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  1. #1126

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    If they don't know them well enough, they definitely should leave them alone. But using the stereotypes and being cheeky about it isn't better. We still know what they are doing. Other people still make that association with the stereotypes. So they are using it and still perpetuating it.

    It'd be best if they got people involved from Roma groups out there that have already offered to help entertainment get these depictions correct and work at doing better. Because removing any chance at good representation isn't better either.
    It's Hollywood. They don't know how to properly represent anything. I don't think any attempt would be good. Since they already casted a Scandinavian-American for Wanda's role, they can't back peddle now because it would be worse to say she is Romani now. They can only try to do better with Doctor Doom, but making a Romani character a dictator type person and a witch is not going to go well.

  2. #1127
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Pagans, like me, get some flack about the term 'gypsy' and my own take is different as well as to the article's tone.

    I met Wanda before I was 13, in the late '60s. It was clear they were European. I remember when Magneto regained the twins in the Avengers, circa #48 or 49? and they recapped their story of how he rescued them from angry villagers who thought she was a Witch.
    Of course there have been multiple retcons, but I always think of her as a European sort first.
    My mom, who is full blooded Lithuanian (fun fact: one of the last countries to be converted to Christianity, as late as the 13th or 14th century, but mostly very Catholic in recent ages. Also, they once had a large population of Jewish folks up until WW2) who often told us kids

    we were 'gypsies' because we moved around a lot as a young family. To my mom (and to me for years) the term 'Gypsy' was a colorful and romantic term. I never thought of "horse-thieves" or swindlers of any sort. As far as Fortune Teller, well, I have read Tarot cards for decades, whatever.
    So I understand that maybe many, many others have this bad connection to the G word, but I would say that some descendants of European cultures (my mom and grandmother could both speak Lithuanian) may see it differently.

    Still, while I bow to the idea that we should not perpetuate bad stereotypes of Romani, I am not really feeling the 'white wash' thing either

    because I've mostly, always seen Wanda as an American and proud to be one. I think the emphasis on her heritage and culture is a pretty late retcon and I'm just not going to get all angsty about Disney or Marvel's intentions, lack, etc.

    I'm too old for that.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  3. #1128
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    The complicated history of Marvel whitewashing Scarlet Witch
    https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/wan...mani-heritage/

    What do you think of this?
    I'm not getting into the whitewashing stuff because we've been there, done that for ages now, but I'll say that the fortune teller line in the last episode was absolutely unnecessary and I wish they hadn't included it. It really just felt like adding fuel to the fire, and I hate to see more controversy like that surrounding a show that I enjoy everything else about. And now I'm really, REALLY scared about what explanation they're gonna come up with for the Scarlet Witch name in the show, since we know we're getting an origin story for that, and we also know from leaked set pics that spoilers:
    we will have some sort of witch plot in the show with Agnes later on.
    end of spoilers At this point I'm just praying they won't do anything too distasteful, but after the tone deaf fortune teller thing.... I fear. And it sucks, because I was actually pretty excited about MCU Wanda getting more mystical. I hope I can still enjoy that.

    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    The "fortune teller" line suggests that the writers, like Lizzie, actually think that costume is connected to that (stereotypical) aspect of Wanda's heritage, when of course she was wearing that costume long before Django Maximoff was added to her backstory.

    Granted it's not hard to get confused about this stuff. "Who were Wanda and Pietro's parents at the time this story was published?" is a confusing question.
    And that's the worst part, like.... they shot themselves in the foot with that line when it wasn't even necessary. All of this controversy for something that wasn't even canon. Sigh.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    I mean, it's a freaking leotard with pink stocking, your average 60s heroine shit, why the hell would they tie that to her Romani heritage?
    You'd be surprised with how many people have this misconception, from the fans, now to the actual writers of the show apparently. It's one of the downsides of Wanda being plagued by retcons. It really made her comic book lore super confusing.

  4. #1129
    Incredible Member teapartyofthedead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    If they don't know them well enough, they definitely should leave them alone. But using the stereotypes and being cheeky about it isn't better. We still know what they are doing. Other people still make that association with the stereotypes. So they are using it and still perpetuating it.

    It'd be best if they got people involved from Roma groups out there that have already offered to help entertainment get these depictions correct and work at doing better. Because removing any chance at good representation isn't better either.
    I’m going to echo the call for Marvel to make an active effort to get Romani creatives and consultants when it comes to writing the Maximoff twins. The ‘Sokovian fortune teller costume’ line was so reductive and unnecessary.

  5. #1130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Pagans, like me, get some flack about the term 'gypsy' and my own take is different as well as to the article's tone.

    I met Wanda before I was 13, in the late '60s. It was clear they were European. I remember when Magneto regained the twins in the Avengers, circa #48 or 49? and they recapped their story of how he rescued them from angry villagers who thought she was a Witch.
    Of course there have been multiple retcons, but I always think of her as a European sort first.
    My mom, who is full blooded Lithuanian (fun fact: one of the last countries to be converted to Christianity, as late as the 13th or 14th century, but mostly very Catholic in recent ages. Also, they once had a large population of Jewish folks up until WW2) who often told us kids

    we were 'gypsies' because we moved around a lot as a young family. To my mom (and to me for years) the term 'Gypsy' was a colorful and romantic term. I never thought of "horse-thieves" or swindlers of any sort. As far as Fortune Teller, well, I have read Tarot cards for decades, whatever.
    So I understand that maybe many, many others have this bad connection to the G word, but I would say that some descendants of European cultures (my mom and grandmother could both speak Lithuanian) may see it differently.

    Still, while I bow to the idea that we should not perpetuate bad stereotypes of Romani, I am not really feeling the 'white wash' thing either

    because I've mostly, always seen Wanda as an American and proud to be one. I think the emphasis on her heritage and culture is a pretty late retcon and I'm just not going to get all angsty about Disney or Marvel's intentions, lack, etc.

    I'm too old for that.
    Pagan and Romani don't mix. These two aren't a thing. Romani aren't descendants of European cultures. Romani are a diaspora from India about 800 years ago that settled in parts of Europe and elsewhere.

    And the term Gypsy is not the same for general Europeans that get mistaken for one based on some romanticized notion of what being Romani is. That has root in slavery and the holocaust, not just the misconception that the groups came from Egypt. So it is a slur, bar none.

    The traveller thing gets confused by people too. Most Romani do not travel. Only in areas of the world where they are most oppressed and forced to move around do they travel. That's another thing that's been romanticized and they get mistaken with Irish and Scottish travellers. These groups are not the same!

    It is a white wash. Most Romani don't even look white and even white look are not white. You are mistaken when thinking Romani and travellers, Romani and Pagans or any other weird association are the same. It IS NOT!

    Wanda was European, then that was expanded upon that she's Romani and that's been ever since.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  6. #1131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    I'm not getting into the whitewashing stuff because we've been there, done that for ages now, but I'll say that the fortune teller line in the last episode was absolutely unnecessary and I wish they hadn't included it.
    They should have had her say she was feeling a little devilish and wanted to dress up as one.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  7. #1132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    It's Hollywood. They don't know how to properly represent anything. I don't think any attempt would be good. Since they already casted a Scandinavian-American for Wanda's role, they can't back peddle now because it would be worse to say she is Romani now. They can only try to do better with Doctor Doom, but making a Romani character a dictator type person and a witch is not going to go well.
    Once they cast a white woman, she should have had no association. Just have other Romani characters, actually played by Romani and none of the stereotypes. I just don't think Hollywood is there yet. And I wonder when they'll wake up.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  8. #1133
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    I'm not getting into the whitewashing stuff because we've been there, done that for ages now, but I'll say that the fortune teller line in the last episode was absolutely unnecessary and I wish they hadn't included it. It really just felt like adding fuel to the fire, and I hate to see more controversy like that surrounding a show that I enjoy everything else about. And now I'm really, REALLY scared about what explanation they're gonna come up with for the Scarlet Witch name in the show, since we know we're getting an origin story for that, and we also know from leaked set pics that spoilers:
    we will have some sort of witch plot in the show with Agnes later on.
    end of spoilers At this point I'm just praying they won't do anything too distasteful, but after the tone deaf fortune teller thing.... I fear. And it sucks, because I was actually pretty excited about MCU Wanda getting more mystical. I hope I can still enjoy that.



    And that's the worst part, like.... they shot themselves in the foot with that line when it wasn't even necessary. All of this controversy for something that wasn't even canon. Sigh.



    You'd be surprised with how many people have this misconception, from the fans, now to the actual writers of the show apparently. It's one of the downsides of Wanda being plagued by retcons. It really made her comic book lore super confusing.
    I'm actually surprised the series is doing what you just mentioned. I thought they were gonna turn her into a sort of all-American wife and mother and move on from her past. Which I'm okay with because that accent is just not a good fit for Wanda.

  9. #1134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I'm actually surprised the series is doing what you just mentioned. I thought they were gonna turn her into a sort of all-American wife and mother and move on from her past. Which I'm okay with because that accent is just not a good fit for Wanda.
    I also thought they would have accents. The California accent is cringeworthy. They were always written as non-Anglophone Europeans, and in the movies they're from Sokovia. I know many European countries are very Americanized, so a lot of the young people speak with Californian accents, but they already started it. At least they're conscious about it and bring it up in the show. She technically has only been living in the US for a short period of time, and I think she's using her magic/powers for the accent.

  10. #1135
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I was trying to indicate that my mother had an idealized version of gypsies, that wasn't the

    we hate them because they're evil and such.

    Pagans may not mix with Romani, but many modern Pagans do not like any sort of stereo typing and so they are silently or otherwise, in sympathy at least.

    Of course it is well known about the India diaspora, but after hundreds of years, longer, who knows, they, like Jews and many others do have to dilution due to migrations and other mixing.

    I guess I'm also saying that to me, despite retcons, Wanda is a European. I look at her origins with the adopted parents and Wundragore mountain and I mostly see Euro. That's just me.

    Like my mom I have no disrespect fo the people.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  11. #1136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I was trying to indicate that my mother had an idealized version of gypsies, that wasn't the

    we hate them because they're evil and such.

    Pagans may not mix with Romani, but many modern Pagans do not like any sort of stereo typing and so they are silently or otherwise, in sympathy at least.

    Of course it is well known about the India diaspora, but after hundreds of years, longer, who knows, they, like Jews and many others do have to dilution due to migrations and other mixing.

    I guess I'm also saying that to me, despite retcons, Wanda is a European. I look at her origins with the adopted parents and Wundragore mountain and I mostly see Euro. That's just me.

    Like my mom I have no disrespect fo the people.
    Wanda is a complicated case because of retcons, but Marvel chose to make her Romani and with that comes responsibility. My dad's people aren't even maybe white. Like there is very little inter-mixing in Europe of Romani. It's very, very rare. It's more common in the US, but still pretty limited. Most don't look white. And anyone mixed is of descent and not Romani. Just mixed.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  12. #1137
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    I also thought they would have accents. The California accent is cringeworthy. They were always written as non-Anglophone Europeans, and in the movies they're from Sokovia. I know many European countries are very Americanized, so a lot of the young people speak with Californian accents, but they already started it. At least they're conscious about it and bring it up in the show. She technically has only been living in the US for a short period of time, and I think she's using her magic/powers for the accent.
    I didn't mind the accent at first. But it's just so inconsistent. Like within a sentence she would first be talking like an Eastern European, and then quickly reverts to her SoCal diction. That badass scene which she had last episode was kind of ruined for me because of it. Don't get me wrong, I think Olsen is doing an amazing and phenomenal job. I just think making her speak in that accent is unnecessary at this point.

  13. #1138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I didn't mind the accent at first. But it's just so inconsistent. Like within a sentence she would first be talking like an Eastern European, and then quickly reverts to her SoCal diction. That badass scene which she had last episode was kind of ruined for me because of it. Don't get me wrong, I think Olsen is doing an amazing and phenomenal job. I just think making her speak in that accent is unnecessary at this point.
    I guess when she speaks with a Sokovian accent it's "the real Wanda" and they wanted to make the distinction to add to the hex/TV version of her. It's kinda like when some people speak a second language, they might curse in their native language because the feeling is more authentic to them.
    Last edited by Force de Phenix; 02-12-2021 at 04:13 PM.

  14. #1139
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    I guess when she speaks with a Sokovian accent it's "the real Wanda" and they wanted to make the distinction to add to the hex/TV version of her. It's kinda like when some people who speak a second language, they might curse in their native language because the feeling is more authentic to them.
    Yeah, that does make sense. I guess it would be pretty instinctual for her to do that.

  15. #1140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    I'm not getting into the whitewashing stuff because we've been there, done that for ages now, but I'll say that the fortune teller line in the last episode was absolutely unnecessary and I wish they hadn't included it. It really just felt like adding fuel to the fire, and I hate to see more controversy like that surrounding a show that I enjoy everything else about. And now I'm really, REALLY scared about what explanation they're gonna come up with for the Scarlet Witch name in the show, since we know we're getting an origin story for that, and we also know from leaked set pics that spoilers:
    we will have some sort of witch plot in the show with Agnes later on.
    end of spoilers At this point I'm just praying they won't do anything too distasteful, but after the tone deaf fortune teller thing.... I fear. And it sucks, because I was actually pretty excited about MCU Wanda getting more mystical. I hope I can still enjoy that.



    And that's the worst part, like.... they shot themselves in the foot with that line when it wasn't even necessary. All of this controversy for something that wasn't even canon. Sigh.



    You'd be surprised with how many people have this misconception, from the fans, now to the actual writers of the show apparently. It's one of the downsides of Wanda being plagued by retcons. It really made her comic book lore super confusing.
    But really, even if we are purely basing our understanding upon stereotypes of said cultures. Leotard is not exactly something "exotic" which is associated with Romani people.(I mean, it has its origin in circus performers or maybe stage magician perfermer costumes right?)
    I would get it if it's the Perez costume, your typical fantasy belly dancer costume that could be connected to Romani/India etc in Western audience's perception.
    Jeez, talking about not even learning your stereotypes well.

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