IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2021

[Doombot]

Still need to read all of Earth X. So many comics, so little time.

I still love Earth X, it's like a love letter to the history of the Marvel Universe. Machine Man's conversations with the blind Uatu on the moon and the revelation(s) at the end with Galactus and the Celestials are still some of my favourite Marvel moments, at least in modern comics. I was a teenager, so I still have nostalgia for that era. And, although Namor isn't in it a ton, he always has a powerful presence when he is.

[Reviresco]

I still love Earth X, it's like a love letter to the history of the Marvel Universe. Machine Man's conversations with the blind Uatu on the moon and the revelation(s) at the end with Galactus and the Celestials are still some of my favourite Marvel moments, at least in modern comics. I was a teenager, so I still have nostalgia for that era. And, although Namor isn't in it a ton, he always has a powerful presence when he is.

This is true of most of his appearances now.

But I am very interested in reading Earth X and the following books. They have always seem to be jam packed with ideas.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Honestly, I couldn't agree with this more.

For the most part I'm pretty much over the MCU, and I have very little faith they'd do him justice anyway, I'd much rather an actual legit run on a new comic series with a strong creative team. (which is a complete pipe dream at this point)
Two of my other favourite Marvel characters, Thor and Dr. Strange, weren't exactly home runs in the MCU in my opinion. People just seem to love Chris Hemsworth as Thor more than liking Thor himself, and Dr Strange is always just sort of there. Both characters are just shadows of their comic book counterparts. I doubt Namor would been even that lucky. I'm positive for Disney to commit to tackling Namor for the MCU they would insist on changing him drastically and it wouldn't be the Namor I'd want anyway.

While I strongly agree with you both, about Black Panther as Namor's debut and the MCU, I feel that without it then we really will continue to be regulated to whenever someone has the whim to use Namor in a comic. There is no push from editors to popularize Namor, and even though this has been talked about before but marvel comics lately really don't care about giving any character a new run unless they are going to be in the MCU, Namor's popularity is just not there for those not mostly in comic circles, if he gets in the mcu he will most likely get a book. The director of BP worked a lot of characters in but I felt the movie was very true to the characters and fixed some issues. I'm on the fence about the whole thing, it's like a monkey's paw, yeah we might get Namor in a movie and might get a new run out of it but how will it end up? I'm already sick of people thinking Namor is only there to be BP villain but at this point I feel like I am always talking in the wind and it doesn't matter because no one reads the old comics, no one knows Namor's character pre AVX. The only thing I can hope for is a good enough showing that will end up helping Namor's character.

[Oberon]

I don't want Namor to only be a villain, but his entry into either the Golden Age or the Silver Age involves him starting out that way.

So the question is should he start off entering through the FF and the dreaded Sue/Namor stuff

Or as the ancient enemies of the Wakandans?

I think Namor's story would be better with the former.

It is important that he be quickly redeemed and become a force for good.

That is the question for Namor: will he always be a plot point or can he move beyond that.

[Doombot]

I simply don't get the idea of having Wakanda and Atlantis being enemies, ancient or otherwise. Wakanda is a tiny land-locked nation, basically a city state. Why would it have interactions with Atlantis at all? Not only that, Wakanda has been extremely isolationist until very recently. It's like tiny Rawanda or Burundi, land-locked in central Africa, having an ancient rivalry with New Zealand. It's beyond stupid.

[Reviresco]

I simply don't get the idea of having Wakanda and Atlantis being enemies, ancient or otherwise. Wakanda is a tiny land-locked nation, basically a city state. Why would it have interactions with Atlantis at all? Not only that, Wakanda has been extremely isolationist until very recently. It's like tiny Rawanda or Burundi, land-locked in central Africa, having an ancient rivalry with New Zealand. It's beyond stupid.

Of course, it is stupid. But it establishes 'cred' if the you trash the older, more established fictional kingdom, even if it makes no sense. If you are going to claim to be a world power, you actually have to deal with world.

I've said it numerous times. Wakanda is NOT part of the Atlantean mythos -- never has been, and never needed to be. There are zero guest appearances of Black Panther in Namor's own books.

[Phoenixx9]

Of course, it is stupid. But it establishes 'cred' if the you trash the older, more established fictional kingdom, even if it makes no sense. If you are going to claim to be a world power, you actually have to deal with world.

I've said it numerous times. Wakanda is NOT part of the Atlantean mythos -- never has been, and never needed to be. There are zero guest appearances of Black Panther in Namor's own books.

True. I wonder why they ever came up with that idea or even why (some) fans like it?

[ImperiusWrecked]

I was reading through Namor and Black Panther appearances here, and you can see pretty much all there interactions, I still need to do the Hickman era and beyond when I have time. I just wish Marvel would stop trying to make it seem like Namor is obsessed with hating T'Challa, he isn't.

[K7P5V]

^^^Damn! Seriously, that's an excellent list!
I guess this doesn't count since there weren't any sort of "interactions" between the two, but I kinda liked their team-up against the Lava-Men (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Avengers_Vol_1_307):

[ImperiusWrecked]

That's a nice one, but yeah I tried to keep it to where they at least interacted in some way.

[Reviresco]

I was reading through Namor and Black Panther appearances here, and you can see pretty much all there interactions, I still need to do the Hickman era and beyond when I have time. I just wish Marvel would stop trying to make it seem like Namor is obsessed with hating T'Challa, he isn't.

Good to have a list. And, as I've said repeatedly, NONE of those occur in Namor's book, and most of them occur in Black Panther's book. So, no. It's NOT Namor, or his writers, that are obsessed with his non-existent relationship with T'challa.


Daredevil Annual #4 occurs before the Defenders issue, I believe. I'd have to go back and see how much interaction they actually had. I just remember BP being his usual judgemental self about Namor.


I find your interpretation of the Hudlin's Black Panther interesting, especially as that appears to be where this idea of Black Panther and Namor 'respecting' each other comes from. I've always found those issues cringeworthy, deterimental and OOC for Namor.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I feel like Namor respects T'Challa because he is a monarch, not on any personal level but more of a "king recognizes king" thing, but you are right about all these occurring outside of Namor comics. I wanted to have a reference before BP2 came out and to prove that there hasn't been some huge decades long rivalry between them.

[Reviresco]

I feel like Namor respects T'Challa because he is a monarch, not on any personal level but more of a "king recognizes king" thing, but you are right about all these occurring outside of Namor comics. I wanted to have a reference before BP2 came out and to prove that there hasn't been some huge decades long rivalry between them.

I didn't get much feeling of respect from the pre-Hudlin books. I mean, how many times did Namor call T'challa a fool or belittle his decisions? In Sturm and Drang, there was almost WWIII, because of what the other monarchs considered T'challa's ... non-practical decisions not to mention hypocrisy. And how Namor got dragged into Deviant Lemuria business ... I don't know. Anyway, there have been too many retcons, so I'm not sure how long he's been king now, but remember, T'challa is the youngest person in that room. IIRC, he had the least leadership experience also. And the solution to that conflict rested completely on Namor cleaning up T'challa's mess by being the bigger man and the monarch who cared more for his people then his personal reputation.

TBH, there just aren't that many (male) surface dwellers that Namor respects. As much as I LOVE their team-ups, depending who writes them, I don't think Namor respects Doom all that much at times. And people that write Namor and Magneto, forgot that there was ZERO resolution / absolution to the monumental crap that Magneto pulled by threatening both Lady Dorma and Susan Richards, as well as dragging Atlantis into yet another conflict with the surface world back in FF 102-104. As well as Namor's fabulous reaction to Magneto here:





Those few pre-Hudlin appearances do show there isn't a huge, longstanding rivalry between Namor and T'challa, because they just do NOT interact. The what, two? interactions were either random or manufactured via a third party, like the Deviant Lemurians, or criminal Atlanteans and Wakandans. They show Namor is NOT interested in a conflict. And they also show they don't much care for each other.

The Hudlin interactions don't count, IMO, because Hudlin wrote just about every hero LOVING T'challa and kowtowing to him. That's just not Namor.

[Phoenixx9]

I didn't get much feeling of respect from the pre-Hudlin books. I mean, how many times did Namor call T'challa a fool or belittle his decisions? In Sturm and Drang, there was almost WWIII, because of what the other monarchs considered T'challa's ... non-practical decisions not to mention hypocrisy. And how Namor got dragged into Deviant Lemuria business ... I don't know. Anyway, there have been too many retcons, so I'm not sure how long he's been king now, but remember, T'challa is the youngest person in that room. IIRC, he had the least leadership experience also. And the solution to that conflict rested completely on Namor cleaning up T'challa's mess by being the bigger man and the monarch who cared more for his people then his personal reputation.

TBH, there just aren't that many (male) surface dwellers that Namor respects. As much as I LOVE their team-ups, depending who writes them, I don't think Namor respects Doom all that much at times. And people that write Namor and Magneto, forgot that there was ZERO resolution / absolution to the monumental crap that Magneto pulled by threatening both Lady Dorma and Susan Richards, as well as dragging Atlantis into yet another conflict with the surface world back in FF 102-104. As well as Namor's fabulous reaction to Magneto here:





Those few pre-Hudlin appearances do show there isn't a huge, longstanding rivalry between Namor and T'challa, because they just do NOT interact. The what, two? interactions were either random or manufactured via a third party, like the Deviant Lemurians, or criminal Atlanteans and Wakandans. They show Namor is NOT interested in a conflict. And they also show they don't much care for each other.

The Hudlin interactions don't count, IMO, because Hudlin wrote just about every hero LOVING T'challa and kowtowing to him. That's just not Namor.

hehehe, this is the Princeling Namor we all know and love, even down to his "s" belt, lol! I can picture a movie where Namor speaks like that. I want lots of "Silence!"

[Reviresco]

I don't want Namor to only be a villain, but his entry into either the Golden Age or the Silver Age involves him starting out that way.

So the question is should he start off entering through the FF and the dreaded Sue/Namor stuff

Or as the ancient enemies of the Wakandans?

I think Namor's story would be better with the former.

It is important that he be quickly redeemed and become a force for good.

That is the question for Namor: will he always be a plot point or can he move beyond that.

Of course, Namor can move beyond being a plot point. He's the OG of the Marvel Universe, even if current Marvel editorial has forgotten that.


I would prefer Namor to first appear with the FF, in part because I like the classic stories for Namor. However, there's so much of Namor's history has been erased by the MCU. Also, unlike with BP, Namor was never treated as an outright villain in the FF. He was an adversary, and an Atlantean hero responding to threats from the surface world. He was, as you say, quickly 'redeemed.' That's not going to happen in a BP movie.

hehehe, this is the Princeling Namor we all know and love, even down to his "s" belt, lol! I can picture a movie where Namor speaks like that. I want lots of "Silence!"

Yes! That would be so awesome.