IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2021

[Reviresco]

No, not two Rev!!! Marvel can barely keep ONE Atlantis from exploding every year XD

There has just been so many puzzle pieces that trying to make it all fit doesn't work, hence why in my personal canon I just discard whatever doesn't make sense even though I do acknowledge all of the comics in some way when discussing them.

You know I LOVE Pak and his writing so much, but even I have to say I wish the Amazon/Atlantean thing was forgotten (for the most part is seems to have been) because 1) it treads too closely to DC's Atlantis vs Amazon arc during one of their events, flashpoint? I think it was. I recall seeing the animation a while back. 2) Marvel really doesn't have an Amazon like DC and to have one just be an enemy to Atlantis makes about as much sense as Wakanda vs Atlantis.

It's really a shame there isn't a clear cut timeline, but with the shifting timescale in the modern day that makes sense, I just wish there was something from Atlantis pre-cataclysm - end of WWll

LOL! Twice the destruction!

I agree, it makes things complicated AND DC did have an Atlantis Amazon war for Flashpoint -- Not sure which came first, though I'm betting on Marvel. ;p However, it was was such a funny story, it is still my favorite.

Even if Marvel did have a clear timeline up to FF#1, it wouldn't matter, because writers keep retconning stuff, like Aaron's asinine One Million BC Avengers, which I believe predates the Celestials and makes the Norse gods older than the Cataclysm.

[ImperiusWrecked]

LOL! Twice the destruction!

I agree, it makes things complicated AND DC did have an Atlantis Amazon war for Flashpoint -- Not sure which came first, though I'm betting on Marvel. ;p However, it was was such a funny story, it is still my favorite.

Even if Marvel did have a clear timeline up to FF#1, it wouldn't matter, because writers keep retconning stuff, like Aaron's asinine One Million BC Avengers, which I believe predates the Celestials and makes the Norse gods older than the Cataclysm.

Rev, please I try to forget Aaron's writing exists in any form, LMAO. I just get so upset thinking about how little he grasps Namor's character and how I will have to read those comics next year. the whole BC Avengers was so freaking stupid. What is the point of it? the whole reason why people like the characters of today is they were formed by their origins not because of some predated history.

I love the Love & War arc in Hercules, I LOVE the Herc and Namor bromance, LOL. It's so fun when they get together and Pak writes them so well. I just wasn't as sold on the amazon vs atlantean war by calling the atlanteans cheap? for not paying something, I can't remember exactly. lol



I wish we got more fun team ups like this again!

[Doombot]

One Million BC Avengers is easily one of the stupidest ideas I've ever read in comics, and comics have tons of stupid ideas. What is the point of a One Million Years BC Avengers? To say that the Avengers is a pre-ordained concept? That it will emerge over and over in any era? The "Avengers" are destiny? Jesus Christ it makes my head hurt.

[Reviresco]

Rev, please I try to forget Aaron's writing exists in any form, LMAO. I just get so upset thinking about how little he grasps Namor's character and how I will have to read those comics next year. the whole BC Avengers was so freaking stupid. What is the point of it? the whole reason why people like the characters of today is they were formed by their origins not because of some predated history.

I love the Love & War arc in Hercules, I LOVE the Herc and Namor bromance, LOL. It's so fun when they get together and Pak writes them so well. I just wasn't as sold on the amazon vs atlantean war by calling the atlanteans cheap? for not paying something, I can't remember exactly. lol



I wish we got more fun team ups like this again!

LOL! You just can't go wrong with Herc and Namor.

One Million BC Avengers is easily one of the stupidest ideas I've ever read in comics, and comics have tons of stupid ideas. What is the point of a One Million Years BC Avengers? To say that the Avengers is a pre-ordained concept? That it will emerge over and over in any era? The "Avengers" are destiny? Jesus Christ it makes my head hurt.

Yes, but only Aaron's favorites are the pre-ordained, re-occurring Avengers -- despite whatever their origins are supposed to be. Have to agree, one of the worst things I've read in comics.

You know ... every pantheon has a creation myth, which of course, would predate the civilization of its worshipers. In the MCU, I wonder if the various pantheons don't create / retcon their own specific pocket dimensions of history? I mean, the Asgardians (who are frankly a mess as far as their 'history') actually DO have Cataclysms, i.e. Ragnaroks.

[Doombot]

The Asgardian Ragnarok cycle was broken and shown to be false, something the Asgardians were subjected to by other parasitic gods who fed off the energies of the falsely created chaos. It was an interesting way to deal with everyone and their mother wanting to do a Ragnarok story in Thor books.

As for the MCU, who the hell knows, the MCU has places like Jotunheim being literally another planet...

[Thor-El]

The whole "very white art" or "white era" thing is supremely strange to me. This isn't "white" art, it's early 20th century American art in the Western tradition of illustration. Calling "white" art puts an unfair, almost accusatory slant on it,

It certainly wasn't my intention sounding "supremely strange" or "accusatory" by pointing out that Leyendecker's 20th Century American Art is very "white" I.e. European or Caucasian Art. The same way I would have pointed out it is very African-American art or "black" if someone posts Alma Thomas pieces or it is very Oriental art if someone posts Takashi Murakami art. Perhaps I should have worded it different and said "Caucasian" or "European" instead of "white" , I apologize if I offended anyone. And what I meant with "white era" was that at that time Caucasian or European art expressions were the ones prevalent in most media in the United States. As we all know the depiction of the world in the movies, commercials, paintings, most of the characters were Caucasian. We are living another era presently, we see it in the changes in Hollywood were the leading man and woman is more often becoming a POC or you have a mixed couple, Caucasian and African American or Caucasian and Oriental or a POC couple.

My point in bringing up the culture in Leyendecker's artwork wasn't to accuse anyone but to express my opinion of how much Namor belongs to that same culture, that same art and that era. That to me is not worth changing the visual ethnicity of a character that belongs to that era to adjust to this new era sensibilities because it looses too much. But that is a subject for debate that I don't want to bring back into this particular post. I'm just explaining my post because of the "accusation" of it being "supremely strange" or "accusatory" it seems like it needs to be explained.

[ImperiusWrecked]

As Doombot said I don't think that discussing the merits of what type of art Leyendecker has is appropriate for this thread. Namor does not belong to any culture because the sub-mariners are a made up race. You are free to imagine Namor however you want just as is everyone else is free to imagine Namor as they want.

If you are looking for an era in which I feel Namor's art/emotions invoke then why not the Art Deco era which was popular at the time and is what Leyendecker was a pioneer of. Art Deco is type of art, calling things white or black art is not appropriate imo.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Speaking of Art Deco, I know these have probably been posted before but I greatly admire Mel Uran's art style. I loved hearing the story of how they met with Everett's daughter at a Con once who greatly enjoyed their art.

[ImperiusWrecked]

A question to everyone; What is your one MOST FAVORITE piece of Namor art, what art do you enjoy the most?

For me it is this piece by Terese Nielsen in which Prince Namor uses the Horn of Proteus to summon Giganto.



Edit to add: Why I enjoy this art is because it gives off such a great feeling of Namor being an otherworldly being, I love the motion of him breaking from the waves and the colors add to this eerie aura of mystery and strangeness. I feel this really captures how Namor is a prince from an underwater realm.

[Thor-El]

As Doombot said I don't think that discussing the merits of what type of art Leyendecker has is appropriate for this thread. Namor does not belong to any culture because the sub-mariners are a made up race. You are free to imagine Namor however you want just as is everyone else is free to imagine Namor as they want.

If you are looking for an era in which I feel Namor's art/emotions invoke then why not the Art Deco era which was popular at the time and is what Leyendecker was a pioneer of. Art Deco is type of art, calling things white or black art is not appropriate imo.

Except that I am talking about art as an expression of a race and culture in a specific point in time and Art Deco is neither race nor culture. And I didn't want to keep argue this with you but if you comment on my post what else can I do? Namor does belong to a culture because his father has a last name given by his creator, and it is a Scottish last name. And even though Atlantis wasn't named by Bill Everett as Namor's mother's heritage, it was by Stan Lee and it was implied heavily in comics and cartoons during the 60s the culture was Greco-Roman. Bill Everett even continued working on the title under Stan Lee's editorship during those times. And those two creators to me are the most important and the ones I will always base the character on.

[ImperiusWrecked]

You can view Namor however you want.

I can view Namor however I want.

We can agree to disagree on this matter.

I've provided evidence directly from the comics (not cartoons bc cartoons are a different medium and one that was already discussed) and shown proof that other creators such as Saladin Ahmed, and other contributors, have provided to the character over his 80 years of existence. I have provided panels directly from Everett and others. I have discussed why my thoughts are valid. I don't appreciate being told that an art style must be white art, it is an art style popularized by a white gay man, should I infer that Namor is gay as well? No. Because Leyendecker did not create Namor.

It is art by a different artist. Everett had his own style, and while many people can bring up the similarities in tone/feeling/inspiration of Leyendecker and Everett's Namor it is not beyond our realm of understanding to know that Namor was created at the heels of the Art Deco movement and thus it would be possible that an artist such as Everett would have a hand in being inspired by the art around him at the time period. That does not mean Namor is a white character because of it. He is bircial and the fact remains that if you swapped out Leonard McKenzie for any normal earth human it would not change the fact that his human father side has a very minimal impact on his character OTHER than the fact that Namor has a half human side. Aquaman the movie has already demonstrated this fact very well by having a the father be different than the comics. It made no difference, all that mattered was that the character was half human.

I am honestly done with this conversation and I have attempted to steer it into a new subject so that we can actually focus on the character in a pleasant manner. If you want to bring up this subject again then that is your choice.

[Thor-El]

I was going to answer all above but this is exhausting and in the end what's the use. I already apologized for saying the word "white" in relation to Leyendecker art. This used to be a very nice thread that has turned toxic, at least to me and the reason why I don't participate much lately.

[Doombot]

My point in bringing up the culture in Leyendecker's artwork wasn't to accuse anyone but to express my opinion of how much Namor belongs to that same culture, that same art and that era. That to me is not worth changing the visual ethnicity of a character that belongs to that era to adjust to this new era sensibilities because it looses too much. But that is a subject for debate that I don't want to bring back into this particular post. I'm just explaining my post because of the "accusation" of it being "supremely strange" or "accusatory" it seems like it needs to be explained.

When I used the terms "unfair" and "almost accusatory" I was not talking about you, Thor-El the person, I was talking about the argument you're making, which I've heard before. And what I meant by it is, by taking any random artist's work, and because they happen to be white, they are now part of this specific group, that represents for this specific thing, almost like they now get a flag and are told you stand here on this side of the line. Those other artists, they stand over there on that side of the line, with "black" art, or over there with "asian" art. As if Takashi Murakami would consider himself an "Oriental" artist simply because he's Japanese. Art and culture just don't work like that.

To be fair, I do understand what you're trying to say. But saying culture and art are an expression of race, while on some level is true, is a gigantic, vague and unwieldy argument that I don't see is very helpful in discussing Namor The Sub-Mariner. Again, I'm not accusing you, Thor-El, of anything, and I don't want you to feel that way, I was just responding to the arguments in the discussion.

[Doombot]

I was going to answer all above but this is exhausting and in the end what's the use. I already apologized for saying the word "white" in relation to Leyendecker art. This used to be a very nice thread that has turned toxic, at least to me and the reason why I don't participate much lately.

I really hope you stay Thor-El, you're one of the few people who passionately enjoy Namor. I can't help but feel you see this thread as now toxic because of me, because we've had disagreements before that you saw as more personal attacks than I intended. I love Namor and Thor, I like having discussions here about all kinds of topics, even if many people here don't agree with me all the time. If we all agreed, what would be the point of talking? I think you should stay, Thor-El, keep posting, we need you around here. I am not attacking you personally, I don't think anyone else is either, I'm trying to engage with you.

[Thor-El]

I really hope you stay Thor-El, you're one of the few people who passionately enjoy Namor. I can't help but feel you see this thread as now toxic because of me, because we've had disagreements before that you saw as more personal attacks than I intended. I love Namor and Thor, I like having discussions here about all kinds of topics, even if many people here don't agree with me all the time. If we all agreed, what would be the point of talking? I think you should stay, Thor-El, keep posting, we need you around here. I am not attacking you personally, I don't think anyone else is either, I'm trying to engage with you.

Thank you Doombot. I understand and appreciate this post. It might be this post the one that makes me stay. And no it isn't you the only one that grates my nerves, I probably grate other peoples nerves too. And I also appreciate how much you, Reviresco, Phoenix, IW and the rest are passionate about Namor even though there are days I don't feel I have the energy to engage in a discussion. And by the way I loved the artwork that you posted some time ago and I wish you would post more, its great that you do animation, and you are right as fellow Atlanteans we should be brothers in arms.