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  1. #151
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Oh I know you are only curious and not trying to start an argument. No problem. I like the question/Idea of Neptune being involved.

    I like the Idea of Neptune and Namor as a descendant and I think he should be prominent in the history, etc. just as Odin, Zeus etc are for Thor and Hercules. But I have never saw Neptune in the Namor comics I read and only rarely even heard Namor mention his name. So I guess I did not think about it as much as I should.

    It would be interesting if Neptune did help start this "new aquatic species" that later got termed Homo Mermanis by human scientists. Maybe Neptune with the Atlantean sorcerers turned the people into aquatic beings?
    Well, to Doombot, I am not saying that any of those; Inhumans, Eternals, et al, are determinants of Atlantean culture, tech, evolution, but that given the vast, vast, VAST amount of time

    there clearly was intercourse and intra species contact. No, I'm not saying that some great ancestor of the Inhumans had anything to do with "Atlantis".

    It was others on this list who have teased the idea of Neptune being somehow an ancestor, so I just ran with that.

    I'm not asking for Inhumans of varying sorts to be integrated into current Namor stories either. But those ones with Triton in the '60s were rather cool and I wouldn't mind them teaming up again.

    But I do think that someone using magic or tech to transform any amount of air breathers to water breathers a little hard to take too. Wouldn't they have been easier able to escape the island/continent with those resources? Again the hand of Eternals or Celestials seems to be involved possibly.

    So... there has to be another story here. I can't believe that somehow they just transformed at once, without big mojo happening.

    I just don't find it reasonable to assume that these varying groups of underwater/abied peoples did not meet and exchange over thousands of years.

    But clearly Marvel has indicated that Atlantis to some degree is derived from the previous Eternals/Celestials stuff. Heck, even Agatha Harkness has been indicated to be an ancient Atlantean - now that is a concept I am not supportive of at all.
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  2. #152
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    You all are my bright ray of sunlight. (Sings song: "You are my sunshine....." )
    Thank you! And I agree. You guys DO brighten my day.

    Also, my copy of the oversized Zdarsky Invaders collection FINALLY arrived. It is so pretty. Definitely help lift my mood yesterday.
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  3. #153
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    My real point would be that in this more dim past, let's say 2 or 3 thousand BC, most humans don't know that the descendants of Atlantis live under the sea, but "Gods" might, especially Neptune.
    So combining various legends we do know about Neptune, the Trident and way back, might it not be more than possible that Neptune procreated with 1 or more Atlantean women, especially even over the ages.
    So this is where Namor get's his lineage from Neptune. Namor spelled backwards is Roman, btw (you all knew that)
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Do you think Namor is a descendant of Neptune and how do you see that happening? Just curious, I am not trying to start an argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Oh I know you are only curious and not trying to start an argument. No problem. I like the question/Idea of Neptune being involved.

    I like the Idea of Neptune and Namor as a descendant and I think he should be prominent in the history, etc. just as Odin, Zeus etc are for Thor and Hercules. But I have never saw Neptune in the Namor comics I read and only rarely even heard Namor mention his name. So I guess I did not think about it as much as I should.

    It would be interesting if Neptune did help start this "new aquatic species" that later got termed Homo Mermanis by human scientists. Maybe Neptune with the Atlantean sorcerers turned the people into aquatic beings?
    I think we have mostly discussions rather than arguments. ;p And it's a great discussion question. Or rather two questions. Where did the water breathing Atlanteans come from, and is Namor a descendant of Neptune?

    For the second question, I think Namor has stated that a few times. I'm trying to remember if it was specifically stated in Sub-Mariner 17, when Namor went to renew the Sacred Trident in the abandoned Antarctic Atlantis. I know in that issue Namor stated that Neptune came to Atlantis to help the Atlanteans drive out ancient evil / Faceless Ones. This could also tie into the revolt against Suma-Ket when he showed up the first time waaaaaaay back. I think it also ties into Hickman's Kings of Old Atlantis storyline, as those three more aquatic races were the ancient evil that Neptune helped the Atlanteans drive out, IIRC. Regardless, Neptune lived amongst them while the war was going on AND afterwards. And since Greek gods, much less Neptune, are NOT celibate, I'm pretty sure there were some demi-gods created. Plus, the Sacred Trident was his gift to the royals, i.e. his descendants, when he left.

    Of course, there's also the Man-thing story tie in to Greek myths of Atlantis with Cleito, who had 5 twins with Neptune who ruled Atlantis.

    I don't question Atlantean rulers being descended from sea gods, but Neptune in particular. The Greek gods are too 'young' to fit in with the Hyborian Age origin of Atlantis. Something to ponder.


    As for the other question ... not sure I'll be able to get to that this afternoon. My personal preference is to keep the water breathing Atlantean origin as far away from the Celestials, the Eternals, the Inhumans, etc. All of those things are retcons upon retcons, anyway. In the original retelling of the destruction of Atlantis, in Namor's own book, the sinking had nothing to do with the Celestials, because they weren't even created. Atlantis sank because of a war with Lemuria which involved science and magic.
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  4. #154
    Incredible Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Well, to Doombot, I am not saying that any of those; Inhumans, Eternals, et al, are determinants of Atlantean culture, tech, evolution, but that given the vast, vast, VAST amount of time
    there clearly was intercourse and intra species contact. No, I'm not saying that some great ancestor of the Inhumans had anything to do with "Atlantis".
    It was others on this list who have teased the idea of Neptune being somehow an ancestor, so I just ran with that.
    I'm not asking for Inhumans of varying sorts to be integrated into current Namor stories either. But those ones with Triton in the '60s were rather cool and I wouldn't mind them teaming up again.
    But I do think that someone using magic or tech to transform any amount of air breathers to water breathers a little hard to take too. Wouldn't they have been easier able to escape the island/continent with those resources? Again the hand of Eternals or Celestials seems to be involved possibly.
    So... there has to be another story here. I can't believe that somehow they just transformed at once, without big mojo happening.
    I just don't find it reasonable to assume that these varying groups of underwater/abied peoples did not meet and exchange over thousands of years.
    But clearly Marvel has indicated that Atlantis to some degree is derived from the previous Eternals/Celestials stuff. Heck, even Agatha Harkness has been indicated to be an ancient Atlantean - now that is a concept I am not supportive of at all.
    I wasn't bringing up any of those points because I believed you were making that argument, your posts just opened up a larger conversation that I ran with. The only direct idea of yours I was responding to was the Inhumans, as I wouldn't be into any Inhuman/Atlantean mythos crossover, everything else was just general conversation.

    Given the highly secretive nature of both the Inhumans and the Eternals, you could make the argument there was very little interaction between them and the Atlanteans. I'm not saying that, but the argument could be made. As for myself, The Eternals are definitely somehow involved in Atlantean history.

    The modern Atlanteans are said to have some direct lineage to Neptune himself, especially the ruling class/royals. Anyone with even passing knowledge of Classical Mythology would see this being not entirely that difficult to believe. Neptune easily could have seduced or fallen for any number of Atlanteans in the pre-cataclysm years, and it's also been shown that Neptune lived among the early aquatic Atlanteans, so there's even more of a connection in the early post-cataclysm years. Neptune may have helped or saved his devout followers directly from the Celestial destruction.

  5. #155
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I really wish KiB Namor #3 was coming out today. I need a bright ray of sunlight.
    Hope your day is better today Rev, and the new Namor comic is out which is once again a great addition to the Sub-Mariner mythos. I loved it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I understand what Marvel says, but I've only seen vague panels that show this happening. I just don't see it, in the MU I know. These panels seem 3rd person too, so not really a retelling. I realize its probably more me.

    I just think we're dealing with such vast eras of time that given even Marvel reality/evolution, it is more likely the creation of "a new species" was not a snap of the fingers.

    Do you think Namor is a descendant of Neptune and how do you see that happening? Just curious, I am not trying to start an argument.
    Namor is most definitely a descendant of Neptune, it's been stated several times iirc. In The Sub-Mariner (1968) #68 Namor goes to Neptune's shrine for guidance and says that Father Neptune guided the royalty of Atlantis, and only he and Nita remained of that royal bloodline. In the First Mutant series we know that royal blood holds mystical propeties, this is most likely due to Namor once again being connected to Neptune. In the 90s series issue 37, Namor is revived by Neptune himself, who calls Namor his "son" twice, once a son of Atlantis and second he simply says "my son". Neptune is also often called Father Neptune, so that bears that Neptune and possibly his wife Cleito were the beginning of the Atlantean race. In Man Thing (1997) #8, Cleito calls Namor a child of the sea, she also calls him her "most beloved son" and Namor called her Holy Mother.

    Cleito also speaks of Namor's Linage which if he wasn't descended from the God/Goddess of the Atlantean people then would it matter so much? I think not. In Man Thing #7 there is a mention that Atlantis was once not one kingdom but ten, so there is possibly ten kings/queens who ruled those lands who might have been descended from Cleito/Neptune, however the cataclysm occurred and now we know only one royal line survived. How they survived is another matter. As I've stated before Marvel's Atlantean history is a mess, there were the older backstory accounts of Namor's ancestors who simply were merpeople who evolved, and there is the other explanation that magic created them into water breathers in one spontaneous burst was referenced in History of the Marvel Universe and in the Hercules Arc. I tend to ignore that because it rings far too close to how DC's Atlanteans were made and I want Namor to be his own thing.

    I personally think that perhaps Atlanteans were all hybrids once, able to live on land and in the sea, however the Cataclysm wiped out all the other royal lines and only Namor's line and the smallest fraction of the old city/people survived in the ocean, they evolved over time to be best suited to life in the sea. Atlantis went from a sprawling advanced empire on land with it's capital being the Golden City of Atlantis, to a handful of survivors in the sea, perhaps whatever caused the cataclysm made living on land unviable? Perhaps this is why the ocean people were able to survive while humans on land were set back thousands of years.

    Of course these are all just my theories from my readings and I know I lean on the explanation of the past from Man Thing a bit too much but it is honestly the only one I find interesting and has close ties to Atlantis without any intervention from outside forces like the Kree, or Inhumans. I agree with the others that Atlantis should be it's own thing and not tied up with the Inhumans at all.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  6. #156
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    I like the idea of Neptune and Cleito creating the Atlantean race.

    I also like to think that maybe a few of the other kingdoms did possibly survive. One could have dug deep into the ocean's mantle and way down, creating their own hiding/protected area. Another could have survived by dwelling in deep caves/caves just off the oceans. With the world's oceans being so vast, perhaps the Atlanteans never ventured far from their area and another one or two kingdoms still reside in the ocean while they too, remain in their local area. Just some new ideas......
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


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  7. #157
    Incredible Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Basically we're all grasping at straws and each have our own personal theories and opinions about this history, because Marvel is basically uninterested in the topic. The odd creator that is interested comes along and adds a crumb every decade or so. Pretty sad.

  8. #158
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I like the idea of Neptune and Cleito creating the Atlantean race.

    I also like to think that maybe a few of the other kingdoms did possibly survive. One could have dug deep into the ocean's mantle and way down, creating their own hiding/protected area. Another could have survived by dwelling in deep caves/caves just off the oceans. With the world's oceans being so vast, perhaps the Atlanteans never ventured far from their area and another one or two kingdoms still reside in the ocean while they too, remain in their local area. Just some new ideas......
    Has the ring of truth to me, at least as a possible, legendary source. The truth would be stranger?
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  9. #159
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    I wasn't bringing up any of those points because I believed you were making that argument, your posts just opened up a larger conversation that I ran with. The only direct idea of yours I was responding to was the Inhumans, as I wouldn't be into any Inhuman/Atlantean mythos crossover, everything else was just general conversation.

    Given the highly secretive nature of both the Inhumans and the Eternals, you could make the argument there was very little interaction between them and the Atlanteans. I'm not saying that, but the argument could be made. As for myself, The Eternals are definitely somehow involved in Atlantean history.

    The modern Atlanteans are said to have some direct lineage to Neptune himself, especially the ruling class/royals. Anyone with even passing knowledge of Classical Mythology would see this being not entirely that difficult to believe. Neptune easily could have seduced or fallen for any number of Atlanteans in the pre-cataclysm years, and it's also been shown that Neptune lived among the early aquatic Atlanteans, so there's even more of a connection in the early post-cataclysm years. Neptune may have helped or saved his devout followers directly from the Celestial destruction.
    I often don't say (or ever?) exactly what I mean. Must be the aging mind and too much blurring between other stories or half remembered ones.
    So I apologize if it seems I'm confrontational, or weird.

    I think my ideas about other underwater types and Atlantean interchanges is random. Like maybe it happened but not some colonial adventure. Like 'on average' every 50 or so years 'a non Atlantean [Inhuman, Eternal, Deviant, etc] comes across or is in a situation where they meet and have communication, interchange, intercourse, etc, with Atlanteans. That is all.

    It would be like hearing or knowing that your whole life you were of some British/German related stock, but you get the DNA and there is this less than 1 % Asian genes there. How did that happen?
    Which reminds me that there is/was some research about that, indicating a wide spread DNA that belonged to Gengas Khan (sic), globally.

    So I just can't believe it never happened and as a long time reader, I've read various books, still discovering a few I've not read, about this. I just know it happened, and it doesn't hurt a single thing to believe that, or not.
    I like my Namor and most of Marvel to have this sort of continuity. Everything is connected.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  10. #160
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Has the ring of truth to me, at least as a possible, legendary source. The truth would be stranger?
    Thanks!

    That is why great threads like this one are so important: so we can discuss, share information and even disagree (all amicably of course, lol). We all have character knowledge and the important thing is the information we share.
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  11. #161
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I like the idea of Neptune and Cleito creating the Atlantean race.

    I also like to think that maybe a few of the other kingdoms did possibly survive. One could have dug deep into the ocean's mantle and way down, creating their own hiding/protected area. Another could have survived by dwelling in deep caves/caves just off the oceans. With the world's oceans being so vast, perhaps the Atlanteans never ventured far from their area and another one or two kingdoms still reside in the ocean while they too, remain in their local area. Just some new ideas......
    Well thanks to KiB: Namor we know now the Chasm people are another tribe/clan of Atlanteans that operate outside of the Imperials. I only saw Attuma and his people referenced as the People of the Trench before in a FF comic. But the think that drives me crazy is monolithic fantasy worlds where everything is all one flavor. I love how there are differences in races under the sea, the Lemurians, Atlanteans etc. It makes sense that their world which spans more space on earth than any continent would be full of different types of peoples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    Basically we're all grasping at straws and each have our own personal theories and opinions about this history, because Marvel is basically uninterested in the topic. The odd creator that is interested comes along and adds a crumb every decade or so. Pretty sad.
    Which is exactly why Namor needs his own Atlantean focused series or a miniseries explaining the past, like DC's Atlantean Chronicles. Honestly I'm not sure if we will ever get anything Namor focused without Namor being in a movie or something, it's just the way of things now. Marvel puts all their efforts into properties they can profit off of in films, and even though I know there are creators out there who have expressed interest in a Namor series, it's editorial who has no faith in Namor leading his own book outside of minis again. ):
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  12. #162
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Well thanks to KiB: Namor we know now the Chasm people are another tribe/clan of Atlanteans that operate outside of the Imperials. I only saw Attuma and his people referenced as the People of the Trench before in a FF comic. But the think that drives me crazy is monolithic fantasy worlds where everything is all one flavor. I love how there are differences in races under the sea, the Lemurians, Atlanteans etc. It makes sense that their world which spans more space on earth than any continent would be full of different types of peoples.
    Ooh, that is interesting! I was just musing on what could be--I had no idea of all this!

    I agree--the underwater realms and denizens should be diverse!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


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  13. #163
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Has everyone had a chance to read KiB: Namor #3 yet? I wanted to know your thoughts of the latest comic and also what you all think of the series so far?

    I personally loved it, I feel the creative team is knocking it out of the park. The artwork is stunning and the there is this one scene, a shift from younger Namor to older Namor that I really love. It really shows how present Namor is so worn down from all the years, a stark contrast to his younger self.




    Also not going to lie when spoilers:
    Ambrose died
    end of spoilers I wished he had stayed even though I know he doesn't show up in adult Dorma's life. I just really enjoyed seeing everything about Dorma. I love her so much.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  14. #164
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Also in other news, if you are following along with Prince Ove and his mother Amora in Captain Marvel then we now know that Namor was spoilers:
    killed by his own son, Ove.
    end of spoilers
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  15. #165
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Has everyone had a chance to read KiB: Namor #3 yet? I wanted to know your thoughts of the latest comic and also what you all think of the series so far?

    I personally loved it, I feel the creative team is knocking it out of the park. The artwork is stunning and the there is this one scene, a shift from younger Namor to older Namor that I really love. It really shows how present Namor is so worn down from all the years, a stark contrast to his younger self.




    Also not going to lie when spoilers:
    Ambrose died
    end of spoilers I wished he had stayed even though I know he doesn't show up in adult Dorma's life. I just really enjoyed seeing everything about Dorma. I love her so much.
    I did! Also loved it! Also I feel the same about your spoiler tag. Noooooooooo!



    I'm going to copy this to the review thread here:

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...S!!!&p=5350416
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