Ororo Munroe: Storm/Hadari Yao Appreciation 2021

[The92Ghost]

You have to ignore specific years, because the timeline is always sliding. It's more about relativity. Priest said T'Challa was already into his 30's at the start of his run in the late 90's. In my head he was about 4 years older than her(so he was 16 when she was 12). He's 5 extra years older now from Coates run. So let's say she's now 29/30, he's more like 38/39.

Woah, I don't think they will go for a decade gap between Storm and T'Challa, but it is true that T'Challa older than Ororo in the Intergalactic Empire, she was matured as well, so I saw them more like they have several years difference in that story arc. Like Storm is around 35-36, while he is like you said 38-39.

But for the one in KiB BP, yeah they look like they have 5-10 years difference now... just now noticed.

[jwatson]

Woah, I don't think they will go for a decade gap between Storm and T'Challa, but it is true that T'Challa older than Ororo in the Intergalactic Empire, she was matured as well, so I saw them more like they have several years difference in that story arc. Like Storm is around 35-36, while he is like you said 38-39.

But for the one in KiB BP, yeah they look like they have 5-10 years difference now... just now noticed.

She wasn't matured because Black panther went through a worm hole and storm was still on earth. So only BP aged and maybe Manifold but not shur, storm and the others.

[butterflykyss]

Yeah, when I saw that I rolled my eyes and went lol. The absolute absurdity.

Right?? I'm like sir you cannot have it both ways lol. Since you don't like the xmen find something from the Avengers lore to make the point aspects of your story is formidable as you intend to convey to the reader.

Details would have been nice given the phoenix can blow up planets. Having anti planet ending threats is normal for Wakanda. In Priest they had a procedure for dealing with Galactus if he showed up. They don't expand on it, its just a 'thats crazy moment'.

If Coates made her a goddes in a X-men comic book than I wouldn't care. But he had to trash, rewrite Bast, and Wakandan history via a Native American analog to do it. That was out of line. Vita did the same thing in her Marauders issue. Changing history unnecessarily for a certain outcome.

Absolutely that would have been nice OR simply don't reference the Phoenix. It literally came out of nowhere. Has this entity (anti-panther phoenix) been referenced before in Black Panther?

To your next point it comes across as a double standard that I was just mentioning. It is fine to refer to elements of xmen lore even when it's nonsensical and doesn't align to any established canon so long as it makes Wakanda look cool. The anti-phoenix Panther does exactly what you've mentioned Coates did, which was change an aspect of Wakanda lore. In the case of Coates, what specifically did Coates change? From what I understood he was adding more meat to a pantheon that didn't exist previously. So its not really the same where Coates changed history because said history wasn't established. Also, wasn't Bast changed from male to female within the BP lore? One could argue Coates should not have included Storm and the xmen lore within the BP one but that is a moot point. He did it. What he did with those elements however was canonically sound. Im not sure Thorne representation of Wakanda is the same.

[skyvolt2000]

hmmm so from what I'm gathering, in broad strokes, the breakdown mainly boils down to the BP/Marvel creative branch and the X-Men creative branch not being on the same page and enabling petty digs at the other camp. which I can see happening, especially from what I hear about the lengths Marvel went to undercut the X-Men at certain points in their history.

Understand you are dealing with two different offices. Which is made WORST when you toss in film rights and all that.
At the time you had a BRICK wall called Fox and various folks not wanting black folks as leads in movies-making any chance of that couple being on screen MOOT.

I think Coates handled it fine. if big names like catwoman and batman can work surely tchalla and ororo can.

Catwoman has HOW MANY SOLO ISSUES? You have a fully developed character that never took a backseat to anyone not even Batman.

Lois Lane same thing. Along with she's WITH Clark/Superman in everything. They were forever linked.

Mera-same thing. Except for the 90s when Aquaman was bed hopping and being moody.

It does not work between 2 franchises because one will over run the other.

No one wants X-Men drama in Wakanda-we saw what happened the last time.

No one wants Wakanda drama in X-Men.

I will put it like this- X-Men fans are you willing to have an X-Men film held hostage by Wakanda? Your first MCU X-Men film be Storm in Wakanda discovering how per powers? Black Panther forming X-Men academy and seeking all the mutants on the planet? Instead of Xavier. So your first X-Men team could be Storm, Prodigy, Synch, Sunspot, Gateway and Maggot?

Don't think they wouldn't do that.

[butterflykyss]

Catwoman, from her initial conception, was always in Batman's wheelhouse. She was literally created for him[as a sexy antagonist, part of his rogue's gallery, in Batman #1 no less]. And they STILL didn't get married.

Trying to pair Storm and BP is more akin to trying to pair Wonder Woman with Batman. Fun for an Elseworld, but it would never work in the main continuity/for the long haul.

all true but the initial point is big characters can date and it work. Coates demonstrated that. his inclusion of Ororo in the BP books didn't impede on what the xoffices was doing with her. them beung a couple doesn't impede on the stories in the xbooks. the idea that they can't work I believe is a manufacturered one.

[butterflykyss]

Understand you are dealing with two different offices. Which is made WORST when you toss in film rights and all that.
At the time you had a BRICK wall called Fox and various folks not wanting black folks as leads in movies-making any chance of that couple being on screen MOOT.




Catwoman has HOW MANY SOLO ISSUES? You have a fully developed character that never took a backseat to anyone not even Batman.

Lois Lane same thing. Along with she's WITH Clark/Superman in everything. They were forever linked.

Mera-same thing. Except for the 90s when Aquaman was bed hopping and being moody.

It does not work between 2 franchises because one will over run the other.

No one wants X-Men drama in Wakanda-we saw what happened the last time.

No one wants Wakanda drama in X-Men.

I will put it like this- X-Men fans are you willing to have an X-Men film held hostage by Wakanda? Your first MCU X-Men film be Storm in Wakanda discovering how per powers? Black Panther forming X-Men academy and seeking all the mutants on the planet? Instead of Xavier. So your first X-Men team could be Storm, Prodigy, Synch, Sunspot, Gateway and Maggot?

Don't think they wouldn't do that.

I understand marvel is a shared universe and seeing heroes interact isn't a bad so long as these interactions can be respectful to all parties involved. at least that is my take.

[jwatson]

Understand you are dealing with two different offices. Which is made WORST when you toss in film rights and all that.
At the time you had a BRICK wall called Fox and various folks not wanting black folks as leads in movies-making any chance of that couple being on screen MOOT.




Catwoman has HOW MANY SOLO ISSUES? You have a fully developed character that never took a backseat to anyone not even Batman.

Lois Lane same thing. Along with she's WITH Clark/Superman in everything. They were forever linked.

Mera-same thing. Except for the 90s when Aquaman was bed hopping and being moody.

It does not work between 2 franchises because one will over run the other.

No one wants X-Men drama in Wakanda-we saw what happened the last time.

No one wants Wakanda drama in X-Men.

I will put it like this- X-Men fans are you willing to have an X-Men film held hostage by Wakanda? Your first MCU X-Men film be Storm in Wakanda discovering how per powers? Black Panther forming X-Men academy and seeking all the mutants on the planet? Instead of Xavier. So your first X-Men team could be Storm, Prodigy, Synch, Sunspot, Gateway and Maggot?

Don't think they wouldn't do that.

Not only that honestly on a more simple note i don't want no 40 year old storm at the start to match Tchalla age in the MCU. I can start with that.

[butterflykyss]

Not only that honestly on a more simple note i don't want no 40 year old storm at the start to match Tchalla age in the MCU. I can start with that.

yea I wouldn't want that either. not trying to be an age-aphobe but would prefer them showing her younger but I understand this will be unlikely considering the other heroes age.

[yogaflame]

Storm's IP is by far more centered on X-Men/mutants, as part of and leader of a team. BP's IP is by far more centered on Wakanda, where he is prince/king. Fundamentally their IP's are independent. Putting them together will only satisfy a narrow bandwidth of their respective customer base/fans. It's a diminished return. BP already made a billion+ without Storm. Storm became a household name without BP. None of their joint ventures have exceeded their independent ventures. Can good stories starring both of them be made? Of course. But a good story can come from anywhere. BP fans don't like Storm's power dwarfing him. Storm fans don't like her being diminished for his glory. McDuffie was the only one to basically balance them, but for what? An obscure few issues run of FF no one cares about?

Black love is great and should be celebrated; but it should be celebrated honorably and with focused intention, not as an afterthought, or a sales gimmick. T'Challa and Ororo both deserve better. Readers deserve better.

[jwatson]

Storm's IP is by far more centered on X-Men/mutants, as part of and leader of a team. BP's IP is by far more centered on Wakanda, where he is prince/king. Fundamentally their IP's are independent. Putting them together will only satisfy a narrow bandwidth of their respective customer base/fans. It's a diminished return. BP already made a billion+ without Storm. Storm became a household name without BP. None of their joint ventures have exceeded their independent ventures. Can good stories starring both of them be made? Of course. But a good story can come from anywhere. BP fans don't like Storm's power dwarfing him. Storm fans don't like her being diminished for his glory. McDuffie was the only one to basically balance them, but for what? An obscure few issues run of FF no one cares about?

Black love is great and should be celebrated; but it should be celebrated honorably and with focused intention, not as an afterthought, or a sales gimmick. T'Challa and Ororo both deserve better. Readers deserve better.

And the church says amen. Why should black love be defined as any less than white love. We court, we date, we hang out for a long time before marriage. I mean come on, if Reed didn't see sue in 20 years real time as a romantic interest and then they got married after less than a year i just can't imagine white people being like "yaaaaaaaaaaaaaassss white love!"

[butterflykyss]

Storm's IP is by far more centered on X-Men/mutants, as part of and leader of a team. BP's IP is by far more centered on Wakanda, where he is prince/king. Fundamentally their IP's are independent. Putting them together will only satisfy a narrow bandwidth of their respective customer base/fans. It's a diminished return. BP already made a billion+ without Storm. Storm became a household name without BP. None of their joint ventures have exceeded their independent ventures. Can good stories starring both of them be made? Of course. But a good story can come from anywhere. BP fans don't like Storm's power dwarfing him. Storm fans don't like her being diminished for his glory. McDuffie was the only one to basically balance them, but for what? An obscure few issues run of FF no one cares about?

Black love is great and should be celebrated; but it should be celebrated honorably and with focused intention, not as an afterthought, or a sales gimmick. T'Challa and Ororo both deserve better. Readers deserve better.

I think you make valid points but you can't assume all fans look at their relationship together as a negative. there are many who in fact love the pairing. speaking specifically for storm fans, I see some blame her being a part of the black panther as inhibiting to her development but her development was lacking throughout the franchise under lobdell, under carey, under Aaron, under bendis, under fraction, under Guggenheim and others writers who controlled the flagship titles because they didn't want to. when Jean, Scott, Logan, kitty, rogue, Emma and magneto were driving the xmen stories it wasnt because of black Panther. this burden resides with the xoffices. when writers have tried to do better for them (hudlin and coates) some fans didn't appreciate it.

in regards to black love being shown honorable, how could you read coates' run and not conclude it was shown as as such. tchalla fought an entire galactic empire to get back to storm. if that is not honor I'm not sure what is.

[The92Ghost]

Understand you are dealing with two different offices. Which is made WORST when you toss in film rights and all that.
At the time you had a BRICK wall called Fox and various folks not wanting black folks as leads in movies-making any chance of that couple being on screen MOOT.




Catwoman has HOW MANY SOLO ISSUES? You have a fully developed character that never took a backseat to anyone not even Batman.

Lois Lane same thing. Along with she's WITH Clark/Superman in everything. They were forever linked.

Mera-same thing. Except for the 90s when Aquaman was bed hopping and being moody.

It does not work between 2 franchises because one will over run the other.

No one wants X-Men drama in Wakanda-we saw what happened the last time.

No one wants Wakanda drama in X-Men.

I will put it like this- X-Men fans are you willing to have an X-Men film held hostage by Wakanda? Your first MCU X-Men film be Storm in Wakanda discovering how per powers? Black Panther forming X-Men academy and seeking all the mutants on the planet? Instead of Xavier. So your first X-Men team could be Storm, Prodigy, Synch, Sunspot, Gateway and Maggot?

Don't think they wouldn't do that.

I do not think that they will do that, yes they can do that but no they will not. Kevin Faggie won't allow it. He stated multiple times that he liked the 90's X-Men. I just hope we will not get too much 90's interference and that he would concentrate on the new on-going era with Hickman that offers a lot more diversity.

[butterflykyss]

I do not think that they will do that, yes they can do that but no they will not. Kevin Faggie won't allow it. He stated multiple times that he liked the 90's X-Men. I just hope we will not get too much 90's interference and that he would concentrate on the new on-going era with Hickman that offers a lot more diversity.

I could get behind 90s storm but I might prefer goddess storm!! lol

[jwatson]

I think you make valid points but you can't assume all fans look at their relationship together as a negative. there are many who in fact love the pairing. speaking specifically for storm fans, I see some blame her being a part of the black panther as inhibiting to her development but her development was lacking throughout the franchise under lobdell, under carey, under Aaron, under bendis, under fraction, under Guggenheim and others writers who controlled the flagship titles because they didn't want to. when Jean, Scott, Logan, kitty, rogue, Emma and magneto were driving the xmen stories it wasnt because of black Panther. this burden resides with the xoffices. when writers have tried to do better for them (hudlin and coates) some fans didn't appreciate it.

in regards to black love being shown honorable, how could you read coates' run and not conclude it was shown as as such. tchalla fought an entire galactic empire to get back to storm. if that is not honor I'm not sure what is.

The only problem i honestly have with you blaming the x-office solely is the fact that hudlin himself said he offered a deal to BET to get Storm over to the BP side of things. That is why she was pulled and we honestly don't know how long that contract was in effect for but i feel like basically your saying three other writers are flat out lying (or thats what it feels like) when they say there was a deal in place where they couldn't just use Storm the way they wanted to. She was being used just fine before the initial pull to BP and no one can deny her trajectory of becoming irrelevant in the x-books didn't coincide with that. And we can't say what other BP writers said to the x-team at the time considering they were in a position of very little power at the time with the x-film rights being elsewhere.

[jwatson]

The only problem i honestly have with you blaming the x-office solely is the fact that hudlin himself said he offered a deal to BET to get Storm over to the BP side of things. That is why she was pulled and we honestly don't know how long that contract was in effect for but i feel like basically your saying three other writers are flat out lying (or thats what it feels like) when they say there was a deal in place where they couldn't just use Storm the way they wanted to. She was being used just fine before the initial pull to BP and no one can deny her trajectory of becoming irrelevant in the x-books didn't coincide with that. And we can't say what other BP writers said to the x-team at the time considering they were in a position of very little power at the time with the x-film rights being elsewhere.

And i just wanted to add if it was about the x-team just not wanting to use storm, why did they at least have the respect to not try to replace her. usually in a situation like that they would have brought in an alternate or even a white character with powers close to hers or another black character but they didn't. To me that says they felt storm could not be replaced.