Spider-Woman Appreciation 2021

[Spiderfan001]

On a completely unrelated note, we find out what Jessica's favorite pizza topping is in the next issue.

Is it a generic thing, or exotic.
And is it Pineapple?Please don't let it be pineapple

[Will Evans]

Is it a generic thing, or exotic.
And is it Pineapple?Please don't let it be pineapple

I always question if people that hate pineapple on pizza have never been to Hawaii.

[CosmiComic]

Except marvel is.Black cat has been on a tour of the MU and is now front and centre in an Infinity stones event.What else can they do?
In comparison Spider-man is being replaced in his own comic book again.

I doubt anything permanent will happen to Peter Parker.

No, every character has potential.Why would you put effort to prop up a character who has a minor fan-base and doesn't sell even w/great quality.

In order to help them to get better. Maybe not every character works. For instance, I don't understand why Fantastic Four is still a thing. But abandoning a character before they have a chance to be good is the problem IMO

And the big one's slumps are still better than the C or D listers avg.

Not always

Still valid.You may not like them but that doesn't matter.

Even if those reasons are problematic, like being sexist or racist? Because we know that's a problem in fandoms. Or even just being unwilling to give new characters a chance.

Again Spider-man has always been a big player for them even during "slumps" but as pointed out above Spider-man is an unfair comparison.
Why Marvel put's an effort with Cap or Tony is because when they are up there, they are damn good.A good Cap or Tony book sells much better than a good Spider-woman book.
Their lows are still better than others avg. for the most part.

But why exactly does she sell worse? That's what I'd like to know.

This isn't to say they shouldn't prop up smaller characters, but don't expect them to get the treatment A listers do.A listers are given that treatment because they showed they can sell, not the other way around(unless legacy).

It does go the other way around sometimes, though. How do you think they became A-listers? Yes, there's instant popularity, but also sustained popularity from years of support.

When a Black Cat or Spider-woman runs can crack top 10 or top 25 for a single run they will get the same treatment.They are below 100 rn and that's w/ great creative teams and presence in other comics.

Well, if the fandom doesn't support them when they're good, Idk what Marvel can do. Just repeat the same few guys, I guess.

As I said, below Black Cat: https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...07Diamond.html


Not randomly, that's right. For decades they looked at the gender and the skin color to decide which heroes should get second chances, there was nothing random about that.

Exactly. Not to mention writers hating some heroes and liking others. Picking favorites leads to some getting more exposure than others.

Before Frank Miller took over Daredevil didn't sell at all, but he was still published constantly for two decades. Show me a female character that could sell badly for two decades and never got cancelled.

Good example

They are A-listers because they had ongoings for six decades straight. And they have these continuous runs because Marvel decided to stick to them even when their books sold atrociously. Why do you think Wonder Woman is the most popular female superhero? Because DC never cancelled her ongoing although there were times she didn't sell. Marvel never did that for any of their female heroes and that's why no one is an A-lister now.

Again, correct.

[CosmiComic]

I always question if people that hate pineapple on pizza have never been to Hawaii.

It's actually good. Or at least, I like it. It's not authentically Italian, but it's still as good as fast food pizza can be. Idk how it is in Hawaii.

[Seren]

I have never been to Hawaii. I love pineapple. I have had Pineapple on pizza. Pineapple on pizza is disgusting.

Sadly I do not know the topping Jess likes but I'm looking forward to finding out

[chicago_bastard]

He did sell, what are you talking about?

In the 70s before Miller's stint began Daredevil didn't sell good. It was relegated to bi-monthly publishing status which doesn't happen to books that sell. The solo series of female chacters at that time (Nat, Greer, Shanna) got cancelled immediately when their sales dropped, Matt got a different treatment. Of course it's easier when you are allowed to go through slumps without getting cancelled.

Did.... have you not seen how many times Captain Marvel has been cancelled and brought back?

I already said that Carol in the last decade is the sole exception among female heroes as Marvel clearly decided to push her as their flagship female character. Pushing one female character is hardly anything to brag about though.

Also you ignore most of my points

Your main point seems to be that these characters are "better" and therefore deserve getting pushed. They are "better" because they got chances others didn't get. So let's see if Spider-Woman and the other current female books will now get the chance to continue through slumps without cancellation.

[Spiderfan001]

In the 70s before Miller's stint began Daredevil didn't sell good. It was relegated to bi-monthly publishing status which doesn't happen to books that sell. The solo series of female chacters at that time (Nat, Greer, Shanna) got cancelled immediately when their sales dropped, Matt got a different treatment. Of course it's easier when you are allowed to go through slumps without getting cancelled.



I already said that Carol in the last decade is the sole exception among female heroes as Marvel clearly decided to push her as their flagship female character. Pushing one female character is hardly anything to brag about though.



Your main point seems to be that these characters are "better" and therefore deserve getting pushed. They are "better" because they got chances others didn't get. So let's see if Spider-Woman and the other current female books will now get the chance to continue through slumps without cancellation.

Again DD's sales were better than Greer's or Sheer's in both highs and lows.

See, even after this push it's still not making great sales.It's mediocre.

The point is Black Cat and Spider-woman have excellent creative teams, great presence in other comics and Black Cat has big team-ups and is front and centre in an infinity stone line-up and the sell the similar to Iron Man in his lows.Black Cat is being pushed a lot as well.

Tony all time lows = Black cat's and Spider-woman's highs

Tony's solo has a mediocre creative team at best and is completely disjointed from the rest of the MU.Cap is doing better than these 3 and that's a bad ongoing as well.

Wrong, they get chances because they are "better".In that time race and gender were factors, I'm not denying that in the slightest.But there are plenty of straight white Male characters who would replace them if they were selling bad.That's why they get chances, because they sold good.

Again Spider-woman has had semi-consistent solo's for how long now?She has had no highs but so many lows.Maybe give that solo to another smaller character now.It's not the quality of the book that's bad in the current run either.
Black Cat should get 3-5 more years before the give another one a chance.

What you don't get is these aren't slumps for these characters, these are their avg. or highs.Whereas Tony, steve,DD etc. are slumps.
Slumps is when a comic sells much worse than it usually does.These guys have never sold better than this, that's what you are mussing.

[Spiderfan001]

I doubt anything permanent will happen to Peter Parker.



In order to help them to get better. Maybe not every character works. For instance, I don't understand why Fantastic Four is still a thing. But abandoning a character before they have a chance to be good is the problem IMO



Not always



Even if those reasons are problematic, like being sexist or racist? Because we know that's a problem in fandoms. Or even just being unwilling to give new characters a chance.



But why exactly does she sell worse? That's what I'd like to know.



It does go the other way around sometimes, though. How do you think they became A-listers? Yes, there's instant popularity, but also sustained popularity from years of support.



Well, if the fandom doesn't support them when they're good, Idk what Marvel can do. Just repeat the same few guys, I guess.



Exactly. Not to mention writers hating some heroes and liking others. Picking favorites leads to some getting more exposure than others.



Good example



Again, correct.

My point is ASM has had to deal w/ a lot of stuff even in recent years(OMD,BND,Slott,Superior, etc.) but still maintained great sale and got better when peter returned.

No, my point is why will you give a D lister a chance when you have A or B listers.Everything has potential but even w/ great quality Black Cat and Spider-woman just don't sell.

But most of the times.

If anything Female characters or POC characters get more of a push in the present,which is a good thing.And new characters are a problem because comics are expensive, if you wanna make a new one stick quality has to be good.Something like Reptil won't cut it.
And legacy characters everyone's jam.I do like a lot of them like kamala,Kate,Sam and Miguel but not Miles, etc.

This.I want to know this too.
The quality of her ongoing is better.

The problem is(which people don't seem to realize) is that this their avg. or highs.Tony, Cap, etc. are on all-time lows and they are on par.

People have said they should get chances but Cap and Tony got them because they sold and proved they can sell.Spider-woman has had many solos and hasn't shown any potential in sales.

Again, the support is from 1)From the get go like Spider-man
But in the second part 2)They get sustained support because they sold and show they can do it again.Spider-woman w/ so many solos hasn't come close to anything Tony, etc. did in the same amount of chances way back when.

Yeah, this is them at their best quality wise and unfortunately highest sales wise.They have never sold better and are still bottom barrel.Marvel can't keep them around because their best chase scenario is on par w/ A lister's worst case.But A lister's best case is so so much better.

That's why I said support them which I'm sure you are.I want Black cat to get another solo so I'm buying it over a Detective comics which I know will sustain nonetheless.

Like Bendis, who lives pushing Luke and Kitty Pryde into everything along w/ his OC's like Miles.
Zdarsky likes Peter but instead of shoving him in runs as a main part(unlike Kitty Pryde being a full time gaurdian or the New Avengers basically being a Luke solo starring them) he does like some pages in 1-7 comics and makes it organic.

[Spiderfan001]

They are A-listers because they had ongoings for six decades straight. And they have these continuous runs because Marvel decided to stick to them even when their books sold atrociously. Why do you think Wonder Woman is the most popular female superhero? Because DC never cancelled her ongoing although there were times she didn't sell. Marvel never did that for any of their female heroes and that's why no one is an A-lister now.

1)They sold and showed promise to sell.Spider-woman in her many solo's hasn't sold or shown promise anywhere near all those A-lister's did in the same number of comics way back when.
2)These slumps you mention for female characters like Spider-woman or Black cat are the best they have ever sold and are still only on par with Tony and Cap at their all time lows.
3)The A listers high points are far far beyond anything the others have shown.

Ms Marvel has had so many solo's and that's even before Captain Marvel phase where she got so many solos.You yourself say she got the A lister treatment.She finally hit her stride w/ Kelly and is finally consistent and selling her best ever.Even after all this her sales don't compare to Tony's at his best.

[Spiderfan001]

I have never been to Hawaii. I love pineapple. I have had Pineapple on pizza. Pineapple on pizza is disgusting.

Sadly I do not know the topping Jess likes but I'm looking forward to finding out

Same, the texture doesn't help either.

[CosmiComic]

Essentially what I and others are saying is Marvel shouldn't be too quick to abandon less popular characters, because that risks them staying unpopular.

Conversely, I think even A-listers like F4 (trying not to biased here) shouldn't be immune to cancellation if they never really become good again.

And I'm not trying to bash anyone, but fans could be more open to trying new characters out at least a little

Same, the texture doesn't help either.

In Italy I hear figs go on pizzas, so maybe that's more to your predilection.

[Chris0013]

Essentially what I and others are saying is Marvel shouldn't be too quick to abandon less popular characters, because that risks them staying unpopular.

Conversely, I think even A-listers like F4 (trying not to biased here) shouldn't be immune to cancellation if they never really become good again.

And I'm not trying to bash anyone, but fans could be more open to trying new characters out at least a little

That is why I say they should do a Marvel Fanfare/Marvel Spotlight type book again...rotating creative teams telling stories of the characters who aren't in regular books or who have not been seen for a while.

[chicago_bastard]

Again DD's sales were better than Greer's or Sheer's in both highs and lows.

See, even after this push it's still not making great sales.It's mediocre.

The point is Black Cat and Spider-woman have excellent creative teams, great presence in other comics and Black Cat has big team-ups and is front and centre in an infinity stone line-up and the sell the similar to Iron Man in his lows.Black Cat is being pushed a lot as well.

Tony all time lows = Black cat's and Spider-woman's highs

Tony's solo has a mediocre creative team at best and is completely disjointed from the rest of the MU.Cap is doing better than these 3 and that's a bad ongoing as well.

Wrong, they get chances because they are "better".In that time race and gender were factors, I'm not denying that in the slightest.But there are plenty of straight white Male characters who would replace them if they were selling bad.That's why they get chances, because they sold good.

Again Spider-woman has had semi-consistent solo's for how long now?She has had no highs but so many lows.Maybe give that solo to another smaller character now.It's not the quality of the book that's bad in the current run either.
Black Cat should get 3-5 more years before the give another one a chance.

What you don't get is these aren't slumps for these characters, these are their avg. or highs.Whereas Tony, steve,DD etc. are slumps.
Slumps is when a comic sells much worse than it usually does.These guys have never sold better than this, that's what you are mussing.

Oh you have the sales numbers for all these books in the 1970s? Cool, please share the source, I'd love to read it.

I'm not an expert on Jessica's publishing history but wasn't she killed off at the end of her first ongoing in the 80s and then didn't get a new series until some ten years ago? So Matt, Tony et al. had almost three decades of building a fanbase over her.

What you don't get is that characters that got the short end of the stick for decades can't close the gap in a few years. If Matt's book got cancelled in the 70s due to its low sales he would never have reached the "highs" you are bragging about.

[Seren]

Oh you have the sales numbers for all these books in the 1970s? Cool, please share the source, I'd love to read it.

I'm not an expert on Jessica's publishing history but wasn't she killed off at the end of her first ongoing in the 80s and then didn't get a new series until some ten years ago? So Matt, Tony et al. had almost three decades of building a fanbase over her.

What you don't get is that characters that got the short end of the stick for decades can't close the gap in a few years. If Matt's book got cancelled in the 70s due to its low sales he would never have reached the "highs" you are bragging about.

All of this. She had almost 30 years without a solo and outside of a random appearance here and there she was basically non existent on comics. I'm glad Bendis made her awesome again

That said, I think with Marvel's descent push of this latest run, Jessica's fanbase is growing and I think marvel sees that.

[Matternativ]

Not to mention that we started talking about all of this because we were talking about the possibility of her showing up on screen somewhere and no one really gives a s*it about comic sales when it comes to that.
Or how many Mobius Books have broken sales records lately?