IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2021

[Reviresco]

Holy cow. I go away for a day and the thread blows up.

I wasn't even caught up from the previous day. But it is good to see people posting. : )

[Ravin' Ray]

Yes, this is from Marvelocity. Its a two page spread in the book iirc.

Ross never fails to impress. BTW that panel with the "THOOM!" SFX was used in Namor's 80's Deluxe Handbook entry. I recognized it immediately.

[Oberon]

If the religion of Atlantis is anything like ancient Greece and Rome, men were not to have more than one wife. Although it still sometimes happened, depending on what era, it was taboo like it it today.

No one is even hinting that Namor should not be attracted to human woman, it's that his specific infatuation with Sue Richards is utterly spent and boring, in my opinion anyway, and that the only reason it continues is a lack of creativity on Marvel's part and an inability to let things progress beyond a "status quo". Namor has had great loves, and marriages, before and after meeting Sue. Loves that were actually engaged and intimate, not unrequited immature crushes like with Sue, but writers can't seem to ever let it go. Why isn't Namor pining after Dorma or some other legitimate lost love instead of Sue? I'll tell you why, it's because this all happens in other heroes books and never in Namor's own. He's the perpetual guest star and is pigeon holed and always made to stay a certain way. Namor can never develop beyond this relationship because he's never in his own book.

As for Namor loving Sue because he's secretly still in love with Betty Dean, yeesh, that's even more messed up than just being obsessed with Sue in the first place.



Well J.C. Leyendecker was a gay man, but him being gay and seeing men as sexually attractive, doesn't make his art any less beautiful. Leyendecker was one of the preeminent artists of the American "Golden Age' of illustration.

The whole "very white art" or "white era" thing is supremely strange to me. This isn't "white" art, it's early 20th century American art in the Western tradition of illustration. Calling "white" art puts an unfair, almost accusatory slant on it, the same as calling it "gay" art because a gay man illustrated it. These are topics best left outside a thread discussing Namor the Sub-Mariner lol.

I'm not mad but it seems like you're putting words in my mouth.

I did not say Namor was secretly still in love with Betty, just that she reminds him of a surface woman he loved.

With Leyendecker, it seems like you're thinking, hinting that I may have a problem with his beautiful art because he was gay (which I knew but didn't mention). Polyamorus/Polysensual descriptors of myself would allow for that beauty to be seen (or more!).
also I used the term 'homo-erotic' which is a little more sophisticated than saying "gay art".
the word 'homosexual' itself is a clinical term that only came up in the late 19th century, which began the increased stigma to that community. It wasn't always considered so deviant, until the 20th century (DSM manual etc).
Clearly we like different things

But I'm 66 and have been reading Namor since the '60s. The old cartoon was / is cherished. I have my own way of being invested in this character.
I certainly would like Namor to be with Dorma, I love that character, but she is gone.
I really, really did not like Namor and Marrinna (sic). I always felt that it was forced in some ways. Perhaps, it was her more alien look and of course she reverted to a monster and needed to be slain.
You can like Namor with who you like, and so will I.
Some time ago, I did go with the idea that there are more symbolic things about the Sue/Namor pairing, that really transcend normal comic book romances.
Since we diverted into the gay territory, maybe Sue and Namor is just another way of saying
The love that doth not speak it's name.

Namor and Sue are never boring for me, but they are often misunderstood. Yes, I think if you could 'get' what I see, the transcendent thing, you might understand.
They are the intersection point between our world and that 'other' that Namor is. I think Morrison got that in the mini series he did. That sense of alien/other about Namor.

Hey if any writer or creators would bring other ideas I would never NOT appreciate them. Yes, let Namor utilize Sue's pureness in the diplomatic arenas. Applaud!
Sure keep them out of the nasty etc, but I would miss that chemical reaction they have on each other. No, I don't think it is immature. I'm 66. Like I've never known anyone who had these strange compelling magnetisms and reacted.

I'm tired of those who believe that society demands purity in conventions like marriage.

I'm reading comic books for adventure, wherever it takes me and if anything, Reed is boring, boring, boring. I love their love, but remember he is 15, maybe more years her senior.
When will we all realized that nearly all 'serial/periodical' fiction or storytelling has to shake up characters and situations?
My son (39) loves wrestling and of course when I would tell him phoney, he would say

Wrestling is soap operas for men (all the weird stories in between the actual writing).
Maybe comic books is soap operas for comic book fans.
But I don't need that from you or any of you. It can be my own truth, no matter what.

[Doombot]

I didn't intend to twist your words in a negative way, so forgive me for that.

It's not that I don't or can't understand your views and ideas about the Namor and Sue relationship, it's just that I don't agree with it (and that's fine) For my part, if the Namor/Sue dynamic never showed up in comics again, I'd be okay with it. Any symbolism and meaning will still exist in all the previous exchanges with the characters. That dynamic doesn't need to be forever.

As for Leyendecker, the argument of whether something is "gay art" or "art done by a gay man", is similar to whether his art is "white art" vs "art done by a white man", and I think it derails the thread too much. We could go in circles with it, so I'll think I'll throw in the towel at this point. I'm not trying to imply you think one thing or the other, so you'll have to forgive me again. What I do know is that Namor should be so lucky as to have someone of Leyendecker's caliber create art of him.

I've also never liked Marrina. lol

While I don't love Marrina, I did have some ideas, and even did some character designs, for her two missing "children" or eggs that she produced from her union with Namor. I had been wracking my brain at the time on how to bring in some more mythical, folklore-ish, creatures to haunt the edges of the Atlantean's world. I wanted to try and come up with something akin to werewolves, but obviously aquatic. What I came up with was making Namor's lost children, his two sons by Marrina (the third having been revealed as a female and a strange creature indeed) being more traditional hybrids between the monstrous side of Marrina and Namor himself. They looked predatory but could also transform themselves into large aquatic beasts. I took this idea for his sons and married it with a bit of influence of the "Sawney Bean" case from Scotland, which is an infamous account of a cannibal couple raising children in a cave and living off cannibalizing victims in the Scottish countryside. Namor would hear accounts of strange disappearances in the outlands or edges of the Empire, of strange beings, not quite Atlantean or something more. Over the course of the story Namor would encounter these beings, who would turn out to be the children of his children, cannibals who can transform to a monstrous form, like werewolves, but less so than Namor's true children. Namor would have to track down the source and eventually find the two terrifying sons have made a hideous, cannibalistic colony in some dark cavern somewhere. Kidnapping and breeding with females of their choosing and then feeding their broods by preying on the innocent Atlanteans who live on the frontier of the Empire. Not only does Namor uncover this horror, but learns the progenitors of this nightmare are his own lost children. Maybe I'll dig out the old sketches and show you guys.

[Reviresco]

I've also never liked Marrina. lol

While I don't love Marrina, I did have some ideas, and even did some character designs, for her two missing "children" or eggs that she produced from her union with Namor. I had b wracking my brain on how to bring in some more mythical, folklore-ish, creatures to haunt the edges of the Atlantean's world. I wanted to try and come up with something akin to werewolves, but obviously aquatic. What I came up with was making Namor's lost children, his two sons by Marrina (the third having been revealed as a female and a strange creature indeed) being more traditional hybrids between the monstrous side of Marrina and Namor himself. They looked predatory but could also transform themselves into large aquatic beasts. I took this idea for his sons and married it with a bit of influence of the "Sawney Bean" case from Scotland, which is an infamous account of a cannibal couple raising children in a cave and living off cannibalizing victims in the Scottish countryside. Namor would hear accounts of strange disappearances in the outlands or edges of the Empire, of strange beings, not quite Atlantean or something more. Over the course of the story Namor would encounter these beings, who would turn out to be the children of his children, cannibals who can transform to a monstrous form, like werewolves, but less so than Namor's true children. Namor would have to track down the source and eventually find the two terrifying sons have made a hideous, cannibalistic colony in some dark cavern somewhere. Kidnapping and breeding with females of their choosing and then feeding their broods by preying on the innocent Atlanteans who live on the frontier of the Empire. Not only does Namor uncover this horror, but learns the progenitors of this nightmare are his own lost children. Maybe I'll dig out the old sketches and show you guys.

O_O

Man, that is some dark stuff. And in the tradition of torturing poor Namor. LOL! I could see it being a Mignola story easily, like that Subby story he refitted for Hellboy. Always up for seeing more of your art.

But, IIRC, Marrina's kids weren't Namor's. They were from the other Plodex. Of course, there's another story in a Namor annual that said they were Namor's.

Oh, and you aren't alone. I always thought Marrina didn't seem like Namor's type at all. And Walt Simonson didn't care for her either, which is why he killed her off.

[Doombot]

I'd have made sure the eggs were indeed confirmed as Namor's, just so I could torment him with it! (and also put to rest the Namor is sterile debate) "Sire, good news, you are healthy and fertile! ..but your children are devils eating other people in the dark. Yeah, sorry."

[K7P5V]

A question to everyone; What is your one MOST FAVORITE piece of Namor art, what art do you enjoy the most?

If it's only painted art that's being considered, then I hope this piece from Ke Sneller will be acceptable.
Anytime Namor brandishes the trident, I can't help but call it a masterpiece (IMHO):







If other types of art are allowed, then My Top (2) Two choices would be...

1. John Buscema (for Classic Namor):







2. Jae Lee (for modern-day/'90s Namor):

[ImperiusWrecked]

If it's only painted art that's considered, then I hope this piece from Ke Sneller will be acceptable.
Anytime Namor brandishes the trident, I can't help but call it a masterpiece (IMHO):







If other types of art are allowed, then My Top (2) Two choices would be...

1. John Buscema (for Classic Namor):







2. Jae Lee (for modern-day/'90s Namor):

Any art welcome! I LOVE that first one so much. And of course the others are classics!

[ImperiusWrecked]

I'd have made sure the eggs were indeed confirmed as Namor's, just so I could torment him with it! (and also put to rest the Namor is sterile debate) "Sire, good news, you are healthy and fertile! ..but your children are devils eating other people in the dark. Yeah, sorry."

LOL.

I love your ideas of the leviathan kids causing trouble etc. However iirc Namor had tracked down the last monster kid and it died in Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) Annual 4. I think it's heavily implied in that issue. Also not sure if they actually retconned the kids to be his, but the last I had read of it they were not his kids, of course we all like to ignore that sterile Namor plot, honestly it makes no sense the whole Llyron arc was so stupid, I have such loathing for it. However if someone wanted to explore Namor being sterile then that is a different story, like how Namora was sterile and had a clone daughter with Nita, but I'm 90% sure the only reason they threw that in was to make sure that people knew that Llyron was not Namor's child. Again. The whole plot was stupid. It was of course retconned in the Sub-Mariner mini series. However if a writer actually cared they could say that Marrina's eggs were actually Namor's kids too.

I think there is alot of great creatures that could be used, also I would love to see more sea myths/creatures from around the world be included in Sub-Mariner lore.

[Doombot]

I'd love to see all kinds of mythic beasts and folklore creatures in Namor stories, but I was looking for something specific, something werewolf-ish, and with the added horror of a family connection for Namor. I have lots of ideas to add happiness for Namor too, but when I want to torment him, I really want to pile it on lol.

[Reviresco]

I'd love to see all kinds of mythic beasts and folklore creatures in Namor stories, but I was looking for something specific, something werewolf-ish, and with the added horror of a family connection for Namor. I have lots of ideas to add happiness for Namor too, but when I want to torment him, I really want to pile it on lol.

Yes, that's what the comic writers do. ;p I still remember when Stuart Moore made Tha-Korr the king of the Aqueos.

I have a hard time imagining a happy Namor story.


When I think of aquatic werewolf, I think of a were shark. There's Nanaue, though I think King Shark has taken that name / part of the legend. But the real folk tales seem to have more of a shifter, than a half man half shark. And he has a freaking shark mouth on his back!!!

https://www.to-hawaii.com/legends/nanaue.php


https://www.*********.com/i/poster/A...63097181.LVTDI

This guy has some cool Hawaiian demi-gods and gods:

https://www.*********.com/people/man...Order=relevant


Arrgh. Replace asterisks with R E D B U B B L E

SHEESH!

[Doombot]

Yes, that's what the comic writers do. ;p I still remember when Stuart Moore made Tha-Korr the king of the Aqueos.

I have a hard time imagining a happy Namor story.

Oh god, don't put me in that category! I would not just torture Namor in a story without him recovering on some level as well. The Aqueos arc is so awful to me that I honestly just ignore it. I have my own thoughts and ideas about aquatic vampires, and the Aqueos ain't it. Then you add unceremoniously dragging Tha-Korr and turning him into some Orc on steroids and you can take that arc and toss it in the bin lol.

I can imagine a happy story with Namor finding new purpose, new strength in himself, and a new love. I would also let his powers evolve. Of course, I would make him pay for his happiness by putting him through the ringer, but heroes need challenge.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Oh I love the Aqueos arc, but if anything it was too short, I wish it hadn't been tied to x-men. Like Tha-Korr coming back to torment his grandson was such great angst material, not to mention it really solidified what was only hinted at in earlier decades of Tha-Korr being less than happy about his grandson being half human. We would get little lines like "must I see him" in Saga of the Sub-Mariner etc that showed even though Tha-Korr has Namor as his heir he isn't happy about it. Honestly I feel it would have been better if it wasn't tied to vampires but underwater, but rather its own underwater monster myth. Still the acknowledgment that Namor's childhood wasn't exactly perfect all the time due to the prejudices against him by other Atlanteans was an important highlight I feel.

The only thing I had major issues was is the first half of the series art, I hated the interior, it all looked so plastic and fake and I personally hate when they beef up Namor so much. Seriously wish it had Jae Lee on interiors like he did those covers which are still some of my most favorite Namor covers.





Honestly my dream series would be a Jae Lee one, he knows how to make underwater look hauntingly beautiful and scary.

[Oberon]

Okay, we're good.

You always have good ideas and analysis.

So it is funny that you have this idea with Marrina, as I was thinking about her alien and somewhat threatening origins.

Wouldn't it also make sense that her species has a connection to the the Darkness, Knull/ Symbiote stuff too?

I'm not sure how i would create a story or idea. It just strikes me that these creatures are terrifying, shape changing and could have a connection.

[Doombot]

As much as I love Jae Lee, covers aren't enough for me. When the interior art sucks, which it did, no cover can save the book. I'm glad Lee did those covers, but they're the only memorable thing about that storyline to me. Cynically, imo, turning Tha-Korr into a literal monster instead of a less than ideal King & parent is not the best way to explore that relationship. I wish someone would have made a story with elements that had a more serious look at how Tha-Korr's feelings and attitude would have affected Namor's view of himself and the world.