in that it was something that she had inside her but was dormant. And the mutant power came first as she's literally born with it, while Chthon's marking comes, well, after birth, even if she's a baby. Kurt Busiek talked recently about how he meant for Chaos Magic to sort of unify all the explanations of her powers by saying that because of Chthon's markings, her mutant power manifested as magic.

Of course, that's not exactly the current canon, as she's now not a mutant and inhereted witchcraft from her mother (in addition to High Evolutionary experiments AND Chthon!).

[GenericUsername]

GenericUsername said Mind Stone was equivalent to mutant power because it was written first, while Chthonic power was written later. My argument was that with WandaVision's retcons, that's not how it works from a narrative/in-story standpoint.

Her Chthonic power also wasn't "already active since birth" otherwise she would be using her powers as a child which afaik she didn't. It's the same as the mutant gene in that it was something that she had inside her but was dormant. And the mutant power came first as she's literally born with it, while Chthon's marking comes, well, after birth, even if she's a baby. Kurt Busiek talked recently about how he meant for Chaos Magic to sort of unify all the explanations of her powers by saying that because of Chthon's markings, her mutant power manifested as magic.

Of course, that's not exactly the current canon, as she's now not a mutant and inhereted witchcraft from her mother (in addition to High Evolutionary experiments AND Chthon!).

No not because it was written first. Just because it's a replacement for the science side of Wanda's powers.

[GenericUsername]

The Mind Stone experiments were introduced first in the narrative, but WandaVision retconned it so that she already had powers without it. So, chronologically/in-story wise, the magic powers come first and then the Mind Stone comes later.



This gif has a filter that makes it pink-ish/purple-ish though. But I know what you mean, and I'm not counting on it looking brighter/more vibrant in DS2 unless they actually paint it or touch it up on post-production. The lightning in WandaVision wasn't exactly the darkest, and I imagine that DS2, being lowkey a horror movie, will be even darker.

They didn't retcon the mind stone though. They didn't even retcon that it was her first ability. They hinted that it enhanced other things. So then we find out that it enhanced her chaos magic that she had been blessed with early on in life, maybe from birth but manifested when she was 10. But she did not know that. She thought the bomb was a dud. So she thought her powers were from the mind stone.

Wanda in comics thought all her powers were mutant, until it wasn't.

[Wiccan]

No not because it was written first. Just because it's a replacement for the science side of Wanda's powers.

They didn't retcon the mind stone though. They didn't even retcon that it was her first ability. They hinted that it enhanced other things. So then we find out that it enhanced her chaos magic that she had been blessed with early on in life, maybe from birth but manifested when she was 10. But she did not know that. She thought the bomb was a dud. So she thought her powers were from the mind stone.

Wanda in comics thought all her powers were mutant, until it wasn't.

Yes they retconned things. Before WandaVision they didn't establish Wanda's powers as being magic, they didn't establish her as having stopped the bomb, and her and Pietro being the sole survivors of the experiments doesn't have any exact meaning until another writer creates one (which still leaves the question of how Pietro survived too).

1)Comics Wanda (previously): Born mutant with powers, marked by Chthon which highly increases her powers
MCU Wanda: Born a witch with powers, exposed to the Mind Stone which highly increases her powers

That was my point in regards to that.

2)There's no implication that what she had before was Chaos Magic already. Agatha talks about it like she was a normal witch, talks about a "probability hex" like it was a basic spell most witches can do, and reinforces that this doesn't explain how she was able to do what she did in Westview. Then after seeing the flashback of her with the Mind Stone she says things are starting to make sense and that she has a theory. She says in the finale that the Scarlet Witch isn't born, she's forged. So Wanda being born with her powers wouldn't make her the Scarlet Witch, only a regular witch.

Could they say later that Chthon marked her as a child and things went the way they did because of that? Yes, but so far they haven't.

[MaximoffTrash]

GenericUsername said Mind Stone was equivalent to mutant power because it was written first, while Chthonic power was written later. My argument was that with WandaVision's retcons, that's not how it works from a narrative/in-story standpoint.

Her Chthonic power also wasn't "already active since birth" otherwise she would be using her powers as a child which afaik she didn't. It's the same as the mutant gene in that it was something that she had inside her but was dormant. And the mutant power came first as she's literally born with it, while Chthon's marking comes, well, after birth, even if she's a baby. Kurt Busiek talked recently about how he meant for Chaos Magic to sort of unify all the explanations of her powers by saying that because of Chthon's markings, her mutant power manifested as magic.

Of course, that's not exactly the current canon, as she's now not a mutant and inhereted witchcraft from her mother (in addition to High Evolutionary experiments AND Chthon!).

Did you read my whole comment, I said I would argue, her Chthonic power cannot be active without her mutant power. And mutants of Wanda's generation generally have their power activated at teenage years under stress. While Her Chthonic power doesn't really have that age limit.
Like she has a skill greyed out due to low magicka/spell slot if we are using some video game logic, but technically she has Chaos Magic power at birth, just without active genetic power to give it juice.

[MaximoffTrash]

Yes they retconned things. Before WandaVision they didn't establish Wanda's powers as being magic, they didn't establish her as having stopped the bomb, and her and Pietro being the sole survivors of the experiments doesn't have any exact meaning until another writer creates one (which still leaves the question of how Pietro survived too).

1)Comics Wanda (previously): Born mutant with powers, marked by Chthon which highly increases her powers
MCU Wanda: Born a witch with powers, exposed to the Mind Stone which highly increases her powers

That was my point in regards to that.

2)There's no implication that what she had before was Chaos Magic already. Agatha talks about it like she was a normal witch, talks about a "probability hex" like it was a basic spell most witches can do, and reinforces that this doesn't explain how she was able to do what she did in Westview. Then after seeing the flashback of her with the Mind Stone she says things are starting to make sense and that she has a theory. She says in the finale that the Scarlet Witch isn't born, she's forged. So Wanda being born with her powers wouldn't make her the Scarlet Witch, only a regular witch.

Could they say later that Chthon marked her as a child and things went the way they did because of that? Yes, but so far they haven't.

Again, Chthon could very well just mark her with the hope she might fulfill the prophecy without directly making her the SW.
"Candidates that might fulfill a single prophecy through trials" is a common trope.

[Wiccan]

Did you read my whole comment, I said I would argue, her Chthonic power cannot be active without her mutant power. And mutants of Wanda's generation generally have their power activated at teenage years under stress. While Her Chthonic power doesn't really have that age limit.
Like she has a skill greyed out due to low magicka/spell slot if we are using some video game logic, but technically she has Chaos Magic power at birth, just without active genetic power to give it juice.

Ok I know/understand/agree with all of that, so maybe I misinterpred your comment.

Again, Chthon could very well just mark her with the hope she might fulfill the prophecy without directly making her the SW.
"Candidates that might fulfill a single prophecy through trials" is a common trope.

You just said "Did you read my whole comment?" and then ignored the part at the end of mine where I said that maybe they could say in a later movie Chthon marked her. (but they haven't, and we don't know if they will, I'm making a parallel/comparison with what's currently canon, not what people want to happen, and it's really not that hard to understand...)

[MaximoffTrash]

I didn't disagree with what you said, I am just talking about the nature of that prophecy and its chosen one.
Edit: Again there is also a possibility that Chthon only made that prophecy and wait for random wtiches to fulfill it. And Wanda's innate magic is just a random phenomenon among human population than a deliberate intervention. This explanation works better when it comes to the problems like "why didn't Chthon mark someone earlier"(and of course they can do stories about Modred, Morgan, HE to explain why he only had a short window to influence people on Earth.)

[GenericUsername]

Yes they retconned things. Before WandaVision they didn't establish Wanda's powers as being magic, they didn't establish her as having stopped the bomb, and her and Pietro being the sole survivors of the experiments doesn't have any exact meaning until another writer creates one (which still leaves the question of how Pietro survived too).

1)Comics Wanda (previously): Born mutant with powers, marked by Chthon which highly increases her powers
MCU Wanda: Born a witch with powers, exposed to the Mind Stone which highly increases her powers

That was my point in regards to that.

2)There's no implication that what she had before was Chaos Magic already. Agatha talks about it like she was a normal witch, talks about a "probability hex" like it was a basic spell most witches can do, and reinforces that this doesn't explain how she was able to do what she did in Westview. Then after seeing the flashback of her with the Mind Stone she says things are starting to make sense and that she has a theory. She says in the finale that the Scarlet Witch isn't born, she's forged. So Wanda being born with her powers wouldn't make her the Scarlet Witch, only a regular witch.

Could they say later that Chthon marked her as a child and things went the way they did because of that? Yes, but so far they haven't.

That's just things they didn't go into yet. They didn't get rid of the previous canon so I don't consider that a retcon. Just expanded upon canon.

Probability falls under chaos magic. That was the whole purpose of Wanda's powers being put under that whole banner.

Chthon was not established, but it's pretty much the same since chaos magic is what he gave her, chaos is what she wields here. The science part is an aspect that works in tandem with it. Not independent of it. Not replaced with it.

I'm just saying she's still science + magic in each universe. In both she didn't learn that she naturally wielded magic until later because the science part was what she knew. First knew she was a mutant, then found out about the Chthon blessing. First thought she was an experiment, then found out she was a baby witch.

[MaximoffTrash]

Yeah, I think people have different definition for retcons.
Like if you have characters with pretty much blank background(like 60s Wanda/Pietro), does giving them more detailed origin story a retcon?
Again with character who are around for decades, anything that changes their lore and backstory may count as as a retcon since they are bound to replace stuff.
But it's more complicated with "fresh" characters.

[CJStriker]

Hey Fellow Wanda Faithful, I just wanted to say how Happy you All Made me so far with the responses to my retrospective on Our Wanda and her origin in comics and her journey threw out!

It has been a real treat and pleasure to read all of your posts on it, truly a great conversation is being had and fellow fans learning about Wanda!

I am sorry I can’t stay on to talk with you all on it tonight but I will shortly the next day.

Got Also Great News today too I feel best sharing with you all;

I got My 1st shot of the Pfizer-BioNTech Vaccine and besides shoreness I am doing fine, I hope and pray for safety and health to you all too, please be safe and get your Vaccine when you can.

Makes me feel good and right at home sharing my own journey threw life, Like Wanda with you all!

Peace, Love and safe healing to you all and may we all stay close and for much time to come talking and sharing our Love for Wanda Together.

Long Live Wanda! =)

https://www.deviantart.com/bigchrisg...anda-466810425

[GenericUsername]

Hey Fellow Wanda Faithful, I just wanted to say how Happy you All Made me so far with the responses to my retrospective on Our Wanda and her origin in comics and her journey threw out!

It has been a real treat and pleasure to read all of your posts on it, truly a great conversation is being had and fellow fans learning about Wanda!

I am sorry I can’t stay on to talk with you all on it tonight but I will shortly the next day.

Got Also Great News today too I feel best sharing with you all;

I got My 1st shot of the Pfizer-BioNTech Vaccine and besides shoreness I am doing fine, I hope and pray for safety and health to you all too, please be safe and get your Vaccine when you can.

Makes me feel good and right at home sharing my own journey threw life, Like Wanda with you all!

Peace, Love and safe healing to you all and may we all stay close and for much time to come talking and sharing our Love for Wanda Together.

Long Live Wanda! =)

https://www.deviantart.com/bigchrisg...anda-466810425

I'm way down the list on vaccines and my state is way behind on administering it. Still in phase 1A. Maybe by end of summer.

But I'm glad you got your's and with very little reaction to it. Stay safe CJ! <3

[Drops Of Venus]

Yeah, I think people have different definition for retcons.
Like if you have characters with pretty much blank background(like 60s Wanda/Pietro), does giving them more detailed origin story a retcon?
Again with character who are around for decades, anything that changes their lore and backstory may count as as a retcon since they are bound to replace stuff.
But it's more complicated with "fresh" characters.

To me, it's all about intention of the writers. If a writer intended for something to be canon and a later writer comes along and specifically changes the established canon with another intention, then that's a retcon. If you really wanna reach, you could even argue that Wanda not being a mutant is technically not a retcon because Uncanny Avengers actually explained that she had an artificial X-gene, so she was a ''mutant'' for all those years after all, just not a real, natural one. But I think most people (me included) consider it a retcon because the intention of the writer was clearly not the same intention Stan Lee had for Wanda back in the 60s. He wanted her to be a natural mutant.

With MCU Wanda, I think that depends on what the writers and director of Age Of Ultron intended, and I'm not sure if they ever openly discussed this. If they always wanted her to be someone who got her already existing potential unlocked by the Stone, then yeah, I would agree that WandaVision didn't retcon anything and just expanded upon the original vision. But if they wanted her powers to come exclusively from the Stone, then I would consider WandaVision to be a retcon. There's an argument to be made that maybe it wasn't a retcon because Marvel had been teasing that Wanda had existing powers for a few years now in additional material for the MCU. So maybe that was their intention all along...