IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2021

[Reviresco]

I read this, written by Alex Paknadel, this is the only panel with Namor and I just don't understand why he is with Black Panther and Echo when Aaron (cue angry ranting about how I hate Aaron's writing) established Namor is fighting against them in his series, however with the very large hint by Aaron it def seems like Namor is sticking around the Avengers for SOME reason though I am baffled as to why. However from the very small panel sample I gathered that Black Panther and Echo are there meeting with Namor about Umar's people, so either BP & Echo are aiding Namor or something else is going on.

Apparently, Aaron just hasn't finished abusing the character. He's probably going to go through his roster and have each of them trash the character to make them look good.

Frankly, it looks like neither this writer or artist have been actually reading Aaron's book. LOL!

[Reviresco]

Yes! I was thinking of that time too! Namor really acted well back then, fighting with the other 3 and Thundra! He even used his Horn of Prometheus and some sea monsters.

He had EVERYONE fooled, including Sue!

There was definitely some major fighting going in that issue too, between Thundra AND the Thing.

[Reviresco]

To settle this Vodani nonsense once and for all as it is also something I reject. I am using the latest info from the post Rev had shared earlier in the thread, I typed it out so I could highlight a few things:

Fabled Atlantis represented the pinnacle of human achievement in ancient times. In an era when much of the globe was under the heel of monstrous Deviants, the continent functioned as a living library that preserved much of humanity’s cultural and scientific heritage. Although it was sent crashing to the ocean floor, Atlantis survived the seismic event precipitated by the Great Cataclysm of 18,000 BCE.

Miraculously, it was not only the continent’s robust architecture that endured but also some of its inhabitants. A fraction of Atlanteans survived the upheaval, their bodies adapting so that they could live in an aquatic environment. What ultimately precipitated this change is unknown*. Some believe it to be the result of arcane sorcery, while others speculate that advanced science was responsible for the mutation. What is certain is that the Atlanteans came into contact with natural water-breathers soon after finding themselves adrift in the Atlantic Ocean.**

The Vodani was a band of aquatic extraterrestrials who had traveled some years earlier to Earth’s seas through a portal from the water world of Vodan. The two people interacted extensively and from this intermingling, a new race was born - Homo Mermanus***. This emergent species was instinctively nomadic, spreading out across the vast seabed, forming countless small tribes and establishing numerous underwater principalities. Centuries after this first migration, a band of nomadic barbarians returned to the submerged ruins of Atlantis****. They established a permanent settlement on the site and restored many of the damaged buildings. They embraced the philosophy and science-based culture of their forebears. They referred to each other as Atlanteans and saw themselves as inheritors of a historically important legacy.


*The original on earth water breathers were from the lost city of Atlantis. It's very clearly stated their bodies evolved in some way, magical or scientific, to become water breathers.
** After they were in the water (it is not stated for how long they were alone in the seas, only that the Vodani showed up AFTER they had become water breathers.) While in The Best Defense: Namor, the Vodani consider themselves to be the original Earth Water breathers that means nothing imo because they might have thought they were alone for years before encountering the first band of nomadic Atlanteans. Or they are simply arrogant and liars since we already know that the King of Vodan wanted to trick/use Namor for his benefit. Either way their story has holes, and so we shouldn't rush to consider they were telling the whole truth.
*** Again it does not state how many years the Atlanteans were water breathers only that the Vodani spent some years in the oceans, which are very big, and came into contact with the Atlanteans, the bloodlines/water races intermingled and some were born part vodani/atlantean. At this point I consider Vodan and it's people like that of Tamara Rahn, from the water plant Laab, their water breathing race called Banari. The Sub-Mariner (1968) #58 - first appearance.
**** Again this would line up with what Rev says for the nomadic homo mermanus backstories in the comics.

I really don't understand why we should change all of the present Atlantean History that states several times they are descended from the original Atlantis, and evolved to become water breathers because as far as I am concerned the Vodan are just another in a long line of attempted explanations by writers who can't even agree on what the history should be. A small example below:

Other backstories from Atlantis as collected by me so far, still working on this list as I'm trying to find stories of Altantis centered recollections:
1. Fantastic Four (1961) Annual 1 - Recap of who Namor is as told by Reed Richards
2. The Sub-Mariner (1968) #38 - Namor thinks back on his ancestors
3. Man Thing (1997) #7-8 - Namor travels through time to meet with the Goddess Celtio and sees Atlantis in it's heyday.
4. The Sub-Mariner (1968) #62-66 Kamuu the Atlantean Nobleman and his wife, Zartra, a Lemurian born woman - Tales of Atlantis
5. Spectacular Spider-Man (1976) Annual 9 - Neptune & Ossem & the Serpent Crown
6. Incredible Hercules (2008) #123 Atlantean/Amazon war - I generally discount this and don't really think it's canon

Although I know not everyone reads Golden Age, especially the current writers, and most people dismiss the golden age stories I do feel it is important that Namor claims to be descended from Atlantis in Sub-Mariner Comics (1949) #31 now this was BEFORE Aquaman's change into being an Atlantean Prince. While I think his story about the magnets to Betty was a tall fish tale meant to tease her with, I do think/accept Namor's claim of being Atlantean royalty before Aquaman. I know Everett didn't see the Atlanteans as Atlanteans at first calling them Sub-Mariners but it still stands that other contributors laid Namor's claim to Atlantean royalty before DC.




EDIT: ANOTHER VERY IMPORTANT THING TO CONSIDER! If the Vodani and Atlanteans intermingled while there was a sect of Atlanteans who became the Atlanteans we know today and how only certain Atlanteans are of noble blood/connected to Neptune, then it is not beyond our realm of imagination to assume that Namor and his family were of the original descendants of Atlantis aka "pure blooded atlanteans" while others who intermingled with the Vodani are not, hence why Namor's family/other nobles have more claim to the Throne of Atlantis. This is just me speculating of course. In the end I would just treat the Vodani as Tamara Rahn, the Lemurians, Trition of the Inhumans, etc, they are just another "alien" race of water breathers who have connections to Earth.

Interesting. I don't remember seeing that panel before. I'd always heard it was Stan Lee who made the Sub-Mariners Atlanteans and AFTER Aquaman was made an Atlantean, but now we see differently.

One of my problems with intermingling with aliens is ... that's not an natural occurrence. I mean, clearly, each race would have different DNA and they can't breed naturally.

Great list! I've been wanting to do something similar so, thank you for getting to it first. : ) Are you going to include Saga of the Sub-Mariner? It's a retelling, but there might be a few nuggets of info there also. Maybe there's info in the Saga of the Marvel Universe too? There's some bits of history in the Harras / Jae Lee run, of course, as well as Hickman's Old Kings of Atlantis. And then SOMEWHERE, some ... unmentionable came up with the theory that the water breathing Atlanteans started out as genetically altered slaves to the Lemurian Deviants??? Needless to say, I dismiss that nonsense also. ; p

Your EDIT is one way to assimilate the Vodani into the mess of Atlantean 'history,' but for me, it's just easier to dismiss the Vodani claims entirely for the reasons you stated. That was the Vodani king's version of what happened, and not necessarily true. Namor's original version sounds closer to the truth. The Vodani are an offshoot / banished branch of the Atlanteans. Plus, it isn't like that Marvel Map book is exactly canon.

[Phoenixx9]

I find all of this very fascinating!

[Oberon]

I'm someone who believes that Atlantean origins and DNA include the possibility of Inhumans/Deviants in the mix.

Inhumans were created to mimic ALIEN races' DNA and characteristics, so of course this could include the Vodani and/or similar species.

All this talk of undersea types in nomadic tribes mingling etc. I am certainly not against the Vodani and their possible such intermingling into the mix of / what became/ Atlantis.

But likewise, Inhumans and even others. We know Inhumans had sub groups with uniform genetics - the Winged Ones and the Centaurs, so of course Triton or similar Inhumans of the type have existed before and through time. They even predate Atlantis, if you think about it, so I guess that throws to the idea that there is more than just the names Atlantis and Attilan, that are similar.

[Reviresco]

I find all of this very fascinating!

The Namor fans' endless efforts to untangle 81 years of their favorite character's history. ;p

I'm someone who believes that Atlantean origins and DNA include the possibility of Inhumans/Deviants in the mix.

Inhumans were created to mimic ALIEN races' DNA and characteristics, so of course this could include the Vodani and/or similar species.

All this talk of undersea types in nomadic tribes mingling etc. I am certainly not against the Vodani and their possible such intermingling into the mix of / what became/ Atlantis.

But likewise, Inhumans and even others. We know Inhumans had sub groups with uniform genetics - the Winged Ones and the Centaurs, so of course Triton or similar Inhumans of the type have existed before and through time. They even predate Atlantis, if you think about it, so I guess that throws to the idea that there is more than just the names Atlantis and Attilan, that are similar.

Were the Inhumans created to mimic alien DNA / characteristics? Or were they created by mixing alien DNA with Celestial influenced human DNA? Either way, it supports what I was saying, i.e. that aliens and humans don't naturally have offspring.


Of course, like the Atlanteans, there's been quite a bit of retconning and addition / subtraction on the Inhumans' origin also. Including, making their original home ON pre-Cataclysmic Atlantis.

[Reviresco]

Weeeel, this is interesting. OR, just another non-story related variant. Regardless, it is pretty.



One of the Timeless variants by the Stormbreakers.

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...variant-covers


As @616Toro points out, Namor is wearing a Rolex Submarine watch, for his 'time' theme.

https://twitter.com/616toro/status/1...481393668?s=20

[Thor-El]

If you have an extra $150 bucks to spend in November ...







https://www.idwpublishing.com/produc...tists-edition/


These IDW Artists Editions are awesome! It's like having a bound book of original art -- pages are at least 11 x 17 inches. I lucked up on a sale and have a couple of these, but this will be the first one I know of that will have Namor art! I suspect the complete Sub-Mariner story will be issue #3, IIRC. I know there was some lucky devil that had all the pages for an entire issue of Buscema's Subby, and I think he sold them together to one buyer. I haven't seen any previews, yet.

OMG! This looks so great! If only I had the money! What a book for John Buscema fans!!!

Those in the Marvel offices today are sure different from those who were in 40, 50, 60 years ago. Even if they did not love each character, there was a respect and continuity of character and personality that was much more evident than anything seen today. They did things for the characters, but for the fans as well. They had respect for the characters but also for the fans. When I pick up an old comic book, I can feel the love and respect coming off of it. Today's comics have a feel of greed and self-servingness to them. Not at all the same feel.

So true! I honestly feel most of these new stories are not valid or they are from an alternate universe version of the character. Aaron is a great example, he started powering up Namor to insane levels going against She-Hulk, Thor, Captain Marvel and brushing them aside like puppets to suddenly have him unable to handle Captain America and Wolverine!!!??? Also depicting Namor as a selfish ruler where the Atlanteans feel like they should uprise??! The sad thing is this is not the first writer that shows Namor that way, there was a recent story were Namora was involved that had the same theme were it shows Namor as a selfish evil ruler.

If there is one thing Bill Everett and Stan Lee always tried to convey was the nobility and self sacrifice of Namor towards his people, always willing to become a martyr if it meant the safety and the well being of his subjects.

[Thor-El]

Weeeel, this is interesting. OR, just another non-story related variant. Regardless, it is pretty.



One of the Timeless variants by the Stormbreakers.

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...variant-covers


As @616Toro points out, Namor is wearing a Rolex Submarine watch, for his 'time' theme.

https://twitter.com/616toro/status/1...481393668?s=20

That looks great! I hope we get to see Namor in this series.

[Reviresco]

Good to see you, Thor-El!

OMG! This looks so great! If only I had the money! What a book for John Buscema fans!!!

Me too! The release date has been pushed back to January 11, 2022, so a few more moths to save.

So true! I honestly feel most of these new stories are not valid or they are from an alternate universe version of the character. Aaron is a great example, he started powering up Namor to insane levels going against She-Hulk, Thor, Captain Marvel and brushing them aside like puppets to suddenly have him unable to handle Captain America and Wolverine!!!??? Also depicting Namor as a selfish ruler where the Atlanteans feel like they should uprise??! The sad thing is this is not the first writer that shows Namor that way, there was a recent story were Namora was involved that had the same theme were it shows Namor as a selfish evil ruler.

If there is one thing Bill Everett and Stan Lee always tried to convey was the nobility and self sacrifice of Namor towards his people, always willing to become a martyr if it meant the safety and the well being of his subjects.

So true! Writers tend to abuse guest heroes now. Sadly, so many comic fans don't realize just how heroic and white hat Namor used to be written as.

That looks great! I hope we get to see Namor in this series.

Well, it's a one shot, and probably overpriced, but I do LOVE this cover. If Namor is in it, it will give me hope for next years, as this is sort of a preview of next year or two's Marvel.

It certainly is better than Disney Plus' announcements today. I can't believe they are going back to Marvel Zombies, AGAIN, and we aren't getting anything Namor related. sigh.

I do like a good portion of the many announcements, but there are a few that just make me annoyed.

Also, I finally saw Eternals, and all those rumors about Namor and Atlantis are complete ... bull puckey, as they say. Just reinforces my feelings about all the BP rumors, thank goodness.

[Phoenixx9]

Happy Friday everyone!

The Holidays will soon be upon us!

Hey Thor-El! Glad to see you pop up on a Friday!

I am never a fan of one-shots. I never like the story, art, etc. Although the cover Namor does look good.

[Reviresco]

Happy Friday everyone!

The Holidays will soon be upon us!

Hey Thor-El! Glad to see you pop up on a Friday!

I am never a fan of one-shots. I never like the story, art, etc. Although the cover Namor does look good.

It's a rare one shot these days that can pull it off. Plus, they tend to be over priced. Back in the day, however, there were plenty of Marvel annuals that were great.

Oh no. The holidays.

[Reviresco]

Dear god. Make. It. Stop.

ASSAULT ON AVENGERS MOUNTAIN!

The Avengers’ impenetrable headquarters is under attack, by the most supremely powerful version of Dr. Doom in existence and a wildly murderous Young Thanos, still wet with his mother’s blood. The Black Panther fights to defend the mountain alongside his surprising new teammates, King Namor of Atlantis and Jane Foster, the mighty Valkyrie.


AVENGERS #53

Writer: JASON AARON
Artist/Cover: JAVIER GARRÓN
Release Date: Februray 2022

https://aiptcomics.com/2021/11/12/ex...k-avengers-53/

[Thor-El]

Also, I finally saw Eternals, and all those rumors about Namor and Atlantis are complete ... bull puckey, as they say. Just reinforces my feelings about all the BP rumors, thank goodness.

I don't know, everything seems to point at Tenoch Huerta having been cast as Namor. To me this is as bad as the myriad of oriental actors that were being wish listed before, they were only named because they were oriental and actors. I don't mind race bent of characters if it is done well, a good example to me is Aldis Hodge as Hawkman in the upcoming Black Adam or Jason Momoa as Aquaman. But Tenoch doesn't have the looks, build, height and presence for Namor. Not a race bent but another actor very different to the comic was Jeremy Renner as Hawkeye and look how well that casting turned out. Also by introducing the character in Black Panther Marvel is ignoring his entire WW2 history which is essential for the character. Well, lets hope you are right and these are just rumors.

Here's some interesting text I bumped into today while checking the first issue of FOOM from the Spring of 1973:

Dear god. Make. It. Stop.







https://aiptcomics.com/2021/11/12/ex...k-avengers-53/

Ugh! I don't think we will get Jason off the character of Namor for awhile. We might even get a Namor solo by him, he seems genuinely interested in the character. In wrecking the character? Only time will tell. This is a comic I might pick up though as it includes Jane Foster, Namor and probably Thor, some of my favorite characters.

[Reviresco]

I don't know, everything seems to point at Tenoch Huerta having been cast as Namor. To me this is as bad as the myriad of oriental actors that were being wish listed before, they were only named because they were oriental and actors. I don't mind race bent of characters if it is done well, a good example to me is Aldis Hodge as Hawkman in the upcoming Black Adam or Jason Momoa as Aquaman. But Tenoch doesn't have the looks, build, height and presence for Namor. Not a race bent but another actor very different to the comic was Jeremy Renner as Hawkeye and look how well that casting turned out. Also by introducing the character in Black Panther Marvel is ignoring his entire WW2 history which is essential for the character. Well, lets hope you are right and these are just rumors.

There's been no official announcement or reporting from a Hollywood trade that Huerta IS Namor. If they've cast him as Namor, they are trashing more than his WWII history, by seeking Spanish speaking Atlanteans in their casting calls. That's another reason why I don't think Huerta is Namor. Atlanteans' "native" language is Spanish???

I haven't seen Huerta in anything, but I agree, just on the pictures, he doesn't come across as Namor to me. But I don't think a lot of those Asian actors were fancast just because they were Asian. Like three of those actors actually expressed an interest in playing Namor: Henry Golding, Daniel Dae Kim, and Brian Tee. The latter two have the looks and presence to carry off Namor, I think. I'd love for the actor who plays Namor to be tall and built, but we've seen plenty of the MCU casting where that has been ignored, and it worked out fine. The most important thing for me is that Marvel chooses a great actor, with charisma and presence, who can carry off Namor's particular ... attitude and personality. They can always put the actor through Spartan Training. ;p

TBH, Jason Momoa never struck me as Aquaman. I mean, he works for the movie, but as we've discussed already, it's because they took elements of Namor that fit Momoa.

Here's some interesting text I bumped into today while checking the first issue of FOOM from the Spring of 1973:

Awww. That's kind of bitter sweet, given we know Everett didn't survive.

Ugh! I don't think we will get Jason off the character of Namor for awhile. We might even get a Namor solo by him, he seems genuinely interested in the character. In wrecking the character? : ( Only time will tell. This is a comic I might pick up though as it includes Jane Foster, Namor and probably Thor, some of my favorite characters.

Genuinely interested in abusing poor Namor! No, the characters Aaron loves on that cover are Black Panther and Jane Foster.