IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2021

[ImperiusWrecked]

In my own little head cannon and stories, I'd have Namor choose Sue to be the ambassador for his newly revealed Atlantis. Her being one of the very few humans he would trust to enter the new city and represent humanity. It would also hint at and play into Sue's interest in ancient civilizations and archaeology, something I still enjoyed about her portrayal in Fantastic Four: The End.

Sue as a friend to Atlanteans and helping relations would be a good way to utilize her and give her something that is her own thing in the FF. Outposts could be made like the one in Marvel Adventures Fantastic Four #24, with the Trident Station as a meeting point between the land and sea people.

[Doombot]

These questions would all be great for worldbuilding Atlantis if writers ever took a chance to do so, however all we have is evidence of what was already written. I've never even seen them speak of the Fall in any way except a factual evidence, as if it was something that just happened in their past, how they feel about it is definitely something interesting to discuss/theorize.

The issue with Lemuria is we have some accounts of them being offshoot atlanteans who worshipped Set, possible that they left Atlantis/Neptune to practice their own religion, and other accounts have Atlanteans pre Fall and Lemurians at war with each other. I honestly would rather it be the former than the latter. I mean two cities/countries that have a world ending event on opposite sides/oceans of the world? it doesn't work logistically in my head.

Also another thing to discuss would be Suma-Ket who set himself up as a God King, he had successfully tricked the Atlanteans before he was locked away, whatever happened to that sect of followers because iirc he didn't do it with the serpent crown so it would have been his own charisma/words that worked against the people. Obviously there was a lot of dark magic involved as well.

I've thought about Suma-Ket as well. He seems independent of any mythos so far explained to us. I imagine him as a priest in pre-Cataclysm Atlantis that was somehow corrupted, becoming a dark sorcerer, worshipping or communicating with Elder or Outer Gods. Creating a new cult or following that causes strife in Atlantis. Eventually his darkness is discovered and he is cursed and/or banished, maybe a punishment or a battle is the cause of his strange demonic appearance. He's then doomed to wander, with his followers, unable to die or ever rest. Stuck between the world of the living and the Grey Waters. Letting himself become more consumed by the darkness that corrupted him. He could easily be an almost Tolkien-esque villain. Like a Witch-King or even Sauron himself.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I've thought about Suma-Ket as well. He seems independent of any mythos so far explained to us. I imagine him as a priest in pre-Cataclysm Atlantis that was somehow corrupted, becoming a dark sorcerer, worshipping or communicating with Elder or Outer Gods. Creating a new cult or following that causes strife in Atlantis. Eventually his darkness is discovered and he is cursed and/or banished, maybe a punishment or a battle is the cause of his strange demonic appearance. He's then doomed to wander, with his followers, unable to die or ever rest. Stuck between the world of the living and the Grey Waters. Letting himself become more consumed by the darkness that corrupted him. He could easily be an almost Tolkien-esque villain. Like a Witch-King or even Sauron himself.

I've had similar thoughts, not pre cataclysm ones, but like him being an Atlantean in a high position of power who slowly becomes more corrupted as he takes on more dark power. I really like the way you put it though. Suma-Ket would be a great recurring villain if anyone could remember him outside of us fans, lol. I really feel that arc in the 90s was so short, it could easily have been double the number of issues to fit in more world building, and also explain how Artys-Gran gained her body switching manipulative abilities.

[Doombot]

That arc was way too short, and considering the mess that 90s run devolved into, it's a real shame.

[Reviresco]

Speaking of Atlantean religions, or Atlantean world building in general, what are everyone's thoughts on it? What ideas would you have to change it? Whom do you consider to be important to the Atlantean Pantheon? Lemurian were seen worshipping the serpent god Set, would that have any impact on how undersea people view another undersea people's religion?

For my own answer I highly consider that Neptune, Cleito, are the Father and Mother of all Atlanteans, and that Atlanteans pray to Neptune for good fortune and favor, and they pray to Cleito for blessings and protection. I also include Evenor within that as a lesser deity as the Guardian of the past/knowledge.

I think Neptune is the main deity of the present Atlanteans, but he's a bit problematic, i.e. he's not old enough, IMO, and the newest of their gods. Neptune seems to be more of the war god / protector for the Atlanteans. When he lived among them, he was helping fight Hickman's Old Kings and the Faceless Ones, IIRC.

The Lemurians are a bit of a head-scratcher, are they offshoots of Atlanteans? Did they have their own independent "fall" and miraculous survival as water breathers after the destruction as Lemuria? Does that mean the worshipped Set before of after the fall? The Deviant Lemurians always did as far as I know, but did the Atlantean Lemurian switch to worship of Set? Do they still? They don't seem to be an inherently evil race, so can they worship Set still? What goes on in that city exactly, do they have a current ruler?

I think the Lemurians have been established as an offshoot of the Atlanteans. I thought they picked up the Set worship when they settled in Lemuria (which IIRC, worshiped Set pre-Catacylsm) and found the Serpent Crown. The Deviants have nothing to do with Set, I believe.

The last I've seen Lemuria is in Waid's Hulk series, where Attuma was ruling??? But I think he was overthrown.

For the Atlanteans themselves, they seem to be devout worshippers of Neptune, to what extent and their larger worldview seems to be in the dark. Do they have ancestor worship? Do they see the Kingdom of Atlantis before the fall as something positive or negative, are they seen as cursed or victims? What about the dark centuries that follow the fall?

How do they factor in Neptune with older gods and the many other sea deities, not to mention the deeper darker primordial or "outer" gods?

This is the great unexplored area of Atlantean religion, IMO. We have hints, like Suma Ket, the Faceless Ones, Hickman's Old Kings, the Daughters of Pontus, the Aqueos and Ryleh, and countless sealed away 'horrors.' Not to mention, leftovers from the Hyborian Age.

I don't get much of a feel of the Atlanteans' feeling for Pre-Cataclysm Atlantis, except Namor repeatedly express relief that his ancestors fled the surface. Yet, they also think of themselves as the guardians / repository of PCA knowledge, magic, etc. -- but better. LOL!

These questions would all be great for worldbuilding Atlantis if writers ever took a chance to do so, however all we have is evidence of what was already written. I've never even seen them speak of the Fall in any way except a factual evidence, as if it was something that just happened in their past, how they feel about it is definitely something interesting to discuss/theorize.

The issue with Lemuria is we have some accounts of them being offshoot atlanteans who worshipped Set, possible that they left Atlantis/Neptune to practice their own religion, and other accounts have Atlanteans pre Fall and Lemurians at war with each other. I honestly would rather it be the former than the latter. I mean two cities/countries that have a world ending event on opposite sides/oceans of the world? it doesn't work logistically in my head.

Hmmm. Are there accounts of the water breathing Lemurians worshiping Set before splitting off? Yes, PC Atlantis and Lemuria were at war with each other repeatedly. Before the Eternals retcon, their conflict was responsible for the Cataclysm. Now, I believe, both continents sank because of the Celestials. Not sure how the war between fits. I think it still happened, but it isn't the main reason.

[Doombot]

What does too young mean for a God? Are you assuming that once the Ancient Greeks arrived on the scene that Neptune/Poseidon sprang into existence? Ancient Atlantis is far, far older than Ancient Greece, and Neptune was well established then, so how old is too young? This is the problem with all Gods in the Marvel Universe, that can somehow actually exist amongst humanity. Were they created by the people that worshipped them or vice versa?

[ImperiusWrecked]

I think Neptune is the main deity of the present Atlanteans, but he's a bit problematic, i.e. he's not old enough, IMO, and the newest of their gods. Neptune seems to be more of the war god / protector for the Atlanteans. When he lived among them, he was helping fight Hickman's Old Kings and the Faceless Ones, IIRC.


I think the Lemurians have been established as an offshoot of the Atlanteans. I thought they picked up the Set worship when they settled in Lemuria (which IIRC, worshiped Set pre-Catacylsm) and found the Serpent Crown. The Deviants have nothing to do with Set, I believe.

The last I've seen Lemuria is in Waid's Hulk series, where Attuma was ruling??? But I think he was overthrown.


This is the great unexplored area of Atlantean religion, IMO. We have hints, like Suma Ket, the Faceless Ones, Hickman's Old Kings, the Daughters of Pontus, the Aqueos and Ryleh, and countless sealed away 'horrors.' Not to mention, leftovers from the Hyborian Age.

I don't get much of a feel of the Atlanteans' feeling for Pre-Cataclysm Atlantis, except Namor repeatedly express relief that his ancestors fled the surface. Yet, they also think of themselves as the guardians / repository of PCA knowledge, magic, etc. -- but better. LOL!


Hmmm. Are there accounts of the water breathing Lemurians worshiping Set before splitting off? Yes, PC Atlantis and Lemuria were at war with each other repeatedly. Before the Eternals retcon, their conflict was responsible for the Cataclysm. Now, I believe, both continents sank because of the Celestials. Not sure how the war between fits. I think it still happened, but it isn't the main reason.

My own theories/headcanons about Neptune is that he is actually much older than he is, and his image just gets revamped over and over, he has much older names but his form is chosen by belief etc. and over time people settled on him looking like Neptune/is Neptune so that's the form he takes. However that's just my way of explaining how Neptune is. I def think the Lemurians being Atlanteans who later splintered off into being Lemurians makes much more sense than anything else.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Namor the Sub-Mariner Sculpture by MudBrosDigital
To view more: https://instagram.com/p/B4hsG3GDWNG/

[ImperiusWrecked]

What does too young mean for a God? Are you assuming that once the Ancient Greeks arrived on the scene that Neptune/Poseidon sprang into existence? Ancient Atlantis is far, far older than Ancient Greece, and Neptune was well established then, so how old is too young? This is the problem with all Gods in the Marvel Universe, that can somehow actually exist amongst humanity. Were they created by the people that worshipped them or vice versa?

See another one of my theories is that Atlantis came first, and its tales and stories were passed down which is how Greeks came to know of Neptune/Poseidon and they used him, so if anything Ancient Greece was modeled after Atlantis. Of course Atlantis is fictional so it can really be anything at all. Also Plato's description of Atlantis is very vague so lots of room for interpretation but it was stated that it was long before the Greek's time.

[Doombot]

See another one of my theories is that Atlantis came first, and its tales and stories were passed down which is how Greeks came to know of Neptune/Poseidon and they used him, so if anything Ancient Greece was modeled after Atlantis. Of course Atlantis is fictional so it can really be anything at all. Also Plato's description of Atlantis is very vague so lots of room for interpretation but it was stated that it was long before the Greek's time.

This is the only way one can interpret it, at least in the Marvel Universe. Atlantis is thousands of years older than Ancient Greece, and therefore all of the Mediterranean societies. Atlantis would have been, in my opinion, the final step westward and greatest achievement of the proto-European people, the foundation of the societies to follow.

[Reviresco]

What does too young mean for a God? Are you assuming that once the Ancient Greeks arrived on the scene that Neptune/Poseidon sprang into existence? Ancient Atlantis is far, far older than Ancient Greece, and Neptune was well established then, so how old is too young? This is the problem with all Gods in the Marvel Universe, that can somehow actually exist amongst humanity. Were they created by the people that worshiped them or vice versa?

Yep, all questions / problems with the Marvel pantheons -- not to mention, the whole are they gods or space aliens mess. Right. I'm saying that Neptune is a Greek god, and both water and PC Atlantis predates him by quite a bit. Also, he isn't even the oldest of the Greek gods. There's the Titans and Cronos. There's Thalassa and Pontus and Oceanus.

Even in the MU lore, Neptune arrives to help the water breathing Atlanteans fight older gods and supernatural creatures.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Atlantis was thousands of years advanced long before any other society, before its fall, and I am not sure of the Wakanda timeline but it would stand that Wakanda was after its time as well, we really don't have a hard time line of events in the MU, unless someone knows of a grid or timeline image from a comic or book that I am unware of?

After it's fall all people had were it's stories and by the time the Greeks or other human societies came into play they had faded into myth.

It was said Atlanteans took hundreds of years to rebuild underwater iirc, but even then they never regained their former glory but adapted to their new world, still I believe Atlantis in the current day should still be just as advanced or further advanced than anything else on the Marvel earth. So it's infuriating to see Atlantis constantly be shown as less advanced.

[Reviresco]

Atlantis was thousands of years advanced long before any other society, before its fall, and I am not sure of the Wakanda timeline but it would stand that Wakanda was after its time as well, we really don't have a hard time line of events in the MU, unless someone knows of a grid or timeline image from a comic or book that I am unware of?

After it's fall all people had were it's stories and by the time the Greeks or other human societies came into play they had faded into myth.

It was said Atlanteans took hundreds of years to rebuild underwater iirc, but even then they never regained their former glory but adapted to their new world, still I believe Atlantis in the current day should still be just as advanced or further advanced than anything else on the Marvel earth. So it's infuriating to see Atlantis constantly be shown as less advanced.

Yes, it is. The problem is all the retcons and boosting other books.

Namor's Atlantis WAS the oldest and most advanced society in the MU -- except they never seemed to figure out how to keep safe from bombing. LOL. Remember, according to the FF #1 annual, Atlantis is the only civilization to conquer the surface world -- in an afternoon! Actually, Marvels retconned / added in the Golden Age story to make that the SECOND time Atlantis took the surface world. Then Lee and Kirby started adding stuff i.e. the Inhumans, etc. Then Thomas brought in the Hyborian Age. And then Kirby brought in the Eternals and the Celestials. Originally, Wakanda wasn't old, and it was T'challa, much like Doom with Latveria, who made Wakanda the advanced Technological Jungle. I think it was Priest who changed that and tried to make it old, but still not older than PC Atlantis, which even predates the Hyborian age.

The only "timelines" we have are stuff like the Marvel Universe Saga, which in turn got revamped by Waid's History of the Marvel Universe, and Saga of Sub-Mariner.

[Reviresco]

My own theories/headcanons about Neptune is that he is actually much older than he is, and his image just gets revamped over and over, he has much older names but his form is chosen by belief etc. and over time people settled on him looking like Neptune/is Neptune so that's the form he takes. However that's just my way of explaining how Neptune is. I def think the Lemurians being Atlanteans who later splintered off into being Lemurians makes much more sense than anything else.

I think that works for us, but not for the MU. They've got so many pantheons, which have interacted with Earth and the cosmos. Though, there was the complication with the Atlantis / Amazon war from Pak and VanLente. I'm still not sure how that fits in.

See another one of my theories is that Atlantis came first, and its tales and stories were passed down which is how Greeks came to know of Neptune/Poseidon and they used him, so if anything Ancient Greece was modeled after Atlantis. Of course Atlantis is fictional so it can really be anything at all. Also Plato's description of Atlantis is very vague so lots of room for interpretation but it was stated that it was long before the Greek's time.

But Plato's Atlantis doesn't fit the pre-Hyborian, PC Atlantis. Though, it may fit the Atlantis / Amazon war. Perhaps there are TWO surface Atlantis?

This is the only way one can interpret it, at least in the Marvel Universe. Atlantis is thousands of years older than Ancient Greece, and therefore all of the Mediterranean societies. Atlantis would have been, in my opinion, the final step westward and greatest achievement of the proto-European people, the foundation of the societies to follow.

Because they pulled in the REH stuff, and then Kirby's Eternals, Marvel's Atlantis is 10s or 100s of thousands of years older than Ancient Greece. Like two Deluges older.

[ImperiusWrecked]

But Plato's Atlantis doesn't fit the pre-Hyborian, PC Atlantis. Though, it may fit the Atlantis / Amazon war. Perhaps there are TWO surface Atlantis?

No, not two Rev!!! Marvel can barely keep ONE Atlantis from exploding every year XD

There has just been so many puzzle pieces that trying to make it all fit doesn't work, hence why in my personal canon I just discard whatever doesn't make sense even though I do acknowledge all of the comics in some way when discussing them.

You know I LOVE Pak and his writing so much, but even I have to say I wish the Amazon/Atlantean thing was forgotten (for the most part is seems to have been) because 1) it treads too closely to DC's Atlantis vs Amazon arc during one of their events, flashpoint? I think it was. I recall seeing the animation a while back. 2) Marvel really doesn't have an Amazon like DC and to have one just be an enemy to Atlantis makes about as much sense as Wakanda vs Atlantis.

It's really a shame there isn't a clear cut timeline, but with the shifting timescale in the modern day that makes sense, I just wish there was something from Atlantis pre-cataclysm - end of WWll