Lorna Dane: Polaris Appreciation 2021

[Stormy]

About bipolar disorder, having this condition can be due to several factors like any mental disorder. Family conditions (which comes in Erik's case, I think it's not easy being a holocaust survivor, it brings a lot of scars and trauma), going through horrible moments, losing a family member... (Watching Genosha fall, hearing the screams of victims, and you just run for your life). Honestly, I see Polaris as a bipolar woman, something that needs to be addressed better.

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[Raz]

You mean their nervous system? They can overwork it and overload it, but that is not genetic bipolar.

Yeah, I agree...sorry, I probably could have worded that better but basically I was thinking any effect their powers might have on their minds isn't indicative of a traditional psychological disorder in the way we categorise disorders.

And re: the point Stormy raised about Malice, again I don't think that indicates anything at all about Lorna's mental health; it's not like Lorna created a personality within herself, Malice is literally an independent entity who manipulates/controls a host body. I don't think that possession fundamentally changed Lorna afterwards aside from giving her more trauma to have to deal with.

[Mercury]

One last thing the characters motivational core matters.

Milligan's run is case and point where both used Genosha and the fallout from its destruction to further her story and it worked and also tried to own her pathos by creating replacement traumas like possession and what she saw in space. Once he moved away from her Genosha pathos onto purely his pathos his story with the character entirely fell apart because Lorna's character lost her core motivational driver that actually worked.

What she saw in space, her mother's death, Rockslides death, being possessed for the nth time, and on and on were all stories that on paper could exist alongside Genosha if that part of her history had been respected by those writers, but most of the traumas were created with the clear purpose to be her new and only motivational driver and often they have her massively over react to things that aren't in the league or the same universe to what she experienced on Genosha.

That in turn sets the new trauma up as replacement to it instead of something she builds on as part of her story. Imagine Rockslides death with a few tweaks making it more personal and having Lorna less out of control and breaking down to the degree she did while she has transference from Rockslides death to the the death of the millions of Genoshans so its not so much about this mutant she probably never met personally?

This was what UXM 443 did well with Lorna's very fierce reaction to Synch's death in her debate with Xavier. She was and wasn't responding to his death in that he was having major transference discussing him with the millions of mutants so she was basically treating him as one of the millions who died regardless of the individual circumstances.

Over the the past decade and a half the attempt to festoon new trauma's to Lorna's story over and over again have harmed not enhanced it by how they were handled and what they were meant to do. Austen himself wasn't entirely enthused about what Morrison did with her without telling him, but he realized ways to adapt it to his story while enabling him to go in new directions and tying back into it when he felt it could have been used.

My prospective on Lorna right now in terms of new traumas is no way no how until the one that really should really matter in terms of her views on the idea of a mutant homeland is respected. Marvel can respect Magneto as a Genosha survivor while they can also respect him a survivor of the Holocaust for instance and Magneto unlike Lorna didn't live amongst the bodies for weeks with their memories in her head.

And in happier news art.



realjetcomics

I love your insight into Lorna. She's always been a favorite of mine, even though I know very little about her history. She's what I call an intuitive fave - one of those characters I instantly really like without having much knowledge about them or reason to. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

[jmc247]

I love your insight into Lorna. She's always been a favorite of mine, even though I know very little about her history. She's what I call an intuitive fave - one of those characters I instantly really like without having much knowledge about them or reason to. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

Your very welcome for your kind words.

Yeah, I agree...sorry, I probably could have worded that better but basically I was thinking any effect their powers might have on their minds isn't indicative of a traditional psychological disorder in the way we categorise disorders.

No, overloading your nervous system with raw power which Claremont used in his first X-Men storyline thirty years ago as Moria's theory explain some of Magneto's more wildly unhinged megalomaniacal moments has nothing to do with any kind of traditional psychological disorder and yes Lorna channels her power through her nervous system as well and using the theory put out by Moria in X-Men #1-3 she can overload her nervous system as well in extreme cases.

And re: the point Stormy raised about Malice, again I don't think that indicates anything at all about Lorna's mental health; it's not like Lorna created a personality within herself, Malice is literally an independent entity who manipulates/controls a host body. I don't think that possession fundamentally changed Lorna afterwards aside from giving her more trauma to have to deal with.

Agreed no retcon could make me believe that Malice fundamentally changed Lorna because she didn't start returning to anything close to how assertive and aggressive she was as a character (even previously in the 60s) until the mid 90s well after the possession and she didn't start moving beyond that until the start of the '00s.

[AbnormallyNormal]

Am I the only one who didn't really like her in X-Men #1?

I feel like she was used much as she was in the previous time she was in "the major book" in Uncanny run.

People get super excited just b/c she is on a team with A-listers but honestly where is her personality here? What's unique? What sets her apart?

I didn't get any of that and she felt very diluted and just kind of like a "there to be there" generic character who is Magneto's daughter with his same powers.

Just how I'm feeling on it... I want her to be in dramatic stories that explore her depth and grey side/ambiguity. Not just part of a purely heroic squad, it doesn't work for her IMO

Edit: I'm also sad about how short XFactor went... that's unfortunate. Although I can't say Leah wrote Lorna well in it either. Lot of opportunity to do stuff with her there, as opposed to in X-Men where the whole mandate is basically "mindless popcorn punching of bad guys" fare, and we know it's time limited and we know Lorna wasn't even chosen by the author in the first place...

We'll see if more is done with Lorna going forward, Krakoa was a GOLDEN new possible scenario for a character like her and they are SQUANDERING her so far. The only interesting stuff with her *at all* was Hickman written so far. And that was very very brief.

I'll also mention once again the crazy irony of how much inspiration and implications a lot of the COVER ART of her gives off. But the actual interior writing... is totally not like that

[jmc247]

Am I the only one who didn't really like her in X-Men #1?

I feel like she was used much as she was in the previous time she was in "the major book" in Uncanny run.

People get super excited just b/c she is on a team with A-listers but honestly where is her personality here? What's unique? What sets her apart?

I didn't get any of that and she felt very diluted and just kind of like a "there to be there" generic character who is Magneto's daughter with his same powers.

Just how I'm feeling on it... I want her to be in dramatic stories that explore her depth and grey side/ambiguity. Not just part of a purely heroic squad, it doesn't work for her IMO

Edit: I'm also sad about how short XFactor went... that's unfortunate. Although I can't say Leah wrote Lorna well in it either. Lot of opportunity to do stuff with her there, as opposed to in X-Men where the whole mandate is basically "mindless popcorn punching of bad guys" fare, and we know it's time limited and we know Lorna wasn't even chosen by the author in the first place...

We'll see if more is done with Lorna going forward, Krakoa was a GOLDEN new possible scenario for a character like her and they are SQUANDERING her so far. The only interesting stuff with her *at all* was Hickman written so far. And that was very very brief.

I'll also mention once again the crazy irony of how much inspiration and implications a lot of the COVER ART of her gives off. But the actual interior writing... is totally not like that

Its always important to have the poster who will check the assumptions of the others. What I will say is and you might be shocked by this. I don't disagree with you in a number of major areas, but my take is also more nuanced. This is a generic super hero title fighting an alien that wants to kill everyone. There wasn't many ways to inject any philosophical debate into this particular issue nor time or reasons to do it.

Your unhappiness seems to heavily come down to the core ethos of the book which is almost yelling at the audience at the top of its lungs from the start we are generic heroes... we fight for everyone as a way of refuting old time online fan arguments against the Krakoa era. Your belief is that is not what Lorna needs. Here is my take. Its the first issue and it was mostly set up (in fact I said in my review too much set up in places). I think Lorna needs both being able to show she can be a cool customer and show she is a philosophically complex character that can help drive the drama on a book.

Magneto showed both during the post M-Day decade of Endangered Species stories. Lorna was told to go piss off in space or investigate something irrelevant while being depicted as a mostly generic heroine with a temper which overall didn't do the character much good at all.

Lorna is right now making up for lost time not having been on the same ongoing with Jean and Scott since 1970 and not having been on the same ongoing as Rogue since 2006. If all there is to Lorna's story and character is looking cool with new shades, her coffee cup, and some good quips she will probably be still one of the cool things of the Summer of 2021, but ultimately she isn't going to stay very long among her contemporaries because you are correct she needs more then that to avoid the centrifugal forces that will conspire to pull her away from the core of events.

If Lorna suddenly contrary to her history and more recently House of X#5 shares the same views as Jean, Scott, and Rogue regarding using force, the human governments and their systems, etc. and is simply depicted as Magneto's put upon generic heroine daughter yearning to break free of him then yes the opportunities of the Krakoa era will have been squandered for her. We don't know that yet.

I will say part of Lorna's problem since she returned from a half decade in space is she needed a chance like this to reorient herself into the relationship sphere of the core X-Men in a more regular team. But, she also needed some significant runs in a more anti-hero/anti-villain direction which Magneto was handed by Bunn and some others. Lorna received neither and you aren't wrong that the Krakoa era should be a time for Lorna's more militant mutant princess hat to be greatly of use.

My take is Bunn flopped with Lorna as did Lorna on X-Factor Investigations for a boat load of reasons. One of the reasons that dovetails with this issue is each ignored the history of the character that really mattered in terms of her view of mutants in order to write down the character generically. You loved Bunn for all he would do for Magneto writing him as a complex bad ass and you tried to push his run on fans on this thread, but Lorna was a one dimensional generic throw back character. But, you were good with that as long as Mags was being depicted as a complex bad ass.

X-Men #1 did at very least have her dark humor mutant princess persona in her conversations with Scott something her past two ongoing runs didn't have. Though there was not many obvious ways of utilizing it in the main story of the first issue.

[salarta]

There are some things to keep in mind regarding Lorna on X-Men.

1. This is just the first issue of the run, we don't know where it's going from here.
2. This is the first time she's been on the flagship in almost 20 years.
3. This is the first time in decades she's had a chance to truly interact with her peers, especially Jean, in any meaningful way.

In my most ideal scenario, I'd want to see an incredibly deep dive into Lorna herself, as a mini or solo book. She has a lot of history to delve into and a lot of past poor usage in need of correcting. But, I think Marvel itself doesn't fully understand Lorna just yet. And if I'm being entirely honest with myself, it might be better for them to do what they're doing right now - including Lorna on the X-Men team and establishing her general personality - before trying their hands at a deep dive. Because they need to understand how she would think and act throughout the deep dive. They can't have her behaving in wildly different ways from one moment to the next.

I've already said I think X-Men #1 did great in capturing who Lorna is within context of its circumstances. I think it achieved the best moments of her darkly playful and sassy side that we saw in places like interacting with Crystal during War of Kings (interactions with Crystal and Luna being the only parts I thought were good) and positively built on it. Which I think is a great start for the book. We're going to have to expect things unfolding gradually.

I also think it's worth keeping recent history in mind. Not that "better than other recent treatment at Marvel" alone is enough. It wouldn't be. But I think it's worth acknowledging improvement. That Lorna got on the team through the X-Men vote matters greatly too. Fans said they want her here, and that she deserves a shot at more and better. That doesn't necessarily mean she gets everything right away though. Team books are team books, and each character needs time to shine with limited space. Realistically, if you converted X-Men #1 to a cartoon, what we saw would probably be at most the length of one half-hour episode. Even with the extra pages.

In short, of course as a Lorna fan I'd like more. But that's going to take time, both from an understanding perspective and a resources perspectives, and things need to be fair for the other characters along the way. I can say I went into X-Men #1 expecting to be underwhelmed due to it being the first issue, and it was much better than I expected.

[jmc247]

There are some things to keep in mind regarding Lorna on X-Men.

1. This is just the first issue of the run, we don't know where it's going from here.
2. This is the first time she's been on the flagship in almost 20 years.
3. This is the first time in decades she's had a chance to truly interact with her peers, especially Jean, in any meaningful way.

In my most ideal scenario, I'd want to see an incredibly deep dive into Lorna herself, as a mini or solo book. She has a lot of history to delve into and a lot of past poor usage in need of correcting. But, I think Marvel itself doesn't fully understand Lorna just yet. And if I'm being entirely honest with myself, it might be better for them to do what they're doing right now - including Lorna on the X-Men team and establishing her general personality - before trying their hands at a deep dive. Because they need to understand how she would think and act throughout the deep dive. They can't have her behaving in wildly different ways from one moment to the next.

I've already said I think X-Men #1 did great in capturing who Lorna is within context of its circumstances. I think it achieved the best moments of her darkly playful and sassy side that we saw in places like interacting with Crystal during War of Kings (interactions with Crystal and Luna being the only parts I thought were good) and positively built on it. Which I think is a great start for the book. We're going to have to expect things unfolding gradually.

I also think it's worth keeping recent history in mind. Not that "better than other recent treatment at Marvel" alone is enough. It wouldn't be. But I think it's worth acknowledging improvement. That Lorna got on the team through the X-Men vote matters greatly too. Fans said they want her here, and that she deserves a shot at more and better. That doesn't necessarily mean she gets everything right away though. Team books are team books, and each character needs time to shine with limited space. Realistically, if you converted X-Men #1 to a cartoon, what we saw would probably be at most the length of one half-hour episode. Even with the extra pages.

In short, of course as a Lorna fan I'd like more. But that's going to take time, both from an understanding perspective and a resources perspectives, and things need to be fair for the other characters along the way. I can say I went into X-Men #1 expecting to be underwhelmed due to it being the first issue, and it was much better than I expected.

I also found the parallel to Lorna's interaction with Crystal in War of Kings to be an apt comparison. This was the closest thing we have had to dark and playful political princess Lorna since then and its a direction the character should have continued in some form. I suspect the first 2 or 3 issues will be the writer orienting things with the character and the team relationships.

My point to AbnormallyNormal is I sense he is major anger is at the core theme of the book being mutants and generic old time heroics and he is taking it out on Lorna's character in it which is undeserving.

His point is correct on some of the big ideas that Lorna's character has needed, but after over a decade of missed opportunities for that there is no hurry as there is a whole bunch of relationships that were so underutilized they were virtually dead that need rebuilding.

[Mercury]

I love the Lorna fans in this thread. The respect and passion you have for her, coupled with your desire to see the writers do her justice, reminds me very much of how I feel about Jean. But, more importantly, I am learning quite a bit about Ms. Dane, so thank you for sharing!

Also, this thread has inspired me to listen to Connor Goldsmith's nearly three-hour Cerebro podcast dedicated to Lorna. (I love his podcast. I think I've listened to his Jean episode, which is also nearly three hours long, at least five times.)

Link to the episode: https://anchor.fm/cerebrocast/episod...cCreery-ep5id2

Link to Connor's site with a list of all episodes: https://www.connorgoldsmith.com/cerebro

[jmc247]

I love the Lorna fans in this thread. The respect and passion you have for her, coupled with your desire to see the writers do her justice, reminds me very much of how I feel about Jean. But, more importantly, I am learning quite a bit about Ms. Dane, so thank you for sharing!

Also, this thread has inspired me to listen to Connor Goldsmith's nearly three-hour Cerebro podcast dedicated to Lorna. (I love his podcast. I think I've listened to his Jean episode, which is also nearly three hours long, at least five times.)

Link to the episode: https://anchor.fm/cerebrocast/episod...cCreery-ep5id2

Link to Connor's site with a list of all episodes: https://www.connorgoldsmith.com/cerebro

There were mistakes here and there and things I agree and disagree with, but it was a decent overview.

Case in point where I would make some corrections like at 2:26 when they talk about Lorna's two motivations that writers have given her at points in time I would say the first was from JM Dematteis not PAD as it was after his run on X-Factor and I agree her actions and speech in the issue were assimilationist in that mutants and humans would live together, but she made clear earlier in the issue it would be on terms that would be very different then Xavier would countenance accepting the tactics of mutant oppressors and bigots.

It was one issue articulation of a third way between Magneto and Xavier at the time that sadly didn't get enough follow up. Lorna later in the decade goes to Genosha and helps rule the island and no it wasn't mutants only there were hundreds of thousands of humans who were the previous ruling class still there. After the commentary says that she must be bipolar because after the genocide she switches to a mutant nationalist separatist. Nah, its was an entirely reasonable evolution of character views given her experiences between the two eras. Over filtering Lorna's thinking and character through mental illness doesn't help the character.

As for Lorna and Magneto's relationship being horrible in their comments, eh I find they work pretty well together when they have big projects they were working on which hasn't been any time lately and are not specifically acting in roles as father and daughter.



The new House of M on Krakoa is an interesting idea in principle, but in execution so far its just been Magneto berating Lorna and counting her drinks.

[Lucyinthesky]

Agreed given their previous interactions on Genosha as well as some of their moments as father and daughter it´s almost painful to see them writting as stereotypical overbearing father to daughter.

Like they certainly lived without powers for months, supporting each other during a civil war on Genosha and worked as X-men together, their relationship is a lot close and interesting than most people, some of them editors and writers, give them credit for just because of nostalgia, because most are more used to see Pietro and Wanda as Magnus children instead of Lorna and if they see her that way then they think she should be written the same way they have been as family but they are not the same characters with the same story and their interactions should reflect this fact. .They didn´t always agree on everything but it became a project them both cared about and them being now family should not change this fact, it must be a reason to see them cooparate on different and new ways imo.

[juan678]

fan art by Romir Sucaldito

https://twitter.com/RPHutch1975/stat...78447801876480

[WallStreeter]

Am I the only one who didn't really like her in X-Men #1?

I feel like she was used much as she was in the previous time she was in "the major book" in Uncanny run.

People get super excited just b/c she is on a team with A-listers but honestly where is her personality here? What's unique? What sets her apart?

I didn't get any of that and she felt very diluted and just kind of like a "there to be there" generic character who is Magneto's daughter with his same powers.

Just how I'm feeling on it... I want her to be in dramatic stories that explore her depth and grey side/ambiguity. Not just part of a purely heroic squad, it doesn't work for her IMO

Edit: I'm also sad about how short XFactor went... that's unfortunate. Although I can't say Leah wrote Lorna well in it either. Lot of opportunity to do stuff with her there, as opposed to in X-Men where the whole mandate is basically "mindless popcorn punching of bad guys" fare, and we know it's time limited and we know Lorna wasn't even chosen by the author in the first place...

We'll see if more is done with Lorna going forward, Krakoa was a GOLDEN new possible scenario for a character like her and they are SQUANDERING her so far. The only interesting stuff with her *at all* was Hickman written so far. And that was very very brief.

I'll also mention once again the crazy irony of how much inspiration and implications a lot of the COVER ART of her gives off. But the actual interior writing... is totally not like that

How much characterization can you expect in just one issue that has to deal with a number of other characters, plus introduce the X-Men’s new base?

[jmc247]

Agreed given their previous interactions on Genosha as well as some of their moments as father and daughter it´s almost painful to see them writting as stereotypical overbearing father to daughter.

Like they certainly lived without powers for months, supporting each other during a civil war on Genosha and worked as X-men together, their relationship is a lot close and interesting than most people, some of them editors and writers, give them credit for just because of nostalgia, because most are more used to see Pietro and Wanda as Magnus children instead of Lorna and if they see her that way then they think she should be written the same way they have been as family but they are not the same characters with the same story and their interactions should reflect this fact. .They didn´t always agree on everything but it became a project them both cared about and them being now family should not change this fact, it must be a reason to see them cooparate on different and new ways imo.

I will admit I felt their interaction was suffering even before the new era as they had no joint project. There were a few good scenes between them yes. Reversing Havok's inversion was it for the last decade and that was something they just needed a telepath to fix. I felt their interaction needed something extra in the Bunn era as if there were morally complicated issues or contentious issues it was always a debate between Briar and Magneto.

On paper in the new era their relationship shouldn't be suffering because they both have complicated issues to deal with regarding the mutant homeland and its place in the world, but it certainly is because other then Hickman writers have removed any politics from their relationship.

In the 616 Hickman is the best writer of the Lorna-Magneto relationship of last decade. Before that I would have to say Alan Davis from his work in the Genosha era.

AU I would have to say Secret War House of M. Though the author made Magneto a bit too block headed for my tastes their relationship was a more developed version of the political relationship we saw with Alan Davis on Genosha.

[kevlon]

fan art by Romir Sucaldito

https://twitter.com/RPHutch1975/stat...78447801876480

Ooooo is that sunfires costume? First time I've seen a proper picture of it.

Love Lorna and so glad she gets her chance to bask in the lime light.