Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Albert1981]

Magik's mutant ability is teleportation. The magic came through her tutelage by Belasco, AU!Storm, and eventually Strange.

Wanda is a complicated case, since whether her magic is tied to her mutant power has varied from writer to writer. But she wasn't any good at it until she started learning under Agatha.

John may have been descended from a long line of sorcerers with a predilection for ceremonial magic and insanely bad luck, but there has never been any indication that his powers came from that heritage. In fact, given that his creators come from an old-school hermetic tradition, magic in his book is almost always something you learn, not what you are.

Steven isn't even the first Marvel magician trained in Tibet... that honor goes to Anthony Ludgate, aka Doctor Druid (Eventually. It's a strange story ).



The only time the "price" of magic gets mentioned is when Strange has to pay it. Seriously.

Thanks for the explanation! I didn't mention Shaman because I figured he accessed his powers by communicating with the "spirits of his ancestors" like practically all Native American/Canadian superheroes do. I didn't know Constantine got his powers mostly from learning. I had always assumed it was "genetic". I get Magik's powers, but Wanda's are STILL really vague to me. It's too bad that Stephen has to pay the "price of magic" when NO OTHER magical characters in the Marvel Universe have to. I think it would be funny if members of Marvel's magic community had more to fear from what was contained in their own refrigerators than from malevolent demons from other dimensions.

[Eto]

I've been away for a while.
I've finally had the time to read some more Dr. Strange ('74 series) issues.

#41
Is this the first time Stephen meets Mistress Death?
Wait what so did Stephen die and then Death sends him back to Earth?
Why would Death do that? Yeah she claims she can be patient, but still eeh didn't convince me.


#42
"The dragon is a creation of pure energy"
two words:
hory shiiiiiiet.
BUT also, how lol.


#43
Finally we know who kidnapped Wong and where Clea's been up to as well.


#45
Can someone give me more insight into this "pentagon" they formed. Like do al users have to be sorcerers or is one sorcerer enough?

[DigiCom]

Wanda's magic was tied to chaos magic. Her mutant abilities just worked in tandem with that. Traditional magic was used to control the chaos.

"Chaos magic" wasn't even MENTIONED in connection with Wanda until 1998, almost 35 years after her creation. And other than a handful of stories, wasn't really a thing until Wandavision. In her last ongoing, she uses some sort of chromatic-based witchcraft, and her mutation is barely mentioned.

Thanks for the explanation! I didn't mention Shaman because I figured he accessed his powers by communicating with the "spirits of his ancestors" like practically all Native American/Canadian superheroes do. I didn't know Constantine got his powers mostly from learning. I had always assumed it was "genetic". I get Magik's powers, but Wanda's are STILL really vague to me. It's too bad that Stephen has to pay the "price of magic" when NO OTHER magical characters in the Marvel Universe have to. I think it would be funny if members of Marvel's magic community had more to fear from what was contained in their own refrigerators than from malevolent demons from other dimensions.

Shaman is something of an unusual case. When he was first created, all of his powers were tied to his satchel, making him essentially a Native American version of Felix the Cat. Eventually, the writers got bored with it and had him undergo a sort of vision quest where he was trained by his grandfather's spirit.

(And then there was the whole thing with the Talisman, which is a completely DIFFERENT magical McGuffin).

Regarding Constantine, I don't know whether it's still canon, but back in the Vertigo days, he got mixed up with magic in the late '60s. It was all relatively grounded stuff, tho... a lot of curses and rituals. Very Aleister Crowley. John was never one for the flashy stuff.

[Reviresco]

I've been away for a while.
I've finally had the time to read some more Dr. Strange ('74 series) issues.

#41
Is this the first time Stephen meets Mistress Death?
Wait what so did Stephen die and then Death sends him back to Earth?
Why would Death do that? Yeah she claims she can be patient, but still eeh didn't convince me.


#42
"The dragon is a creation of pure energy"
two words:
hory shiiiiiiet.
BUT also, how lol.


#43
Finally we know who kidnapped Wong and where Clea's been up to as well.


#45
Can someone give me more insight into this "pentagon" they formed. Like do al users have to be sorcerers or is one sorcerer enough?

I wish I was as far in my reading as you.

I imagine the pentagram would be more powerful with sorcerers. Id forgotten these were written by Chris Claremont.

[GenericUsername]

"Chaos magic" wasn't even MENTIONED in connection with Wanda until 1998, almost 35 years after her creation. And other than a handful of stories, wasn't really a thing until Wandavision. In her last ongoing, she uses some sort of chromatic-based witchcraft, and her mutation is barely mentioned.

Of course it wasn't but Chthon was brought up well before that in the 70s. Busiek just gave it a name. It's still retroactively true for the character as much as being blessed by Chthon at birth was back in the 70s. Her mutation isn't mentioned because it was retconned out 7 years ago.

[DigiCom]

Of course it wasn't but Chthon was brought up well before that in the 70s. Busiek just gave it a name. It's still retroactively true for the character as much as being blessed by Chthon at birth was back in the 70s. Her mutation isn't mentioned because it was retconned out 7 years ago.

My point is that the causal link between her magic & her hex powers have varied drastically over the years. Saying that her magical powers come from her mutation is difficult to support, textually.

[GenericUsername]

My point is that the causal link between her magic & her hex powers have varied drastically over the years. Saying that her magical powers come from her mutation is difficult to support, textually.

Absolutely agreed. At best it worked with her magic, but wasn't completely the source of it. Definitely wasn't the source of her stronger abilities that would come along after the Chthon link.

[Albert1981]

"Chaos magic" wasn't even MENTIONED in connection with Wanda until 1998, almost 35 years after her creation. And other than a handful of stories, wasn't really a thing until Wandavision. In her last ongoing, she uses some sort of chromatic-based witchcraft, and her mutation is barely mentioned.



Shaman is something of an unusual case. When he was first created, all of his powers were tied to his satchel, making him essentially a Native American version of Felix the Cat. Eventually, the writers got bored with it and had him undergo a sort of vision quest where he was trained by his grandfather's spirit.

(And then there was the whole thing with the Talisman, which is a completely DIFFERENT magical McGuffin).

Regarding Constantine, I don't know whether it's still canon, but back in the Vertigo days, he got mixed up with magic in the late '60s. It was all relatively grounded stuff, tho... a lot of curses and rituals. Very Aleister Crowley. John was never one for the flashy stuff.

Thanks for the explanation about Shaman. I didn't know he was an "artifact guy" before reading your description of him. Yeah, I like how Constantine is an "occult detective". Makes him sort of noble and cynical dude. I like those kinds of personalities. He definitely fits in horror stories. What really shocks me is that Marvel Studios is making Stephen into a "horror" character. I never found his stories to be particularly scary. I'm curious to see how this plays out.

[Reviresco]

Well, I play in the classical sense. So it takes me a LONG time and a great deal of frustration to learn theory, but also to play the pieces and studies I'm required to learn right. And I'm not including learning scales and arpeggios and getting a handle on ear training. So yes, musicians can go pro learning purely by ear and master all sorts of blues and country licks. But I'm talking about learning stuff that's almost impossible to be learned on one's own. That's how I see magic in MY opinion. Harry Potter and Ged had to go to magic school to learn and I prefer that approach of magical training. Strange thought magic was FAKE NEWS for SO LONG in his debut movie. Only when he saw hands growing on his hands, did he start thinking that that bald broad might be on to something. What's the point of schools, if we can all be self-taught? (I can't believe I'm actually defending schools, because I actually HATED going to them as a kid, but here we are).

Because schools are far more efficient both in singular and multiple. A school sets a standard of education that applies to everyone, not just people with the privilege or interest to learn. It is easier to learn in school and from someone who should be knowledgeable about the subject. Being self taught means a lot of trial and error, learning bad habits or just wrong things. Hence my assertion that being self taught means MORE studying and practicing than being taught by a mentor.

What's in red may be your opinion, but what actually happens in the comics and movies is up to the creators / editors. And clearly, from the comics and movies and the link you posted, your opinion is not how things work at Marvel.

And that's not entirely correct in the Doctor Strange movie. If he thought it was fake news, why would spend all that time and effort to hunt down the Ancient One?

Maybe that chick I referred to hasn't written anything of importance, I still think she has some solid ideas on how to write fantasy fiction (in MY opinion). Sure books, comic books, card games, tabletop games, video games, cartoons, movies and television are different mediums. But since we're talking about MAGIC here, I don't think it's unreasonable to have ideas flow between them. It's already happening. I heard the next Final Fantasy game will be borrowing elements from television shows like the Witcher and Game of Thrones. And just because folks haven't had their works published themselves, doesn't mean what they write doesn't have merit. That would be like saying art critics can't criticize painters and sculptors because they don't know how to paint and sculpt themselves!

That's a weak analogy. Being an art critic doesn't mean you don't know how to paint or sculpt. Real art critics have credentials. Rando person on the internet offering their opinion / advice does not.

It's unreasonable, in my opinion, to expect a work like Marvel comics that has multiple authors and collaborators and restrictions over 60 years to confirm to the same writing techniques as a work that has a single author with practically no restrictions. Those 'rules of magic' you posted can simply NOT be enforced over 60 plus years and every comic Marvel has released in that time period. It is simply impossible. A comic writer can set up a framework that works for him, but any other writer can come along and completely trash or ignore what he's done. And yes, different mediums require different frameworks, to do different things. Books have so much more room to develop and explore, whereas video mediums aren't concerned so much about the framework, but how it's going to look and move things along.

I don't mind self-learning at all. It's even harder to learn that way in my opinion. And I have no problem with Wanda learning from that big-ass book of hers. I would have preferred it if WandaVision had Agatha "hate-teaching" Wanda a little bit more, but I'm fine with how things went down.

If that's the case, perhaps you shouldn't have said you didn't like it and agreed with others who thought it was cheap and lazy.

You can't be serious thinking that I'm sexist for saying that I wasn't thrilled that Sylvie learned her magic on her own off-screen? You can't be! Hiddleston's Loki WAS taught by his mother, Frigga. I understand why you think he wasn't, but there was a deleted scene from the Dark World that sort of explained how Frigga shared her magic with her adopted son:

I never said Hiddleston's Loki was NOT taught magic by his mother Frigga, so I don't think you understand what I'm saying or thinking. I don't need some youtuber or a deleted scene to gather that information because it was outright stated and shown in one of the Loki episodes.

Nor did I say YOU were sexist, I said your negative critique of Sylvie Loki being self taught was sexist, when you give Hiddleston's male Loki a pass for being able to use ENCHANTMENT magic with zero teaching, studying, or learning. Watch the episode. Hiddleston Loki tells Sylvie Loki he does NOT know how to do ENCHANTMENT magic.

FYI, depending on the context, some people consider "chick" a derogatory sexist term.

My preference is if men AND women are taught magic by the experts in that field. You can build interesting relationships that way, I feel. I liked Loki's dynamic with his mother. The MCU is just full of characters with "daddy issues" (this is quite prevalent in fiction in general too). I like it that Loki and Thor have an interesting relationship with their mom. I wish Marvel Studios would have explored a little bit more of Loki's relationship with Frigga in his own show. The romantic stuff in the Marvel movies and shows often feel REALLY shoehorned in for me to take too seriously. I'm REALLY enjoying the Loki series as a whole, and I'm grateful they're explaining time travel/alternate realities in a detailed AND entertaining way. But the romance between the main characters feels REALLY awkward to me (and I like Hiddleston and Di Martino)!

It's meant to be awkward, since they are different versions of themselves. It can be interpreted as Loki learning to love himself, though some interpret as just another example of his narcissism.

[Reviresco]

Found some adorable fan art by Instagram artist @reytherandomartist. Silly notions like 'the cost of magic' will come and go, but the love between a (sorcerer) dude and his (ghost) dog lasts forever.

Attachment 111355

That is adorable!

And another rabbit hole of image search for me to explore. ;p

[Reviresco]

Magik's mutant ability is teleportation. The magic came through her tutelage by Belasco, AU!Storm, and eventually Strange.

Wanda is a complicated case, since whether her magic is tied to her mutant power has varied from writer to writer. But she wasn't any good at it until she started learning under Agatha.



Steven isn't even the first Marvel magician trained in Tibet... that honor goes to Anthony Ludgate, aka Doctor Druid (Eventually. It's a strange story ).



The only time the "price" of magic gets mentioned is when Strange has to pay it. Seriously.

Sad, but true, regarding the 'price.'

And lets not forget Baron Mordo went to Tibet before Strange. Oh, and didn't Dr Doom go to Tibet? Not sure where that falls chronologically or publication wise. And Wong in the movies.

Oh, for the days of Wanda's Probability Hex. LOL!

[DigiCom]

Thanks for the explanation about Shaman. I didn't know he was an "artifact guy" before reading your description of him. Yeah, I like how Constantine is an "occult detective". Makes him sort of noble and cynical dude. I like those kinds of personalities. He definitely fits in horror stories. What really shocks me is that Marvel Studios is making Stephen into a "horror" character. I never found his stories to be particularly scary. I'm curious to see how this plays out.

John is more cynical than noble, but yeah. Occult detectives have been around a very long time, at least since the mid-19th century (but you can actually make a case for one showing up in the Bible). In comics, they've been around since the very beginning: Siegel & Shuster created a character called Doctor Occult in 1935 (three years before Supes!).

The earliest Doctor Strange stories also fit that mold. It didn't really become action fantasy until Ditko changed up his art style and made him look like Ronald Coleman/Vincent Price. Since then he's gone back & forth.

[DigiCom]

Sad, but true, regarding the 'price.'

And lets not forget Baron Mordo went to Tibet before Strange. Oh, and didn't Dr Doom go to Tibet? Not sure where that falls chronologically or publication wise. And Wong in the movies.

Oh, for the days of Wanda's Probability Hex. LOL!

The idea of mystic enclaves in Tibet is an old & established trope. The book Lost Horizon (written in 1933, filmed in 1937) is probably the best-known version. There isn't a huge gulf between Shangri-La (created in said book) and Kamar-Taj.

[Reviresco]

I'm mostly talking about the movies and the shows. I WILL be getting into Strange in the comic books in the autumn when his new book comes out. I'm not really rigid about the "rules" of magic in the live-action stuff. I prefer as much consistency as possible, but nothing will ever be perfect so I'm cool if some things aren't explained. I actually don't mind it if the rules are even a little bit "flexible". I also have no problems with deus ex machinas if they're EARNED. Storytellers often need deus ex machinas and I fully understand that. I just don't want them to be done cheaply.

Deus ex machina is by definition NOT earned. It's an a$$ pull that comes from nowhere. If a writer needs to use deus ex machina, he isn't doing the work.

I'm not sure a book about Doctor Strange's death and the investigation into that will be the best example of the character, but hopefully it will do the character justice ... and not be all about Black Cat.

I do think it's funny that the "price" of learning magic got a whole LOT cheaper in Marvel Comics recently:

https://screenrant.com/doctor-strang...a-learn-magic/

That article is nothing but holy jumping to conclusions, Batman!!! Haven't read Reptil, but if that writer actually had someone getting their spells from the internet, that only illustrates my point regarding the futility of these single author rules of magic advice.

Thanks for the explanation about Shaman. I didn't know he was an "artifact guy" before reading your description of him. Yeah, I like how Constantine is an "occult detective". Makes him sort of noble and cynical dude. I like those kinds of personalities. He definitely fits in horror stories. What really shocks me is that Marvel Studios is making Stephen into a "horror" character. I never found his stories to be particularly scary. I'm curious to see how this plays out.

What Doctor Strange stories have you read? Even in the movie Doctor Strange is dealing with creepy death cults and the supernatural threat of otherworldly Dormammu. That finger hands thing was beyond creepy. In the comics, Doctor Strange firmly has a foot in the supernatural and Lovecraftian horror. That said, the MCU is not going to go full on, wet your pants horror movie. Doesn't really fit their universe / style. I'm more curious about how they are going to water down Blade.

[Reviresco]

The idea of mystic enclaves in Tibet is an old & established trope. The book Lost Horizon (written in 1933, filmed in 1937) is probably the best-known version. There isn't a huge gulf between Shangri-La (created in said book) and Kamar-Taj.

Sure, it's a standard of the pulps. I wonder where it came from? What inspired Lost Horizon? Was it relic of the Victorian occultism?