IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2021

[Thor-El]

There's been no official announcement or reporting from a Hollywood trade that Huerta IS Namor.

Oh, I don't expect it to be, why haven't we seen reports of Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield on the next Spider-man on a movie about the Multiverse? Marvel likes to keep these big surprises secret. Namor is a BIG CHARACTER for the MCU, I'm sure they are saving the announcement for the right time, closer to the Black Panther 2 release. Grace Randolph wouldn't say she saw pictures of Huerta as Namor, that would be too much for her to handle if it turned out to be lies.

If they've cast him as Namor, they are trashing more than his WWII history, by seeking Spanish speaking Atlanteans in their casting calls. That's another reason why I don't think Huerta is Namor. Atlanteans' "native" language is Spanish???

Why do you say they will be speaking Spanish? So an oriental actor casting would mean Atlanteans speak Mandarin then?

I haven't seen Huerta in anything, but I agree, just on the pictures, he doesn't come across as Namor to me.

I've seen a couple of clips of some of his films and I've seen him in interviews both English and Spanish. I'll admit he has an intensity in screen that could be used well for Namor, I don't know he may surprise. I always like to give the benefit of the doubt. Its on the physicality. I always envisioned Namor very close to Thor in height and build. Also very close to when the rumors of his casting as Namor he started posting about getting in shape in his Instagram which is kind of a big coincidence.

But I don't think a lot of those Asian actors were fancast just because they were Asian. Like three of those actors actually expressed an interest in playing Namor: Henry Golding, Daniel Dae Kim, and Brian Tee. The latter two have the looks and presence to carry off Namor, I think.

To me any article suggesting an actor is a fancast even if the actor himself expresses interest in the casting.

I'd love for the actor who plays Namor to be tall and built, but we've seen plenty of the MCU casting where that has been ignored, and it worked out fine. The most important thing for me is that Marvel chooses a great actor, with charisma and presence, who can carry off Namor's particular ... attitude and personality. They can always put the actor through Spartan Training. ;p

That is true. I had my doubts about Simu Liu as Shang Chi because my mental image was still Bruce Lee as I collected the Paul Gulacy Master of Kung Fu comics in my youth, very different facial features to Liu but after seeing the movie turns out I love him as Shang Chi.

TBH, Jason Momoa never struck me as Aquaman. I mean, he works for the movie, but as we've discussed already, it's because they took elements of Namor that fit Momoa.

Now I want to see Momoa's Aquaman fighting Huerta's Namor on a JLAvengers movie!

[Reviresco]

Oh, I don't expect it to be, why haven't we seen reports of Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield on the next Spider-man on a movie about the Multiverse? Marvel likes to keep these big surprises secret. Namor is a BIG CHARACTER for the MCU, I'm sure they are saving the announcement for the right time, closer to the Black Panther 2 release. Grace Randolph wouldn't say she saw pictures of Huerta as Namor, that would be too much for her to handle if it turned out to be lies.

Well, it's not like Grace Randolph has been entirely accurate in her scoops. IIRC, she said she saw a pic of Huerta in costume for BP and it looked very Mayan, and then she leapt to the conclusion that he was playing Namor. My question is, did he have pointy ears and eyebrows? Was he underwater? What did she actually SEE that said this was Namor?

Why do you say they will be speaking Spanish? So an oriental actor casting would mean Atlanteans speak Mandarin then?

Of course not. I rarely see Asian fancasts of Namor being Chinese. ;p Seriously, though, the casting call I saw expressly asked / preferred that the group speak Spanish or "Mayan".

I've seen a couple of clips of some of his films and I've seen him in interviews both English and Spanish. I'll admit he has an intensity in screen that could be used well for Namor, I don't know he may surprise. I always like to give the benefit of the doubt. Its on the physicality. I always envisioned Namor very close to Thor in height and build. Also very close to when the rumors of his casting as Namor he started posting about getting in shape in his Instagram which is kind of a big coincidence.

Anyone going into a superhero movie SHOULD be getting in shape. Especially if he's going to look like a Mayan warrior in a loin cloth. And yes, I agree with your vision of Namor and most superheroes. But that's not what we've been getting in the movies. Yes! I think Namor should definitely be intense. I'll have to watch something Huerta's in.

Now I want to see Momoa's Aquaman fighting Huerta's Namor on a JLAvengers movie!

LOL! I like that you dream big Thor-El!

[Thor-El]

Well, it's not like Grace Randolph has been entirely accurate in her scoops. IIRC, she said she saw a pic of Huerta in costume for BP and it looked very Mayan, and then she leapt to the conclusion that he was playing Namor. My question is, did he have pointy ears and eyebrows? Was he underwater? What did she actually SEE that said this was Namor?

Oh, she says a lot.




https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/st...31156648701954

[Reviresco]

Oh, she says a lot.




https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/st...31156648701954

Yep, like outright naming Namor as a Black Panther villain -- which again, shows why Namor shouldn't appear in a Black Panther movie. I did read her twitter posts and even listened to her video when it came out, and I'm still skeptical. I mean, I'm not sure why they would need to previz flying, since they've done it so often in their movies, but hopefully Marvel will actually start releasing some information and put an end to all this speculation. I'm still putting money on a Savage Land tribe. ; )

[Reviresco]

Here's a cool pitch from Powerhouse Animation studio for Marvel's 75th anniversary.

I wrote about 14 rough concepts. There was a 40Â’s Captain America d-day story in the style of Fleischer studios, a Submariner U-boat story,

In a fun example of great minds think alike we proposed doing a piece influenced by the style of Leyendecker- which I think I can see a tinge of a similar thought in the WHAT IF? series (9/10)

https://twitter.com/BradGraeber/stat...626485768?s=20

https://twitter.com/BradGraeber/stat...426441729?s=20

I think Namor should take the 1930s decade, and leave the 1940s to Cap. ; )


I am getting some Sub-Mariner the Depths vibes from this pitch, but I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE a Leyendecker art inspired Namor story. His style is so elegant and definitely of the 20s and 30s era -- though he did do some WWII posters, I think.

[Reviresco]

Here's the original tweet with the trailer pitch.

In 2012-2013, Powerhouse pitched a project called MARVEL ERA. The 75th anniversary of Marvel was approaching in 2014 and the idea was short stories for each decade of Marvel history- and to have each short inspired by the art/animation of that “era.” (1/10)

https://twitter.com/BradGraeber/stat...355679240?s=20


Well, I can't figure out how to post the video here, so click on the link. It is definitely worth it, even if it doesn't have Namor in it.

[Thor-El]

Here's a cool pitch from Powerhouse Animation studio for Marvel's 75th anniversary.





https://twitter.com/BradGraeber/stat...626485768?s=20

https://twitter.com/BradGraeber/stat...426441729?s=20

I think Namor should take the 1930s decade, and leave the 1940s to Cap. ; )


I am getting some Sub-Mariner the Depths vibes from this pitch, but I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE a Leyendecker art inspired Namor story. His style is so elegant and definitely of the 20s and 30s era -- though he did do some WWII posters, I think.

LOL, that is very white artwork. And I love it because it 100% fits the Namor I had always envisioned for decades of knowing the character. To me it makes sense, it is the main character from a very white creator from a very white era. A Namor MCKENZIE that started as a red head is a VERY WHITE character IMO. I'm sorry if I'm dragging the elephant in the room by the hairs but it has to be discussed. Namor has been wishlisted mixed by many because he one time in his first appearances said that he had a war against the white men. Specially on those times, white men equaled civilization for people in Europe and North America and I think that is what Bill Everett meant, that Namor was fighting the civilized world of the surface and not a declaration of the character as a POC fighting against the white race as it wants to be interpreted by some today.

People don't realize that these race swaps into POC don't work ever as good as when the character is undoubtedly created as a POC. Shang Chi is a good example, Black Panther is another and Miles Morales and Amadeus Cho are good more recent examples. Will I boycott a POC Namor? Hell no, but the part of me that wants to see the character that Bill Everett, John Buscema, Gene Colan and so many of the artists of my era drew will be still waiting for its live action interpretation. Like Thesa Thompson is beautiful and sexy and awesome as the Valkyrie in Thor Ragnarok but she is not the same tall blonde character with the white tresses I read about in the Defenders of my youth.

[Thor-El]

Here's the original tweet with the trailer pitch.




https://twitter.com/BradGraeber/stat...355679240?s=20


Well, I can't figure out how to post the video here, so click on the link. It is definitely worth it, even if it doesn't have Namor in it.

WOW! This is fantastic!

[Phoenixx9]

LOL, that is very white artwork. And I love it because it 100% fits the Namor I had always envisioned for decades of knowing the character. To me it makes sense, it is the main character from a very white creator from a very white era. A Namor MCKENZIE that started as a red head is a VERY WHITE character IMO. I'm sorry if I'm dragging the elephant in the room by the hairs but it has to be discussed. Namor has been wishlisted mixed by many because he one time in his first appearances said that he had a war against the white men. Specially on those times, white men equaled civilization for people in Europe and North America and I think that is what Bill Everett meant, that Namor was fighting the civilized world of the surface and not a declaration of the character as a POC fighting against the white race as it wants to be interpreted by some today.

People don't realize that these race swaps into POC don't work ever as good as when the character is undoubtedly created as a POC. Shang Chi is a good example, Black Panther is another and Miles Morales and Amadeus Cho are good more recent examples. Will I boycott a POC Namor? Hell no, but the part of me that wants to see the character that Bill Everett, John Buscema, Gene Colan and so many of the artists of my era drew will be still waiting for its live action interpretation. Like Thesa Thompson is beautiful and sexy and awesome as the Valkyrie in Thor Ragnarok but she is not the same tall blonde character with the white tresses I read about in the Defenders of my youth.

I know what you mean. For example, I loved the character we got from Tessa Thompson and she was definitely a Valkyrie of Asgard. But for me, she was not The Valkyrie of the Defenders! And we may yet see a Barbara Norriss/Brunhilde Valkyrie on screen.

For Namor I see it as you do with the statement. Most Atlanteans are blue so he meant it to mean he was fighting the surface Earthers, not the white race itself. For the movie it is different because the movie makers will have to choose a specific Namor look (as there is only one of him vs the Valkyrior). Namor's Father most presumably has a Northern European surname, and Namor could indeed have Red hair on screen as a youth which darkens with age (as his comic version did).

[Doombot]

The topic of Namor's ethnic makeup and identity is always an interesting one, and due to the nature of the character, it's integral to understanding Namor on a deeper level. That being said, the subject can easily devolve into unnecessarily heated arguments, which make people less willing to explore it.

Namor is a mixed race character. His father was a European, a "white" man. His mother, an Atlantean. What Atlantean means is, in and of itself, up for debate. On top of this, he was born different from both, a unique hybrid (which later was retconned into being a mutant) and wholly different from both of his parent's lineages. Namor is not supposed to just look like an Atlantean with European features, nor a European with Atlantean features, he was meant to look, for lack of a better term: weird. He doesn't look like anyone. Which was kind of the point. He does not fit in anywhere.

The Atlanteans themselves cause more confusion with this issue than not. Are they the strange froglike "sub-mariners" that, in some aspect, were to represent "native" or "aboriginal" peoples coming into contact with Western Civilization, or "white" people? In this sense, playing up the "Cowboys vs Indians" trope with the "sub-mariner" tribe being accosted, or even decimated, by an either aggressive or ignorantly destructive "white man". In these early Golden Age stories, it's certainly meant to evoke this familiar idea of the "Cowboys vs Indians" story, with Namor being the adopted outsider for the reader to follow into their world, yet somehow still represent them. Namor is essentially a white adopted or mixed child born into an "Indian" tribe meant to be a window into a foreign culture. His mother being the daughter of the tribal elder or "Chief", herself an "Indian Princess". Namor, seeing their mistreatment, can then rage against his "original" people, Western or "white men" and become a mirror of sorts, showing them their own faults and ignorance.

Where this becomes interesting, and messy, is when you then take those ideas and lay the myth of Atlantis and Atlanteans over top of it. The Atlantis story is essentially the direct opposite of idea of aboriginal peoples and their contact with Western Civilization. Atlantis is wrapped up in the very center and origins of Western Civilization itself. Atlantis in myth is an ancient civilization that is either Mediterranean in origin, or at least related enough that the ancient Greeks had knowledge of them. Atlantis in the Marvel Universe, is one of the most ancient and advanced societies in human history. Not only in pre-Cataclysm times, but after the "fall" the sea-faring Atlantis once again becomes one of the most spectacular and advanced civilizations on earth. The fish or froglike "Sub-Mariners" transform into the beautiful blue-skinned descendants of classical antiquity. They live in a wondrous undersea kingdom, oozing with ancient Roman influence and stereotypes. A powerful and advanced people with undersea equivalents of cars and planes, educated people and a powerful dynastic royalty.

Not only does this civilization contrast directly with the Golden Age "Sub-Mariners", it contrasts even with the Western Powers of the 20th century. It's never clear how the Atlanteans, being this marvel of civilization, could be threatened by clunky human technology of the early 20th century. Not only are they no longer representative of some oppressed and overwhelmed aboriginal people, it makes no sense why they didn't just rise from the sea to defend themselves with their impressive flying fighter ships and advanced technology to destroy any human aggression.

Marvel has never been able to come to terms with all these conflicting ideas, other than to outright ignore them.

So yes, Namor is a mixed race character. This gets us to the tiresome debate of his ethnicity and what people feel he is, isn't or should represent. While Namor superficially looks like the classic Western "white" hero, it's only skin deep. He is unquestionably half European, but that pesky other half, that's where is issue raised in my earlier comments come up. People may want Namor to represent or feel he is "coded" to be one thing or another, which is fine, he's a fictional character, but I'm usually more interested in what his background is in-universe. That's where the mess of the Atlanteans rears it's head. Marvel is unable or unwilling to put any creative thought into the Sub-Mariner mythos, so we may never know. As for the dreaded "asian vs white" debate, it's usually, at it's core, about how people want to see Namor played in media. Whatever you feel Namor might represent or stand-in for, in-universe there is nothing to suggest he has any asian ancestry whatsoever. Making arguments based on Namor's eye-shape is very strange to me, as if people all over the world, in every ethnicity, don't also have individuals with almond shaped eyes. Besides stereotyping his eye shape, there isn't a whole lot to go on in that aspect aside from some cringeworthy Golden Age panels. The Golden Age also has the Atlanteans as frog people, so you have to consider what we're dealing with here.

As I said earlier, in my opinion, Namor isn't supposed to look like anyone. At quick glance he may look European, but a longer look gets you a being with very strange and unique features that make him stand out from humanity and his own people. It's not just his skin. He is meant to look strange and be estranged. The ultimate outsider.

I'm convinced the actual design of Namor was influenced by earlier art of sprites, faeries and elves. Non-human supernatural beings, not of human ethnicities. There are many of these type of beings in early 20th and late 19th century illustrations that look surprisingly like Namor. But that's a whole other bag of cats.

Phew, I need a nap.

[Oberon]

That was astonishing and astute. I loved reading it.
I once read somewhere, that as Timely's attempt at a "Superman" type, Namor was indeed

A strange visitor from another world.
But he was also a strange visitor in His own world too.

[Reviresco]

So, of course, Aquaman (and his sidekick / legacy) is going to have a new ongoing next year.

When a suicide bomber in Middle America is revealed as an Atlantean sleeper agent seemingly gone rogue, the Aquamen—Arthur Curry and Jackson Hyde—are on the case. But it soon becomes clear that the tragedy was not just a single bad actor, but the beginnings of a much larger and more dangerous chain reaction…and the heart of an explosive Atlantean conspiracy! If Arthur's not careful, the secrets he's keeping—from Mera, Tula, Tempest, Atlantis, the surface, and even Jackson—could cause a rift from which the Aquamen might never recover.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dc-c...aquamen-comic/


Seriously??? So they are going to lift entirely the plot for Namor's Revolution 2007 mini-series? Can't wait for the "secret" reveal to be Aquaman's previously unknown kid. DC just LOVES Namor, don't they? I just wish Marvel loved Namor a tenth as much.

[Reviresco]

That was astonishing and astute. I loved reading it.
I once read somewhere, that as Timely's attempt at a "Superman" type, Namor was indeed

A strange visitor from another world.
But he was also a strange visitor in His own world too.

I agree. An incisive post, Doombot.

Yes, Namor, like many early Golden Age characters, was Timely's answer to Superman. And a good point about about being a stranger in BOTH worlds. I haven't really read enough of Superman, or even Jim Hammond, but my vague impression was that both of these characters were supposed to be outsiders, but as after the origin story, it isn't really touched on again. They pretty much act like and are treated as belonging fully to society. That was never the case for Namor -- which is part of his appeal, to me.

[Reviresco]

I know what you mean. For example, I loved the character we got from Tessa Thompson and she was definitely a Valkyrie of Asgard. But for me, she was not The Valkyrie of the Defenders! And we may yet see a Barbara Norriss/Brunhilde Valkyrie on screen.

For Namor I see it as you do with the statement. Most Atlanteans are blue so he meant it to mean he was fighting the surface Earthers, not the white race itself. For the movie it is different because the movie makers will have to choose a specific Namor look (as there is only one of him vs the Valkyrior). Namor's Father most presumably has a Northern European surname, and Namor could indeed have Red hair on screen as a youth which darkens with age (as his comic version did).

But you have to remember, when Everett wrote the first Namor stories, the Atlanteans weren't blue. Both Fen and Dorma have white skin. Many of the men, like Byrrah and Tha-Korr are green, with huge black eyes, and catfish whiskers -- they are definitely not white or human. Sean Howe tracks this in his blog post Atlantis Blue.

https://atomsmashers.blogspot.com/20...tis-blues.html


Right. I didn't think Tessa Thompson's Valkyrie was supposed to be the Defenders' Valkyrie. Of course, Val's history is so convoluted, I don't know if we will ever get her in the MCU.

[Reviresco]

WOW! This is fantastic!

I agree! I love that trailer / pitch. It looks like that would be an awesome series.

LOL, that is very white artwork. And I love it because it 100% fits the Namor I had always envisioned for decades of knowing the character. To me it makes sense, it is the main character from a very white creator from a very white era. A Namor MCKENZIE that started as a red head is a VERY WHITE character IMO. I'm sorry if I'm dragging the elephant in the room by the hairs but it has to be discussed. Namor has been wishlisted mixed by many because he one time in his first appearances said that he had a war against the white men. Specially on those times, white men equaled civilization for people in Europe and North America and I think that is what Bill Everett meant, that Namor was fighting the civilized world of the surface and not a declaration of the character as a POC fighting against the white race as it wants to be interpreted by some today.

Well, like you said, the art is from a very white era, so yes, Leyendecker's subjects are very white. A lot of his work is from magazine covers and advertising, like the Arrow shirts, and that audience was mostly white. And yes, Everett wasn't like many other comic creators of the time. He came from a well off, historied white family with higher social standing. That said, he was also something of the black sheep of his family, a rebel, and had a number of issues and experiences from his bouts with tuberculosis that clearly gave him an insight into being an outsider -- as well as an angry young man. And he also was very familiar with the Byronic hero and the Romantics, from his reading and education.

I think one of the cool things about Namor is that from the beginning he was so well developed as a character, that people see different aspects in him. I can see some arguments made about Atlantis, that point toward Western, i.e. white, Civilization. However, personally, I see far more things about Namor that point to him being 'coded' as PoC, even if his skin is white. The fact that he's bi-racial and very much the outsider, in both his worlds, for one thing.

People don't realize that these race swaps into POC don't work ever as good as when the character is undoubtedly created as a POC. Shang Chi is a good example, Black Panther is another and Miles Morales and Amadeus Cho are good more recent examples. Will I boycott a POC Namor? Hell no, but the part of me that wants to see the character that Bill Everett, John Buscema, Gene Colan and so many of the artists of my era drew will be still waiting for its live action interpretation. Like Thesa Thompson is beautiful and sexy and awesome as the Valkyrie in Thor Ragnarok but she is not the same tall blonde character with the white tresses I read about in the Defenders of my youth.

Shang Chi was 'race swapped' a bit. In the comics, originally, he was bi-racial. His mother was white. Of course, that may have been retconned in the comics later. I didn't keep up with the character, like I did Namor. ;p I don't think Cho has showed up in the MCU. As much as I dislike Marcus Johnson (Nick Fury Jr) in the comics, I think Samuel L has made MCU Nick Fury his own character, and I enjoy him immensely. I doubt he'll ever be recast as white Nick Fury in the MCU. Anyway, what's important to me in the MCU, is that they get a great actor who can portray the character -- and if Namor ever does show up, that's what will be needed.