Spider-Woman Appreciation 2021

[Spiderfan001]

It is totally outdated. It comes from this "one above all" idea which hurts lesser known characters. And it does happen more to women. Carol doesn't need to be above anyone, neither does anyone need to be above her.



Yeah, because he gets promoted so much. If others got the same promotion, they might be as popular too. See my above comment



They were only C/D listers to the general public. At least the big 3 Avengers were all A-list comics characters.

She's not above anyone.It's just that is their "star" character.I do see why it's not a great idea though.

But he's already there, and unlike some character he made it on his own.He's at a point where even if he's bad they will push him through it because he's a money making machine.
The problem is many people argue why smaller characters don't get pushed, the point is you have to be a great character first and people have to love you and then you get pushed.Or if you get a push you have to make it count.

Agreed, I think he is talking about Movies though so general public.

[Spiderfan001]

This. If Spider-Man drops in sales, they dont sideline his books for months to years. They find the next big creative team they can put together and give him a new number one with massive promotion across all comics news outlets. Same for Captain America, Thor, Iron Man....
I would love to see Marvel (and DC for that matter) put the same amount of effort into some of their smaller characters. Hey Greg Rucka, you want Spider-Woman? (Just throwing a name out there...I dont even know who would or could take it on, not that I am not happy with Kelly Thompson's run, I am extremely, same with Perez' artwork.)
I will say this though, Marvel has done miles above better than they have before. Jess has had three ongoing series in the past four five years, with very minimal hiatus in between. Same for Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel and even Kate Bishop to a smaller degree. Marvel is doing better and definitely by Jess for sure. Now as long as they keep it that way.

1.Spider-woman sales have been atrocious even though she has a decent writer and an amazing artist.People just aren't buying it and it's not because of the quality of the book.

2.Peter has had terrible creative teams and has still been sold because people love Spider-man because of what a character he is.He gets "special treatment" because he's that good, not the other way around.The only time that happens is w/ legacy characters, Peter has no legacy name to jump on.

3.Yeah, what should they do to push Captain Marvel?What is Peter, Tony, etc. getting that Captain marvel, Natasha, isn't?

[Spiderfan001]

Exactly. The big few guys get protection no matter how good or bad they are. Others should get the same, or we'd get stuck with the same few guys, and as much as I like them (most of them, at least), it's nice to have variety. Although ideally all the books would be good anyway haha

It is good to her she's getting more attention in the comics. She had somewhat of a sparse level of publication in the 80s/90s, right? So I hope marvel keeps it up. Idk about adaptations outside of the comics, though

1)They get protection because they are that good, Marvel doesn't pick and choose randomly.It's either characters who people live a lot like Spider-man or one's they think show a lot of promise like Tony for a while.The only time someone gets spotlight for no reason is 1.legacy and 2.diversity(not a bad thing)

I mean Jess's solo is good quality wise and still sells horribly, why?Because people don't care about the character.

I love variety and hope Marvel keeps these comics, but there is a reason some characters are loved more than others.

She has cameos in Captain Marvel and ASM(one of the if not the highest selling marvel book) and still her solo(w/ a great creative team) hasn't picked up.Same w/ Black Cat sales who has been tie-ing in and team-up w/ so many popular characters and now is dealing with Infinity stones.

The big guy's get protection because the have delivered for so long.If Messi messes up a match or tournament, you don't take him out of your line-up. because you know he'll bounce back.If a C or D lister makes the same mistakes, their done.It's the same for comic book characters.

[CosmiComic]

She's not above anyone.It's just that is their "star" character.I do see why it's not a great idea though.

But he's already there, and unlike some character he made it on his own.He's at a point where even if he's bad they will push him through it because he's a money making machine.
The problem is many people argue why smaller characters don't get pushed, the point is you have to be a great character first and people have to love you and then you get pushed.Or if you get a push you have to make it count.

But how are they supposed to be great characters if Marvel never does anything with them? This mentality keeps smaller heroes from getting any attention. "Spider-Man's too big to fail but everyone else gets tossed aside" doesn't work for all those characters

Agreed, I think he is talking about Movies though so general public.

1)They get protection because they are that good, Marvel doesn't pick and choose randomly.It's either characters who people live a lot like Spider-man or one's they think show a lot of promise like Tony for a while.The only time someone gets spotlight for no reason is 1.legacy and 2.diversity(not a bad thing)

Lots of characters have potential to be good. But if Marvel puts no effort into them, they never succeed. And as has been pointed out, even the big popular ones go through slumps. So if their stories become bad, should they be cancelled too?

And Marvel isn't always objective. Not even close sometimes

I mean Jess's solo is good quality wise and still sells horribly, why?Because people don't care about the character.

I love variety and hope Marvel keeps these comics, but there is a reason some characters are loved more than others.

Some of those reasons aren't good, though.

She has cameos in Captain Marvel and ASM(one of the if not the highest selling marvel book) and still her solo(w/ a great creative team) hasn't picked up.Same w/ Black Cat sales who has been tie-ing in and team-up w/ so many popular characters and now is dealing with Infinity stones.

The big guy's get protection because the have delivered for so long.If Messi messes up a match or tournament, you don't take him out of your line-up. because you know he'll bounce back.If a C or D lister makes the same mistakes, their done.It's the same for comic book characters.

This isn't tennis, ok. They keep bouncing back because Marvel makes effort to bring them back.

[chicago_bastard]

Spider-Man is an utterly bad example in this discussion as he is and always will be Marvel's most popular character. No other Marvel hero is comparable to him and Marvel doesn't need to push him.

All the other "big" characters that are published constantly had slumps but Marvel never cancelled their books for longer periods, they always got second chances. When one calls Black Cat's selling numbers atrocious it's interesting to point out that Tony's book is currently selling worse than Felicia's. But out of these two only Felicia is in danger of getting cancelled, and that exactly shows the problem.

If Marvel had been as patient with Jess, Nat, and Felicia as they were with Cap, Tony, or Matt then these characters would now have a bigger following. Carol is the best example, she was given relaunch after relaunch despite all of them weren't selling until Thompson's run finally started to take off and now Carol sells no worse than Steve or Tony.

[CosmiComic]

Spider-Man is an utterly bad example in this discussion as he is and always will be Marvel's most popular character. No other Marvel hero is comparable to him and Marvel doesn't need to push him.

All the other "big" characters that are published constantly had slumps but Marvel never cancelled their books for longer periods, they always got second chances. When one calls Black Cat's selling numbers atrocious it's interesting to point out that Tony's book is currently selling worse than Felicia's. But out of these two only Felicia is in danger of getting cancelled, and that exactly shows the problem.

If Marvel had been as patient with Jess, Nat, and Felicia as they were with Cap, Tony, or Matt then these characters would now have a bigger following. Carol is the best example, she was given relaunch after relaunch despite all of them weren't selling until Thompson's run finally started to take off and now Carol sells no worse than Steve or Tony.

Yeah, Marvel just has to keep trying until something works. And sales numbers don't always indicate quality, especially when some fans will support familiar characters no matter the quality but not do the same for newer or more obscure ones

[Spiderfan001]

Spider-Man is an utterly bad example in this discussion as he is and always will be Marvel's most popular character. No other Marvel hero is comparable to him and Marvel doesn't need to push him.

All the other "big" characters that are published constantly had slumps but Marvel never cancelled their books for longer periods, they always got second chances. When one calls Black Cat's selling numbers atrocious it's interesting to point out that Tony's book is currently selling worse than Felicia's. But out of these two only Felicia is in danger of getting cancelled, and that exactly shows the problem.

If Marvel had been as patient with Jess, Nat, and Felicia as they were with Cap, Tony, or Matt then these characters would now have a bigger following. Carol is the best example, she was given relaunch after relaunch despite all of them weren't selling until Thompson's run finally started to take off and now Carol sells no worse than Steve or Tony.

Agreed 100%.Spidey's been consistent and great from the start for the most part and has always delivered.I think Tony or Steve are better comparisons.

Not really, Black Cat is at the bottom of the barrel, like below 100-115.Where is Iron Man?
Also should be noted Black cat has a vastly better creative team and her solo was team-up with all the popular characters and now infinity stones.
Because Iron man has sold in top 10-25 in the past, Black cat has never shown numbers or potential close to that.
Iron man is given the chance because he has shown he sells in the past, so he gets chances.They don't give chances randomly.

Matt hasn't had a bad run, he's notorious for being the only comic boom character with great creative teams.
And Cap and Tony have been around longer, and they were always comic book A listers.And always sold better than Black Widow or Spider-woman.
They had down points but they were still better than the others mentioned.

And for how many chances Carol got, she's doing pretty bad.Steve,etc. are in what you would call their lows rn, Carol is at her high and they are neck and neck.
That itself tells you why marvel gives them chances.

[Spiderfan001]

Yeah, Marvel just has to keep trying until something works. And sales numbers don't always indicate quality, especially when some fans will support familiar characters no matter the quality but not do the same for newer or more obscure ones

I mean if no one buys it it will stop, people can show "love" on social but unless they buy the comics it doesn't matter.
I agree, shame that even w/ great quality Black Cat and spider-woman don't sell.If you like an obscure or new character, support them.
Otherwise they will go away.

[Spiderfan001]

But how are they supposed to be great characters if Marvel never does anything with them? This mentality keeps smaller heroes from getting any attention. "Spider-Man's too big to fail but everyone else gets tossed aside" doesn't work for all those characters





Lots of characters have potential to be good. But if Marvel puts no effort into them, they never succeed. And as has been pointed out, even the big popular ones go through slumps. So if their stories become bad, should they be cancelled too?

And Marvel isn't always objective. Not even close sometimes



Some of those reasons aren't good, though.



This isn't tennis, ok. They keep bouncing back because Marvel makes effort to bring them back.

Except marvel is.Black cat has been on a tour of the MU and is now front and centre in an Infinity stones event.What else can they do?
In comparison Spider-man is being replaced in his own comic book again.

No, every character has potential.Why would you put effort to prop up a character who has a minor fan-base and doesn't sell even w/great quality.

And the big one's slumps are still better than the C or D listers avg.

Still valid.You may not like them but that doesn't matter.

Again Spider-man has always been a big player for them even during "slumps" but as pointed out above Spider-man is an unfair comparison.
Why Marvel put's an effort with Cap or Tony is because when they are up there, they are damn good.A good Cap or Tony book sells much better than a good Spider-woman book.
Their lows are still better than others avg. for the most part.

This isn't to say they shouldn't prop up smaller characters, but don't expect them to get the treatment A listers do.A listers are given that treatment because they showed they can sell, not the other way around(unless legacy).

When a Black Cat or Spider-woman runs can crack top 10 or top 25 for a single run they will get the same treatment.They are below 100 rn and that's w/ great creative teams and presence in other comics.

[Will Evans]

Spider-Man is Marvel’s flagship character. Like Disney with Mickey Mouse. Why is this even an argument and why comparisons to Jess?

[chicago_bastard]

Not really, Black Cat is at the bottom of the barrel, like below 100-115.Where is Iron Man?

As I said, below Black Cat: https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...07Diamond.html

They don't give chances randomly.

Not randomly, that's right. For decades they looked at the gender and the skin color to decide which heroes should get second chances, there was nothing random about that.

Matt hasn't had a bad run, he's notorious for being the only comic boom character with great creative teams.

Before Frank Miller took over Daredevil didn't sell at all, but he was still published constantly for two decades. Show me a female character that could sell badly for two decades and never got cancelled.

And Cap and Tony have been around longer, and they were always comic book A listers.And always sold better than Black Widow or Spider-woman.
They had down points but they were still better than the others mentioned.

They are A-listers because they had ongoings for six decades straight. And they have these continuous runs because Marvel decided to stick to them even when their books sold atrociously. Why do you think Wonder Woman is the most popular female superhero? Because DC never cancelled her ongoing although there were times she didn't sell. Marvel never did that for any of their female heroes and that's why no one is an A-lister now.

[Will Evans]

With Issa Rae voicing Jessica Drew in Into The Spider-Verse 2, do you think that version will be a black woman?

[Spiderfan001]

As I said, below Black Cat: https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...07Diamond.html



Not randomly, that's right. For decades they looked at the gender and the skin color to decide which heroes should get second chances, there was nothing random about that.



Before Frank Miller took over Daredevil didn't sell at all, but he was still published constantly for two decades. Show me a female character that could sell badly for two decades and never got cancelled.



They are A-listers because they had ongoings for six decades straight. And they have these continuous runs because Marvel decided to stick to them even when their books sold atrociously. Why do you think Wonder Woman is the most popular female superhero? Because DC never cancelled her ongoing although there were times she didn't sell. Marvel never did that for any of their female heroes and that's why no one is an A-lister now.

Neck and Neck in June, below in July.Will check the rest to form an avg.

I agree, I'm not denying that those weren't factors back then.But that's not what they do anymore, if anything it's the opposite now.So don't complain about it in the present when we are already course-correcting.It's an excuse.

He did sell, what are you talking about?

They sold well and thus Marvel decided to stick with them through the bad, that's the point.Jess and Cat haven't sold well, not saying they should be cancelled.Jess has has so many solos and they all sold horribly, maybe give another minor character a chance.Cat hasn't been around for that long in solo so give her like 3-5 more years.
If she picks up keep it going, if not give another one a chance.

Did.... have you not seen how many times Captain Marvel has been cancelled and brought back?

Also you ignore most of my points

[Spiderfan001]

With Issa Rae voicing Jessica Drew in Into The Spider-Verse 2, do you think that version will be a black woman?

Haven't heard her name but heard she was a good VA but can't remember who said it.
I doubt it, but we have no Black Spiders other than Miles so maybe.

[Seren]

On a completely unrelated note, we find out what Jessica's favorite pizza topping is in the next issue.