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  1. #556
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    spoilers:
    I thought the fact she was able to casually hold down a goddess was pretty cool, but yeah she didn't do much.
    end of spoilers
    That was cool, but we really didn't see a lot of what exactly she was doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krakoa View Post
    This issue felt a little to me like the “we know we’re getting canceled so have to wrap up a few plotlines at the same time” issue.
    Yeah, I agree.

  2. #557
    Invincible Member juan678's Avatar
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  3. #558
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post




    Link



    I believe they were referring to what some might call the core theme with the character. Its the question that matters above everything else I would say in terms of Lorna's interaction with the other X-Men as it represents the pivot point that will define her relationship to them.
    Holy crap those pictures are amazing

    Well that's all I have to say now, I'm checking up on the info it seems Lorna is being into a new book now, and I have the same opinion about her as I've had for the past 3 or so years: as long as she is written in a complex/ambiguous/grey way, she works awesome. If they try to make her a cookie cutter "team member" she will fail badly.
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

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  4. #559

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Holy crap those pictures are amazing

    Well that's all I have to say now, I'm checking up on the info it seems Lorna is being into a new book now, and I have the same opinion about her as I've had for the past 3 or so years: as long as she is written in a complex/ambiguous/grey way, she works awesome. If they try to make her a cookie cutter "team member" she will fail badly.
    Runs have been hit or miss in that area with Lorna. Here would be my grades in terms of the results of the attempts in various runs to tackle that part of the character. Runs that didn't make an attempt or relied exclusively on mind control for trying to sell Lorna as complex I am not going to grade.

    J. M. Dematteis' X-Factor:

    Pro: He brought forth the most philosophically complex Lorna of the 1990s. He resurrected her very original 1960s eye for an eye philosophy and gave her a keep an abiding rage at the plight of mutants and a desire to make the world better.

    Con: He pulled his punches. He didn't have Lorna fully honest with the ideas she was playing around with and ultimately didn't commit to Lorna as a true middle ground character and went back to romantic intrigue, generic hero antics, and Malice as story arcs.

    Her pro-mutant stance was lacking a big trauma to propel her change of thinking so it probably came off to many like another generic female heroine gets fed up tale.

    Lorna ambiguity grade: [C+ for early stuff and C- for later stuff] or overall C

    The next X-Factor run of the mid 90s where she goes back to occasionally talking tough and having sporadic uncontrolled violent emotional outbursts I would given an F and not for fantastic.

    Genosha- Alan Davis, Claremont, Fabian Nicieza, Scott Lobdell

    Pro: Shows up to help the mutant population and maintain mutant rule on the island. Learns from Magneto how to use her powers.

    Con: Different writers have different takes on why she was there. The first writers were more ambitious, but later writers pulled their punches.

    Grade: C+ for the early stuff, D- for the later stuff.

    Austen

    Pro- She very much had on her ass kicking boots on for Purifier wannabes. This was the first run where we actually saw Lorna relatively unrestrained with her powers meaning she was acting like a one woman Punisher. She also articulated in a powerful and forthright manner the problems as she saw it with Xavier's philosophy on mutants. That was the most relevant the character ever seemed to the x-line before or since.

    Con- It was a last minute change by Austen to his scripts after reading Morrison's New X-Men 132 and Lorna walking around in the ruins of Genosha. That caused a weakness to his early scripts that had to be modulated. He also rapped up his story too much in his planned love triangle which angered some fans which might have otherwise been amenable to it.

    Grade A-

    Milligan

    Pro: Lorna was still often explosively aggressive in this run.

    Con: Lorna's hyper aggression after the first issue was portrayed as uncontrolled instability and at times her just being loony rather then a throughout set of decisions by the character. Lorna lost any real interest in mutants and their rights in this run.

    Grade: F+

    PAD - ANXF

    Pro- Lorna was very aggressive and her eye for an eye philosophy returned.

    Con- It varied on if Lorna was making an decision or was just uncontrolled emotional. Lorna doesn't come off well totally uncontrolled emotional. She was lacking a clear view on mutant rights.

    Grade: D first six issues, C+ rest of issues.

    Bunn

    Pro- Lorna had a few fleeting moments where a hard charging Lorna appeared.

    Con- Those moments were very few and far between. Lorna had no discernable mutant rights views. Having a high opinion of your father Magneto or not doesn't make for a philosophically complicated character and neither does being possessed for the dozenth time.

    Grade: D+

    Keep in mind these are grades of pre-House of X stories only related to handling of Lorna's complexity.

    Final thoughts: Runs that do not base her aggression and/or activism on anger and/or PTSD from a wrong committed to mutants tend to use generalized instability as a generic rational. When that happens there is an extreme amount of variability in her characterization and that is typically not good. Talk is also very cheap for Lorna and tough talk never backed up by action doesn't mean much. Runs that try to hedge on Lorna's point of view or pass her point of view off as due to loyalty to others tend to be far less effective and powerful then having her with a clear set of views and laying them on the table for all the world to see.

    The first season of The Gifted was probably the best depicted story arc of philosophical ambiguity the character has had to date. It presented her as the master of her own story and her own views and set them apart from her friends and even boyfriend. The second season failed rather spectacularly for Lorna though by being chickens in terms of their core theme with the character and trying to use another character to shift personal responsibility to.

    Wolverine and the X-Men depicted a complex Lorna, but in the end of the day for the young version it was all rapped up in her feelings about her father. Going too far in the direction of depicting her as a parrot for her father is a bad mistake in the comics though more reasonable stance to take in the WATXM set up. The future version we saw was a more complicated character.

    House of M Lorna is one of the most interesting and complex versions of Lorna as generally speaking she is a jaded, ends justify the means, and very wise political leader to mutants. She developed into the women we know in House of M as we saw in their origins story without knowing Magneto was her father so they didn't fall into the Wolverine and the X-Men indoctrinated princess trap.
    Last edited by jmc247; 05-13-2021 at 08:19 AM.

  5. #560
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Runs have been hit or miss in that area with Lorna. Here would be my grades in terms of the results of the attempts in various runs to tackle that part of the character. Runs that didn't make an attempt or relied exclusively on mind control for trying to sell Lorna as complex I am not going to grade.

    J. M. Dematteis' X-Factor:

    Pro: He brought forth the most philosophically complex Lorna of the 1990s. He resurrected her very original 1960s eye for an eye philosophy and gave her a keep an abiding rage at the plight of mutants and a desire to make the world better.

    Con: He pulled his punches. He didn't have Lorna fully honest with the ideas she was playing around with and ultimately didn't commit to Lorna as a true middle ground character and went back to romantic intrigue, generic hero antics, and Malice as story arcs.

    Her pro-mutant stance was lacking a big trauma to propel her change of thinking so it probably came off to many like another generic female heroine gets fed up tale.

    Lorna ambiguity grade: C

    The next X-Factor run of the mid 90s where she goes back to occasionally talking tough and having sporadic uncontrolled violent emotional outbursts I would given an F and not for fantastic.

    Genosha- Alan Davis, Claremont, Fabian Nicieza, Scott Lobdell

    Pro: Shows up to help the mutant population and maintain mutant rule on the island. Learns from Magneto how to use her powers.

    Con: Different writers have different takes on why she was there. The first writers were more ambitious, but later writers pulled their punches.

    Grade: C+ for the early stuff, D- for the later stuff.

    Austen

    Pro- She very much had on her ass kicking boots on for Purifier wannabes. This was the first run where we actually saw Lorna relatively unrestrained with her powers meaning she was acting like a one woman Punisher. She also articulated in a powerful and forthright manner the problems as she saw it with Xavier's philosophy on mutants. That was the most relevant the character ever seemed to the x-line before or since.

    Con- It was a last minute change by Austen to his scripts after reading Morrison's New X-Men 132 and Lorna walking around in the ruins of Genosha. That caused a weakness to his early scripts that had to be modulated. He also rapped up his story too much in his planned love triangle which angered some fans which might have otherwise been amenable to it.

    Grade A-

    Milligan

    Pro: Lorna was still often explosively aggressive in this run.

    Con: Lorna's hyper aggression after the first issue was portrayed as uncontrolled instability and at times her just being loony rather then a throughout set of decisions by the character. Lorna lost any real interest in mutants and their rights in this run.

    Grade: F+

    PAD - ANXF

    Pro- Lorna was very aggressive and her eye for an eye philosophy returned.

    Con- It varied on if Lorna was making an decision or was just uncontrolled emotional. Lorna doesn't come off well totally uncontrolled emotional. She was lacking a clear view on mutant rights.

    Grade: D first six issues, C+ rest of issues.

    Bunn

    Pro- Lorna had a few fleeting moments where a hard charging Lorna appeared.

    Con- Those moments were very few and far between. Lorna had no discernable mutant rights views. Having a high opinion of your father Magneto or not doesn't make for a philosophically complicated character and neither does being possessed for the dozenth time.

    Grade: D+

    Keep in mind these are grades of pre-House of X stories only related to handling of Lorna's complexity.

    Final thoughts: Runs that do not base her aggression and/or activism on anger and/or PTSD from a wrong committed to mutants tend to use generalized instability as a generic rational. When that happens there is an extreme amount of variability in her characterization and that is typically not good. Talk is also very cheap for Lorna and tough talk never backed up by action doesn't mean much.

    The first season of The Gifted was probably the best depicted story arc of philosophical ambiguity the character has had to date. It presented her as the master of her own story and her own views and set them apart from her friends and even boyfriend. The second season failed rather spectacularly for Lorna though by being chickens in terms of their core theme with the character and trying to use another character to shift personal responsibility to.

    Wolverine and the X-Men depicted a complex Lorna, but in the end of the day for the young version it was all rapped up in her feelings about her father. Going too far in the direction of depicting her as a parrot for her father is a bad mistake in the comics though more reasonable stance to take in the WATXM set up. The future version we saw was a more complicated character.

    House of M Lorna is one of the most interesting and complex versions of Lorna as generally speaking she is a jaded, ends justify the means, and very wise political leader to mutants. She developed into the women we know in House of M as we saw in their origins story without knowing Magneto was her father so they didn't fall into the Wolverine and the X-Men indoctrinated princess trap.
    You know a character has been served poorly when the highest marks go to Austen.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  6. #561

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    You know a character has been served poorly when the highest marks go to Austen.
    I've made this argument a few times, actually. What he did with her is very much appreciated and genuinely the best 616 Lorna has had so far, even with the faults. But if we accept the view of him being as bad as people say he is (I'm not arguing either way here), then it really says a lot about Marvel's general track record with Lorna that he's the one who's used and understood her best. It shows that she needs a more thoughtful, caring eye to who she is and what she's been through. Simply relying on nostalgia or outdated tropes while disregarding key moments and their impact on her will not serve her - or anything she's in - very well at all.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress. Avatar by Ty Romsa (not commissioned by me).

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

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  7. #562

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    You know a character has been served poorly when the highest marks go to Austen.
    Just to be clear this isn't a grade on everything that was done with the character good or bad in a certain run. To measure that one would have to add in other factors which would change the scores in various areas such as ANXF deserves credit for furthering the story between Lorna and her once family.

    In the case of Austen's run it had two big things going for him that other writers have not had that made things easier.

    -Magneto taken off the board. He was dead or assumed dead most of his run. That shouldn’t matter, but it clearly made her story arc easier.

    -In terms of JM's run with his more complicated Lorna you also had Magneto taken off the board by Xavier after he put him in a coma in Fatal Attractions in this era. Lorna wasn't even officially related to Magneto at the time, but I think thematically it probably had an impact in so far as there was no counterpoint worldview.

    What JM did not have was a good trauma to mine and instead rehashed the mind control weak sauce.

    -The other thing Austen had going for him was he had been gifted by Grant Morrison a great traumatic story.
    Last edited by jmc247; 05-13-2021 at 09:57 PM.

  8. #563
    Amazing Member Angleman70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I don't know since I'm not aware of what Marvel's plans are. They confirmed somewhere that yearly meant real world time, not comic book time, but afaik they've never said the entire team would have to change or the character who won the vote would have to leave when a year was up. Lorna could be out after a year, or she could stick around while other characters leave, we'll need more info from Marvel.
    Thanks. I see this as it might go 50/50 for Lorna. It would be a great disservice if she only gets a year and gets ousted by the powers that be. And the plus side would be that she gets more interest if Marvel handles her correctly. That is the hope of course!

  9. #564
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angleman70 View Post
    Thanks. I see this as it might go 50/50 for Lorna. It would be a great disservice if she only gets a year and gets ousted by the powers that be. And the plus side would be that she gets more interest if Marvel handles her correctly. That is the hope of course!
    The hope for any character that does time on the flagship is to get enough development to inspire the next writer to either keep them on, or get them a meaty role in one of the other titles. Hope you guys get what you are hoping for.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  10. #565
    Amazing Member Angleman70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    The hope for any character that does time on the flagship is to get enough development to inspire the next writer to either keep them on, or get them a meaty role in one of the other titles. Hope you guys get what you are hoping for.
    Thanks! We appreciate it. Polaris is no slouch when it comes to getting the job done. Itís her muddled past which writers ignore or exacerbate. No clear direction to her present goals or personality.

  11. #566

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angleman70 View Post
    Thanks! We appreciate it. Polaris is no slouch when it comes to getting the job done. It’s her muddled past which writers ignore or exacerbate. No clear direction to her present goals or personality.
    Lorna does suffer massively in this department.

    In terms of the personality issue its a red herring. Different writers are going to have different takes on how she interacts with other characters no matter what happens.

    It’s a faint to avoid dealing with the aspect to the character they can actually streamline such as what is her over arching goal.
    Last edited by jmc247; 05-14-2021 at 11:02 AM.

  12. #567

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angleman70 View Post
    Thanks. I see this as it might go 50/50 for Lorna. It would be a great disservice if she only gets a year and gets ousted by the powers that be. And the plus side would be that she gets more interest if Marvel handles her correctly. That is the hope of course!
    Even if she only gets a year, a lot hinges on a) what happens with her during that year, and b) how others at Marvel behave around and after. Lorna on the new X-Men team shows a ton of promise, especially with the buzz generated around the vote, but it won't amount to anything if she doesn't have both a depiction that works for her and support needed for it.

    Popularity of Lorna through Gifted is a good example of what can happen in a year. The comic won't have as much chance to tell stories with her as a show does, but a powerful, impactful story that captures her complexity and history can be enough. Similarly, while Killing Joke was horrible for Batgirl and I'd urge people not to read it (and I say that as someone who actually did), it was powerful enough at capturing Joker's complexity and history to make an impression and launch Joker into a very iconic status for decades. Of course, it wasn't Killing Joke all by its lonesome that managed to pull it off for him. He needed support and usage beyond a single story too.

    Though there's also another lesson to be learned with Killing Joke: overstaying nostalgia. It was good for its time for Joker. It was bad for Batgirl, and it's increasingly recognized as such with each passing year. Joker really doesn't need it anymore, and even if he did, it would require a major overhaul in its treatment of Batgirl. DC half-recognized this with the Killing Joke film... then failed as they decided the best way to "do better" was to throw in a relationship with Batman, as if making the emotional stakes higher for another male character somehow improved treatment of the female character who ends up getting shot and degraded. It sits at a 39% critic rating (out of 41 reviews) and 51% audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes right now for a reason.
    Last edited by salarta; 05-14-2021 at 08:38 AM.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress. Avatar by Ty Romsa (not commissioned by me).

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  13. #568

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    Popularity of Lorna through Gifted is a good example of what can happen in a year. The comic won't have as much chance to tell stories with her as a show does, but a powerful, impactful story that captures her complexity and history can be enough.
    I am going stay guardedly optimistic for her coming run. In terms of The Gifted characters I will say Duggan has done a very good job with his take on the Cuckoos of late. Esme’s success is based on something Lorna has been lacking and that is a core.

    I have a good idea how Esme would interact right now with the X-Men if placed in the position. I have no idea with Lorna and that is a positive in not being spoiled, but not a positive in the big picture.
    Last edited by jmc247; 05-16-2021 at 06:04 AM.

  14. #569

  15. #570
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    I love the beach scene!

    Also Daddy Pimp Mags,er, I mean Magneto in his Gala Garb!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

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