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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundershot View Post
    Has Lorna ever had to deal with Malice outside of her body? She controlled her for years, but I don’t remember any post possession confrontation. Heck, is Malice a mutant? If so, how would she fit into Krakoa?
    Yes, she did. Malice took control of Havok in the 90s, and Lorna fought Alex/Malice in Hawaii I believe.



    Sinister killed Malice in the end.



    I assume she was a mutant, but we don't know enough about her.

  2. #47
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncannyLZ View Post
    I dropped the book last issue so I don’t know the full details of #6 but from what I’ve seen X-Factor is still bad and worse for Lorna. Why does she need to flex that she’s the “big gun”? She threw Krakoa into space, has fought the hulk, almost killed Vulcan and was a key member in Infinity War. We know she’s a big gun. She’s not a new character. Polaris being mind control is boring with how many times it’s been done and feels like Polaris is just being written like a trope instead of a character that’s been around since the 60s. I’d love if Polaris gets picked for the X-Men draft and leaves the book.
    As it's presented it isn't Lorna reminding us, the readers, that she is a heavy hitter. We already know that. She isn't saying it for nothing or just for exposition's sake - she's saying it because Siryn or the Morrigan or both of them are actively underestimating her. And once the Morrigan realizes that the reason that she hypnotically suggests Lorna harm her co-worker's investigation into whatever is going on with Theresa is because Lorna is the biggest threat that is present there. It's not Rachel, or Jean Paul, or Aurora - all three of whom are incredibly formidable in their own rights - it's Lorna.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I hate it bc Bunn JUST did this in X-men Blue not that long ago. She was able to resist and overcome her mind control of Malice so to see her get mind controlled yet again is a disappointment. I wish I could say she will likely resist Morrigan in the next issue but I doubt she will be written as that strong
    Yeah but Bunn also undermined that by pointing out that the Malice Lorna fought against was a alternate and weaker version of the 616 Malice

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    As it's presented it isn't Lorna reminding us, the readers, that she is a heavy hitter. We already know that. She isn't saying it for nothing or just for exposition's sake - she's saying it because Siryn or the Morrigan or both of them are actively underestimating her. And once the Morrigan realizes that the reason that she hypnotically suggests Lorna harm her co-worker's investigation into whatever is going on with Theresa is because Lorna is the biggest threat that is present there. It's not Rachel, or Jean Paul, or Aurora - all three of whom are incredibly formidable in their own rights - it's Lorna.
    My sentiments exactly.

  4. #49
    Incredible Member Thundershot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    Yes, she did. Malice took control of Havok in the 90s, and Lorna fought Alex/Malice in Hawaii I believe.



    Sinister killed Malice in the end.



    I assume she was a mutant, but we don't know enough about her.
    Ahhhh.... I do remember that! I also found where she was called a mutant. A+X 11, where Scott and Superior Spider-Man team up. Scott calls her a mutant.

  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    When has Lorna been "owned" by other characters in this book? A playful conversation with a fellow teammate? An encounter with a person she thought was her longtime friend but actually is a irish death goddess who possessed her friend's body? None of these situations are anything close to an attempt to humiliate the character. Are characters not allowed to be taken by surprise or have banter with their friends?
    "Playful" content has always been good at making problems look innocuous. Plenty of 4chan memes used humor to make awful things sound more acceptable.

    There are ways to be playful that don't require putting down a character in the process, especially one who's had a lot of misrepresentation, undermined potential and lost opportunities specifically because of poor opinions of her at Marvel.

    But if it "must" be done, why not have the same dished out to other characters? How about, for example, Rachel charges into a fight with a robot and gets knocked out so Lorna can quip about how this is why you let your mistress of magnetism take point? Same thing as the panel I shared earlier, just a scenario that fits their powers and swaps their roles. If it's fine to see it done to Lorna, then it should be fine happening to everyone else on the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    She's also had the most visible arc over the course of the run out of any of her co-stars, I dont see the book as detrimental to her at all. She has to be challenged to develop as a character so I'm chill w/ it
    Visible does not instantly mean good though. A book where Superman is highly visible isn't very good if his depiction is focused on how easily everyone can beat him down and making him look "stupid." (Which is actually one of the big problems I have with Miller's Dark Knight graphic novels on reflection; they're so focused on making Batman look cool that they throw Superman under the bus to achieve it, and it's ultimately resulted in things like Man of Steel).

    A character can be challenged without being put down or ignoring past experiences in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by UncannyLZ View Post
    I dropped the book last issue so I don’t know the full details of #6 but from what I’ve seen X-Factor is still bad and worse for Lorna. Why does she need to flex that she’s the “big gun”? She threw Krakoa into space, has fought the hulk, almost killed Vulcan and was a key member in Infinity War. We know she’s a big gun. She’s not a new character. Polaris being mind control is boring with how many times it’s been done and feels like Polaris is just being written like a trope instead of a character that’s been around since the 60s. I’d love if Polaris gets picked for the X-Men draft and leaves the book.
    I think X-Factor's trying to use "impressive feats" and things like the big gun line as substitutes for anything actually meaningfully good for Lorna. It's easier than trying to understand her and depict her respectfully. "If I do some showy things, I can write her completely out of character and people will say those showy things mean I'm doing good by her."

    Let's compare this power use with memorable, meaningful past use. Lorna launching Krakoa into space is memorable (and only recently) because 1) we saw the team of core X-Men work together to make it happen, and 2) we saw Lorna's strength of character in pushing her limits. Lorna being pulled from the wreckage of Genosha and her powers storing Genosha's last moments is memorable because of the weight of all those lives lost, and witnessing the trauma Lorna experienced. Lorna's origin story is memorable because it was the moment her powers first manifested and it killed her parents. There were real character beats and stakes tied to each. We don't have those stakes with X-Factor. Which isn't automatically bad. You can't have groundbreaking moments all day every day. But if impressive feats are all you're offering, they need to consider her history and mean something more than plot device. Otherwise they're empty; especially if they lead into things like Magneto berating her for perceived weakness or Siryn calling her dumb for being written as deciding to confront Siryn on her own.

    And yeah, actions speak louder than words. Marvel's had a problem of late with Lorna where they say things that sound nice but their actions are the opposite. Having Lorna say she's a big gun is worthless if the story proceeds to make her look like she's not.

    Lorna would be better off on X-Men, of course. Though I still say if Lorna's there then Havok shouldn't be, and if Havok's there then she shouldn't be. Limbo would be better than X-Factor.
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  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Lorna is unlikely to join X-Men IMO. With her being on X-Factor for the foreseeable future, I don't suspect that she'll be placed on that squad. Would love to see it though. Polaris interacting with Cyclops and Jean on a frequent basis would be great.

    While I don't think we'll be seeing Lorna on X-Men, I do hope we'll see Hickman writing her again. I've thoroughly enjoyed his take on the character, and I hope we get to see more of his Lorna this year.
    Last edited by Soulsword323; 01-13-2021 at 12:49 PM.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Lorna's time during the Morrison/Austen era was the focus of this week's BoTA podcast

    https://www.comicsxf.com/2021/01/11/...-book-of-love/
    So I decided to listen to this (thanks for posting it), and... wow.

    The main impression I take away from it is that they hate Austen's run to a point where it taints their judgment of everything related to it. There's no question that Austen did bad work in his run that missed the mark for various characters. But at one point they say *everything* was bad, and that's simply not true when it comes to Lorna.

    Which isn't saying his Lorna was perfect either. One problem I had with Sacred Vows (Uncanny X-Men #425-426) and other issues as I've said before, which they didn't mention, is how they had Lorna regularly blaming Annie and wanting to hurt/kill her rather than placing the blame on Havok (as written by Austen) where it belongs. Yet her treatment in general by Austen is among the best she's been written in spite of those problems.

    The moment I first caught something off was as they wrapped up New X-Men #132. They talked about it like it was a stain on Lorna's character, suggesting that if not for Austen's run she could've come back later as if New X-Men #132 never happened. I took it as saying everyone should just pretend she never went through the genocide, never experienced its trauma, and she should go back to how she was used before it. Which I find disgusting. I would feel that way even if Austen never wrote her.

    Then they reviewed Uncanny X-Men #425-426. As they were talking about Lorna taking the Gambit stripper home, one of them said Lorna "sounds like a completely different character." They took the time to emphasize they're not trying to shame Lorna, and how they're fully on board for the Emma/Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine type of stuff. They also suggest that this might have been set up partially to excuse Havok's relationship with Annie. So it's not a matter of "slut shaming" Lorna. But when someone says something like that, you have to question what OTHER depictions of Lorna they're thinking of when they say it.

    That leads to what stood out to me the most. Uncanny X-Men #442-443. When they get to that arc, they frame it as Lorna wanting to commit genocide, and that's not what happens. She's not saying "Hey, let's all go out and kill us some humans." If that's what she wanted, she wouldn't be arguing with Xavier. She'd just go do it. What's actually happening is Lorna arguing the point of double standards, asking what makes Magneto's actions worse than the humans', why humans can decimate Genosha and consider it simply a bad day that doesn't require changes within humanity while an attack on New York is a crime against all of humanity. Toward the end, it evolves into Lorna pushing Xavier on "Is there ANY scenario that merits violence as self-defense?" The ultimate conclusion, here, being that Lorna certainly isn't saying they need to commit genocide - but she does think there are situations where violence is warranted for self-defense. A view wrapped up entirely within the horrific trauma of the Genoshan genocide and Lorna never, ever, ever wanting anything like it to happen again.

    And the podcast sums up all of that complexity as "Lorna thinks genocide is good, but not wanting to kill Xavier is odd."

    I'm not saying either of them are lying or trying to do anything malicious. I'm sure it's genuinely how they read it. But I think their summary is badly off the mark and misrepresents that whole story.





    Notably, they chose to discuss Sacred Vows but not Uncanny X-Men #431 which gives a first hand account from Lorna's POV of just how bad the genocide was for her. Maybe they already covered that issue in a different episode. But it doesn't make much sense to me to discuss two stories where the genocide played a huge role in her depiction, and not talk about the issue where we see what it was like for her. It feeds directly into why she talks and acts the way she does in Uncanny X-Men #442-443.

    In the end, these are all opinions, and they're certainly entitled to theirs just as I'm entitled to mine. I do like that they take the time to try to ground what they're talking about in what was happening in comics when those issues were published.
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  8. #53
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Notably, they chose to discuss Sacred Vows but not Uncanny X-Men #431 which gives a first hand account from Lorna's POV of just how bad the genocide was for her. Maybe they already covered that issue in a different episode. But it doesn't make much sense to me to discuss two stories where the genocide played a huge role in her depiction, and not talk about the issue where we see what it was like for her. It feeds directly into why she talks and acts the way she does in Uncanny X-Men #442-443.

    In the end, these are all opinions, and they're certainly entitled to theirs just as I'm entitled to mine. I do like that they take the time to try to ground what they're talking about in what was happening in comics when those issues were published.
    They discussed it when they ranked The Draco. Its currently ranked the worst X-story

    https://www.comicsxf.com/2018/05/14/...-%F0%9F%92%A9/

  9. #54
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    So I decided to listen to this (thanks for posting it), and... wow.

    The main impression I take away from it is that they hate Austen's run to a point where it taints their judgment of everything related to it. There's no question that Austen did bad work in his run that missed the mark for various characters. But at one point they say *everything* was bad, and that's simply not true when it comes to Lorna.

    Which isn't saying his Lorna was perfect either. One problem I had with Sacred Vows (Uncanny X-Men #425-426) and other issues as I've said before, which they didn't mention, is how they had Lorna regularly blaming Annie and wanting to hurt/kill her rather than placing the blame on Havok (as written by Austen) where it belongs. Yet her treatment in general by Austen is among the best she's been written in spite of those problems.

    The moment I first caught something off was as they wrapped up New X-Men #132. They talked about it like it was a stain on Lorna's character, suggesting that if not for Austen's run she could've come back later as if New X-Men #132 never happened. I took it as saying everyone should just pretend she never went through the genocide, never experienced its trauma, and she should go back to how she was used before it. Which I find disgusting. I would feel that way even if Austen never wrote her.

    Then they reviewed Uncanny X-Men #425-426. As they were talking about Lorna taking the Gambit stripper home, one of them said Lorna "sounds like a completely different character." They took the time to emphasize they're not trying to shame Lorna, and how they're fully on board for the Emma/Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine type of stuff. They also suggest that this might have been set up partially to excuse Havok's relationship with Annie. So it's not a matter of "slut shaming" Lorna. But when someone says something like that, you have to question what OTHER depictions of Lorna they're thinking of when they say it.

    That leads to what stood out to me the most. Uncanny X-Men #442-443. When they get to that arc, they frame it as Lorna wanting to commit genocide, and that's not what happens. She's not saying "Hey, let's all go out and kill us some humans." If that's what she wanted, she wouldn't be arguing with Xavier. She'd just go do it. What's actually happening is Lorna arguing the point of double standards, asking what makes Magneto's actions worse than the humans', why humans can decimate Genosha and consider it simply a bad day that doesn't require changes within humanity while an attack on New York is a crime against all of humanity. Toward the end, it evolves into Lorna pushing Xavier on "Is there ANY scenario that merits violence as self-defense?" The ultimate conclusion, here, being that Lorna certainly isn't saying they need to commit genocide - but she does think there are situations where violence is warranted for self-defense. A view wrapped up entirely within the horrific trauma of the Genoshan genocide and Lorna never, ever, ever wanting anything like it to happen again.

    And the podcast sums up all of that complexity as "Lorna thinks genocide is good, but not wanting to kill Xavier is odd."

    I'm not saying either of them are lying or trying to do anything malicious. I'm sure it's genuinely how they read it. But I think their summary is badly off the mark and misrepresents that whole story.





    Notably, they chose to discuss Sacred Vows but not Uncanny X-Men #431 which gives a first hand account from Lorna's POV of just how bad the genocide was for her. Maybe they already covered that issue in a different episode. But it doesn't make much sense to me to discuss two stories where the genocide played a huge role in her depiction, and not talk about the issue where we see what it was like for her. It feeds directly into why she talks and acts the way she does in Uncanny X-Men #442-443.

    In the end, these are all opinions, and they're certainly entitled to theirs just as I'm entitled to mine. I do like that they take the time to try to ground what they're talking about in what was happening in comics when those issues were published.
    I don't take xavier files guy seriously. The podcast is such a joke.

  10. #55
    Hi, Sage. nandes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    "Playful" content has always been good at making problems look innocuous. Plenty of 4chan memes used humor to make awful things sound more acceptable.

    There are ways to be playful that don't require putting down a character in the process, especially one who's had a lot of misrepresentation, undermined potential and lost opportunities specifically because of poor opinions of her at Marvel.

    But if it "must" be done, why not have the same dished out to other characters? How about, for example, Rachel charges into a fight with a robot and gets knocked out so Lorna can quip about how this is why you let your mistress of magnetism take point? Same thing as the panel I shared earlier, just a scenario that fits their powers and swaps their roles. If it's fine to see it done to Lorna, then it should be fine happening to everyone else on the book.
    A comparison to racist memes is way off base, especially if your implication is that the scene is intentionally harmful - because it isn't. There's literally no problem with a funny scene in a book which the tone varies between funny and light and disturbing at all times. If you want examples of other funny scenes involving other characters I can give you just off the top of my head - in issue #1, when the team is making a investigation, Daken uses his charm powers to interrogate someone but it ends up being useless since they learn the information through other means anyways. Does it mean Leah want to put his character down? No, it's a funny situation which also works to portray another side of Daken.

    In X-Factor, Lorna has been portrayed as many things - as someone insecure but who tries to do better herself and for others, someone who's been compassionate to fellow team mates like Rockslide and friends like Shatterstar and Siryn, someone who's funny and can also make mistakes from time to time like the regretful voice mail to Alex, someone who's a reference to Northstar in terms of leadership, someone who has a conflictive relationship with her father because of the distance they've had in the past and the expectations he sets on her. She has many layers. But I understand none of these things fit the narrative that a female writer, who's shown to have lots of care for research and respecting continuity, supposedly dislikes the character.
    Last edited by nandes; 01-13-2021 at 03:44 PM.

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    They discussed it when they ranked The Draco. Its currently ranked the worst X-story

    https://www.comicsxf.com/2018/05/14/...-%F0%9F%92%A9/
    Thanks. That's good reason for not covering it in this episode.

    I'm not planning to listen to that one. I'll just say if it's considered the worst for other reasons then fair enough, but if Lorna's experiences with the genocide are part of why they consider it the worst X-story then I think that's grounds for me to disregard everything they have to say about Lorna from here on out.

    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    A comparison to racist memes is way off base, especially if your implication is that the scene is intentionally harmful - because it isn't. There's literally no problem with a funny scene in a book which the tone varies between funny and light and disturbing at all times. If you want examples of other funny scenes involving other characters I can give you just off the top of my head - in issue #1, when the team is making a investigation, Daken uses his charm powers to interrogate someone but it ends up being useless since they learn the information through other means anyways. Does it mean Leah want to put his character down? No, it's a funny situation which also works to portray another side of Daken.

    In X-Factor, Lorna has been portrayed as many things - as someone insecure but who tries to do better herself and for others, someone who's been compassionate to fellow team mates like Rockslide and friends like Shatterstar and Siryn, someone who's funny and can also make mistakes from time to time like the regretful voice mail to Alex, someone who's a reference to Northstar in terms of leadership, someone who has a conflictive relationship with her father because of the distance they've had in the past and the expectations he sets on her. She has many layers.
    I don't think it's off base. It's obviously nowhere near the same scale of badness, but the basic issue remains the same, and it's the best example for making my point that came to mind. If you have a better example, please share.

    I don't find any of the things I've cited to be funny. I see them as little digs at a character regularly misused by Marvel, that only exacerbate the problem. Character death by a thousand cuts. Or in comedy terms, punching down. It's not funny to me to see multiple characters call Lorna dumb in different ways. But who knows, maybe Leah will make sure all the characters get multiple chances to do "stupid" things and be called dumb throughout her run. Maybe a future issue will have Daken ruin the mission and get caught cause he's too stupid-horny to know a trap when he sees one. Laughs all the way down.

    I would feel quite differently if Marvel had spent the past few years delving into Lorna's potential, giving her plenty of opportunities, and ensuring everyone knows how great she is and what she has to offer. Unlike what Marvel's actually done, where they spent the past 5 years misusing her to promote other characters and throwing her into limbo when not doing that, avoiding any semblance of respect for how long she's existed in the comics or what she's done in that time.

    The example you gave with Daken isn't the same. There's a huge difference between "Oh he tried his power but it wasn't needed here after all, ha ha" and "She's written stupidly charging into a fight, gets her ass handed to her, and here's one of her teammates to ridicule her for it." Your example is humor by circumstance. His power typically helps and he expects it to do so here, it wasn't needed after all, funny turn of events. What's been done to Lorna is "humor" by making her the butt of the "joke."



    On a more positive note, I've been following this ranking list for Marvel Puzzle Quest since I started getting more into it (because they added Lorna).

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...s0/mobilebasic

    I'm pleased to see that in this list maker's opinion, Lorna is at the very top of the 4* characters. I agree with it, too. I use her for every mission except the easy ones that I want to get through quickly. She's sitting at level 209 for me. I did want her to be a 5* when it first came out and initially thought it was a problem that Havok was and she wasn't, but with enough playing I've changed my mind. Being at the top of the 4*s is much better. She's more accessible, easier to level, and her skill set is more impressive. Whereas it'll probably be 50 years before any of my current 5*s (Heimdall, Deadpool and Storm) can be maxed.
    Last edited by salarta; 01-13-2021 at 06:06 PM.
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  12. #57
    Hi, Sage. nandes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I don't think it's off base. It's obviously nowhere near the same scale of badness, but the basic issue remains the same, and it's the best example for making my point that came to mind. If you have a better example, please share.

    I don't find any of the things I've cited to be funny. I see them as little digs at a character regularly misused by Marvel, that only exacerbate the problem. Character death by a thousand cuts. Or in comedy terms, punching down. It's not funny to me to see multiple characters call Lorna dumb in different ways. But who knows, maybe Leah will make sure all the characters get multiple chances to do "stupid" things and be called dumb throughout her run. Maybe a future issue will have Daken ruin the mission and get caught cause he's too stupid-horny to know a trap when he sees one. Laughs all the way down.

    I would feel quite differently if Marvel had spent the past few years delving into Lorna's potential, giving her plenty of opportunities, and ensuring everyone knows how great she is and what she has to offer. Unlike what Marvel's actually done, where they spent the past 5 years misusing her to promote other characters and throwing her into limbo when not doing that, avoiding any semblance of respect for how long she's existed in the comics or what she's done in that time.

    The example you gave with Daken isn't the same. There's a huge difference between "Oh he tried his power but it wasn't needed here after all, ha ha" and "She's written stupidly charging into a fight, gets her ass handed to her, and here's one of her teammates to ridicule her for it." Your example is humor by circumstance. His power typically helps and he expects it to do so here, it wasn't needed after all, funny turn of events. What's been done to Lorna is "humor" by making her the butt of the "joke."
    That panel that you claim Leah specifically portrayed as Lorna "dumb" for heading into to battle is taken out of context. She was actually trying to stop Northstar from rushing into things


    I listed plenty of facets Lorna has shown in X-Factor. The book is not only funny - it also often veers into dark themes and Lorna is one of the characters that Leah has given the most attention to. Insisting on talking about one (out of context) panel as if it's the end-all of her characterization in the book or as if it's an attack on the character simply doesn't ring true if you consider the entire context.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Lorna's time during the Morrison/Austen era was the focus of this week's BoTA podcast

    https://www.comicsxf.com/2021/01/11/...-book-of-love/
    I have heard those guys a few times and yes their view of Austen colors their opinions. I disagree with their idea that Lorna should have gone through New X-Men 132 and came out sunshine and rainbows. Millions of memories of the dead of people she was sworn to protect were stuck repeating in her mind. Austen had said he planned to write Lorna like she was in the early 90s which is the definitive image some have of her and marry her off to Havok like some were hoping for, but that wasn't the way the story took things for him after reading New X-Men 132.

    On that topic Marvel put out in 2002 a reprint of Jim Steranko's X-Men 49-51, but remember he fled the title over creative differences so her parentage hadn't been undone yet. I suspect Morrison was influenced by this reprint hence his story. Austen had a choice to forget about it and pretend Lorna was just nuts, but he instead re-wrote his plans with her to craft them around what she went through in a story he didn't write. Well here was what he said for posterity and for those who never read it on that score.

    Question: I really liked your work on Uncanny X-Men, especially with what you did with Polaris. You turned her from a character that was always in the background who I hardly ever noticed into one of my favorite characters and you managed to give her character a nice edge. One thing I was wondering is how the decision to make Polaris Magneto’s daughter again came down? Was that Morrison or your idea? Because, I know the storyline had its roots in Morrison’s New X-Men 132 back in September 2002.

    Austen: I believe it was Grant’s. But the roots went much further back, though others can tell you specifically when and where, what issues, what the circumstances were, which page, what panels, what characters, the costumes they were wearing, who lettered it, and possibly even the type of printer it was printed on.

    There was a storyline done years ago where she was ‘revealed’ to be Magneto’s daughter, but then it was undone, or proven not to be true, or only happened in one of Scarlet Witch’s continuity-scrubbing bubbles, or something. Maybe in the Neal Adams Roy Thomas run. I researched it at the time, but I’ve since forgotten. I needed to memorize someone’s phone number, and that’s the only brain space I had available.

    Apparently Grant made a decision to go back to it, but I’m not sure whose actual idea it was: his, Marvel’s, or God’s acting through them both as a conduit—I assume his, because he was Grant Morrison, and he had the power, the power of Hoodoo—all I can tell you is that the germ of the idea wasn’t mine.

    I had intended to use Polaris in my run from the beginning, keep her much as she’d been when I’d read about her in X-Factor and other places, then eventually marry her off to Alex, happily ever after—at least until some other writer came along and made them related to Satan. It was a surprise to me when she appeared in Grant’s X-Men—crazy, muttering to herself, and wandering in the radioactive mud. We’d just had coffee the previous day, and she seemed fine. Just shows how you can miss the little signs.

    Once she’d appeared as Nutso Profundo I had to rewrite some of my scripts, and went with Lorna the edgier, more volatile and unpredictable Looney Tunes with a heart of gold. It made a certain amount of sense, and I agree with you, she became more interesting than she had been. CURSE YOU GRANT MORRISON AND YOUR GENIUS! He was always making me look bad for my lack of imagination. I think he did it on purpose.

    If Lorna had been on Genosha when it was destroyed, that kind of devastation likley would have changed her, deeply, although I’m sure she still could have had kids, a marriage, and sold Tupperware in her spare time if only I had let her. I decided not to, because I’m a dick, that way.

    So it wasn’t planned, it wasn’t actually my idea, but I ran with it and thought it was a good direction and an interesting one. And, tellingly, people both credit, and blame me for the change.

    If you liked it, I did it. If not, it’s Grant’s fault.

    See how easy that is?
    When it comes to the wedding I can see how some have issues with the love triangle and the over the top moment, but I liked it and Lorna was able to kick Havok's ass and knock out two teams of X-Men and a few Avengers without being mind controlled.

    But, outside of that the two things that worked by far in away the best in his run with Lorna was the focus like a laser on what she had been through and how it changed her. It was a much better role on the title then the mother hen who gets possessed every couple years to show how bad assed she could be if she was someone else. Her role on the team as a deeply scarred and cynical no non sense warrior worked.
    Last edited by jmc247; 01-13-2021 at 08:46 PM.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    That panel that you claim Leah specifically portrayed as Lorna "dumb" for heading into to battle is taken out of context. She was actually trying to stop Northstar from rushing into things


    I listed plenty of facets Lorna has shown in X-Factor. The book is not only funny - it also often veers into dark themes and Lorna is one of the characters that Leah has given the most attention to. Insisting on talking about one (out of context) panel as if it's the end-all of her characterization in the book or as if it's an attack on the character simply doesn't ring true if you consider the entire context.
    Thank you for that additional context. It shows things preceding the moment happened differently from what I thought, that she was trying to stop Northstar rather than rushing in herself. However, it raises another question: why is Rachel's quipping directed at Lorna, not Northstar or both of them?

    That's not a frivolous question. Framing matters. It's how people can look at two characters going through the same or similar events and remember one in a worse light than the other. I come from a background of video games, where I saw many Final Fantasy IV fans quick to look down on one character for circumstances beyond her control (Rosa contracting Desert Fever) while shrugging off same for another (Leviathan causing a shipwreck to take Rydia) all due to presentation. One was remembered as a "useless damsel in distress," the other an intriguing special character. Was Leah concerned Rachel saying it to Northstar would undermine him as a leader, but Lorna was a safe target? Did she think Northstar's act is more forgivable as someone learning the leader ropes, but Lorna should "know better" and therefore deserves mockery? These are questions that do not require Leah to have thought about and decided on these things deliberately. In writing, many things happen subconsciously and unintentionally. You learn a lot about yourself that way if you're looking.

    If Northstar actually was mocked for what he did in a similar way to Lorna, please share. I would like to see.

    As for the second paragraph, you're right that one panel isn't the end-all. I'm not talking about just one panel. I'm talking about multiple.




    I'm limited to three images. Otherwise I would be using more from X-Factor #4. Beyond that, I didn't address the "facets" you mentioned because I don't feel like getting into an argument at this moment about the problems with each of them. I know you see the examples you provided as good. I've described why they're otherwise before, and I'm sure I will do so again when there's a need for it.

    Attention is only good if the cause for attention is also good. Lorna, and X-Factor in general, would both be better off if Lorna had never been on the book in the first place.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress. Avatar by kahlart.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I think Lorna´s problem in part is because she´s seen as a silver age lady damssel in distress or as the princess heir of Magneto who writers don´t quite know how to write interacting with him, I really would like if we could avoid the old tropes of them not getting along or him being dissapointed she´s not "strong enough" or her hating him as Wanda and Pietro do because Lorna is a hero and he a villain/grey character at best or as this child who has yet to earn her place at the side of her father as has a lot of insecurities. I disagree with those takes because they ignore one of the most interesting era on their relationship before they were related, their time in Genosha. This time not only served to develop her powers but also their mutual understanding, Lorna got to know him not only as magneto, the mutant leader/enemy of the X-men but as a person and was ok in telling him when she didn´t agree with him and when to tell other people to give it a chance to what he was saying because it made sense.



    My favourite take on her os usually done by writers who know her character as a witty person, who cares about the people close to her, who has a temper but also can be fun showing it and also someone with her own losses and pain who still would like to live her life with a cause, happiness and great energy. When she´s written like this it allows her to be her own person and hold her own without the need to make her confrontational with other people and when she´s like this with her father it helps to contrast in a nice way with his usual serious personality, allowing him to remember he can be witty too and joke around with his children.



    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 01-13-2021 at 11:04 PM.
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo


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