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  1. #1186
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    Interesting interpretation and I am with you (thinking Batman style single) up to the mind wipe you refer to. Sorry my reading must have lapsed but I don't remember when that happened? can you fill me and us in?
    This happened in the 2019 'Herald Supreme" story in Doctor Strange #17. by Barry Kitson and Mark Waid, After inadvertantly destroying the entire universe (except for Hell), Strange made a deal with Mephisto to give up the thing that was most important to him. He gave up his relationship with Clea, by wiping away her memories of him. He even says "I love you," to her while he's doing it. So nice. She is left not knowing who he is, and he goes off to brood about how he has to walk his lonely Sorcerer Supreme path alone.

    I'm sure the writers meant for readers to feel sorry for poor lonely Strange and not think about the fact that he erased Clea's memories and what that means for her.



    I'm actually kind of hoping she shows up for his funeral in the Death of Doctor Strange, just to see if he only wiped out her memories, or if he wiped her out of everybody else's memories at the same time. It would be SO awkward if she showed up and everybody was all sad on her behalf but she didn't know what the heck they were all talking about.

    EDIT TO ADD: I can think of many ways that Marvel could undo this situation, including one super easy fix that would leave Clea's memories entirely intact.
    Last edited by Clea; 09-15-2021 at 11:52 AM.
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  2. #1187
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I thought that was the direction they were going to go in the movie back when they were still in pre production. When Tilda Swinton was first announced to be in the movie I thought she was going to be either Clea, Agatha or one of the abstract beings from the MU. Would have made more sense to have Clea mentor Strange if they were reluctant to include the Ancient One in the movie.
    I think that the MCU writers wanted to stick as close as they could to Strange's origin story in the comics so they kept the role of The Ancient One but just changed that character to a Celtic woman. Swapping the Ancient One for Clea (an alien) might have been a good way to nullify a lot of the cringe-worthy Orientalist baggage from Strange's origin story. I do think that the MCU folks did their best and didn't mean to cause any offense by recasting The Ancient One as a Celtic woman. They definitely gave MCU Wong more agency and dignity than he had in 99% of the comics.
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  3. #1188
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Apparently Disney has "backed off" on the Multiverse of Madness being the MCU's first "horror film":

    https://screenrant.com/marvel-horror...ce-real-smart/

    You know, the horror genre IS extremely popular these days. It seems that there are dozens of shows and movies about post-apocalyptic horror stories at the moment. My brother HATES "franchise" shows and films, but he religiously watches the "Walking Dead". So, I think Marvel is making a mistake by not embracing horror more enthusiastically. Look at how well Shang-Chi has done because Disney KNOWS there is a huge market for martial arts films amongst the general public. As people on this thread know, I NEVER considered Stephen Strange to be a "horror" character. Not even for a moment. And I don't watch horror movies very often. The last one I saw was the science fiction horror film LIFE. But I'm REALLY curious to see how they can transition Stephen into a horror character. Because in the movies thus far, he ain't that. I'm more interested in Strange 2 as a horror film as opposed to the multiversal/time travel stuff. I have a feeling Derrickson wasn't too keen on those things either and wanted more HORROR. And surprisingly, so do I.

  4. #1189
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Apparently Disney has "backed off" on the Multiverse of Madness being the MCU's first "horror film":

    https://screenrant.com/marvel-horror...ce-real-smart/

    You know, the horror genre IS extremely popular these days. It seems that there are dozens of shows and movies about post-apocalyptic horror stories at the moment. My brother HATES "franchise" shows and films, but he religiously watches the "Walking Dead". So, I think Marvel is making a mistake by not embracing horror more enthusiastically. Look at how well Shang-Chi has done because Disney KNOWS there is a huge market for martial arts films amongst the general public. As people on this thread know, I NEVER considered Stephen Strange to be a "horror" character. Not even for a moment. And I don't watch horror movies very often. The last one I saw was the science fiction horror film LIFE. But I'm REALLY curious to see how they can transition Stephen into a horror character. Because in the movies thus far, he ain't that. I'm more interested in Strange 2 as a horror film as opposed to the multiversal/time travel stuff. I have a feeling Derrickson wasn't too keen on those things either and wanted more HORROR. And surprisingly, so do I.
    Strange is a good character for horror stories but he isn't exclusively a horror character. I would have liked to have seen the film that Derrickson was originally planning to do. He's a good director and he has an very good understanding of Strange's comics history. I'd seen speculation that Nightmare and/or Shuma Gorath were going to be the antagonist(s) in his script. I suspect that it would have been a true Doctor Strange story, and not just another MCU blockbuster event co-starring a bunch of other Marvel characters. We'll likely never know what Derrickson had planned. *shrugs* Kevin Feige has been very shrewd about the choices he's made to keep the MCU franchise successful and Marvel fans happy and eager for more. I assume that MoM will at least be entertaining and visually dazzling. I like multiverse/time travel stories when they're well told. I say that with the caveat that I personally find 99% of the MCU films to be fun but completely interchangeable and forgettable.
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  5. #1190
    BANNED Xheight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    This happened in the 2019 'Herald Supreme" story in Doctor Strange #17. by Barry Kitson and Mark Waid, After inadvertantly destroying the entire universe (except for Hell), Strange made a deal with Mephisto to give up the thing that was most important to him. He gave up his relationship with Clea, by wiping away her memories of him. He even says "I love you," to her while he's doing it. So nice. She is left not knowing who he is, and he goes off to brood about how he has to walk his lonely Sorcerer Supreme path alone.

    I'm sure the writers meant for readers to feel sorry for poor lonely Strange and not think about the fact that he erased Clea's memories and what that means for her.


    I'm actually kind of hoping she shows up for his funeral in the Death of Doctor Strange, just to see if he only wiped out her memories, or if he wiped her out of everybody else's memories at the same time. It would be SO awkward if she showed up and everybody was all sad on her behalf but she didn't know what the heck they were all talking about.

    EDIT TO ADD: I can think of many ways that Marvel could undo this situation, including one super easy fix that would leave Clea's memories entirely intact.
    Thanks for filling me in and the panels, I get my issues via paper subscription and that has been a mess over the Waid run into the Covid deliveries.

  6. #1191
    BANNED Xheight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Apparently Disney has "backed off" on the Multiverse of Madness being the MCU's first "horror film":

    https://screenrant.com/marvel-horror...ce-real-smart/

    You know, the horror genre IS extremely popular these days. It seems that there are dozens of shows and movies about post-apocalyptic horror stories at the moment. My brother HATES "franchise" shows and films, but he religiously watches the "Walking Dead". So, I think Marvel is making a mistake by not embracing horror more enthusiastically. Look at how well Shang-Chi has done because Disney KNOWS there is a huge market for martial arts films amongst the general public. As people on this thread know, I NEVER considered Stephen Strange to be a "horror" character. Not even for a moment. And I don't watch horror movies very often. The last one I saw was the science fiction horror film LIFE. But I'm REALLY curious to see how they can transition Stephen into a horror character. Because in the movies thus far, he ain't that. I'm more interested in Strange 2 as a horror film as opposed to the multiversal/time travel stuff. I have a feeling Derrickson wasn't too keen on those things either and wanted more HORROR. And surprisingly, so do I.
    Here though is a for instance - Star Trek vs. Space:1999 The first epitomizes the genre to this day the later not so much but arguing here Space:1999 was distopian horror of Space Travel and some have argued it was Horror as Scifi. Just sayin

  7. #1192
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    Thanks for filling me in and the panels, I get my issues via paper subscription and that has been a mess over the Waid run into the Covid deliveries.
    Oh man. I'm sorry your comics delivery sub got so messed up by COVID. I hope you're able to get the whole Waid run at some point. I liked it overall, the unfortunate incident with Clea notwithstanding.
    Live Faust, Die Jung.

  8. #1193
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    Strange is a good character for horror stories but he isn't exclusively a horror character. I would have liked to have seen the film that Derrickson was originally planning to do. He's a good director and he has an very good understanding of Strange's comics history. I'd seen speculation that Nightmare and/or Shuma Gorath were going to be the antagonist(s) in his script. I suspect that it would have been a true Doctor Strange story, and not just another MCU blockbuster event co-starring a bunch of other Marvel characters. We'll likely never know what Derrickson had planned. *shrugs* Kevin Feige has been very shrewd about the choices he's made to keep the MCU franchise successful and Marvel fans happy and eager for more. I assume that MoM will at least be entertaining and visually dazzling. I like multiverse/time travel stories when they're well told. I say that with the caveat that I personally find 99% of the MCU films to be fun but completely interchangeable and forgettable.
    What I've learned from this thread is that Stephen is an extremely VERSATILE character. He can hang out with Silver Surfer, Namor, Iron Man, Spider-Man and Ghost Rider with relative ease. That is really cool. I would have preferred Derrickson stayed. He got me into Strange in the first place with that first movie. He helped turn Stephen and Wong into literal quip machines (which I really like). I think Raimi is great, but I wonder if he is gonna bring a lot of corniness to the Multiverse of Madness. Nightmare and/or Shuma Gorath sounded like foes that Derrickson would have wanted. I've pretty much given up on MCU movies being standalone projects now. I'm actually okay with Stephen being in a crossover movie. I just prefer it to be more magical in nature. It makes more sense for me to have Man-Thing and Captain Britain show up as opposed to mutants. I agree multiverse/time travel stories can be good if written well. But I think it's hard. I thought Richard Matheson, Ray Bradbury, H.G. Wells and Harlan Ellison were really good at it. We'll see if the MCU writers are up to the challenge. And yes, I think Strange 2 will be very visually entertaining. I enjoy how Stephen has used magic in the movies thus far. I also agree with you that most of the MCU films are fun but pretty similar. Marvel Studios doesn't want to mess with a really successful formula and I understand why they keep doing what they're doing. But I AM growing weary of the third-act CGI fests. I still don't understand why that Black Widow movie had to have one. I appreciate WandaVision was definitely different from the other MCU offerings. I mean 8 out of the 9 episodes didn't really contain any typical superhero fare AT ALL. Which I thought was very cool. The CGI stuff in the final episode was not original, though.

  9. #1194
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    Here though is a for instance - Star Trek vs. Space:1999 The first epitomizes the genre to this day the later not so much but arguing here Space:1999 was distopian horror of Space Travel and some have argued it was Horror as Scifi. Just sayin
    Wow! I've never heard of Space 1999 before. Sounds very Planet of the Apes-ish. I'll have to learn more about it. Thanks for the heads-up dude!

  10. #1195
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Gonna be VERY hard for the MoM to surpass this:


  11. #1196

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    I think that the MCU writers wanted to stick as close as they could to Strange's origin story in the comics so they kept the role of The Ancient One but just changed that character to a Celtic woman. Swapping the Ancient One for Clea (an alien) might have been a good way to nullify a lot of the cringe-worthy Orientalist baggage from Strange's origin story. I do think that the MCU folks did their best and didn't mean to cause any offense by recasting The Ancient One as a Celtic woman. They definitely gave MCU Wong more agency and dignity than he had in 99% of the comics.
    I love MCU Wong. Comic book Wong really bugged me but MCU Wong is one of the few things from the Dr Strange movie that I enjoyed.

    Tilda Swinton's character would have worked if they had called her anything besides 'The Ancient One'.

    Otherwise, I found the first Dr Strange movie to be a very safe, mediocre movie. It did it's job in introducing magic to the MCU and I admit, some of the SFX was nice but otherwise I found it to be too safe and formulaic of an MCU movie. The only magic I didn't like was the Inception style scenes, otherwise I thought it was good. I remember way before a director or casting was announced for Dr Strange movie, Feige used to talk up the project in interviews and how a Dr Strange movie should be 'mind bending combo of Matrix, Miyazaki and Kubrik'. It sounds like they were really ambitous about it but ultimately settled for a 'safe' Marvel movie. The best MCU movies have always exceeded expectations (Cap2, GotG, IW, EG), imo and Dr Strange felt short. Though it looks like Fiege is going to get his big ambitious Dr Strange movie with Multiverse of Madness.

  12. #1197
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I love MCU Wong. Comic book Wong really bugged me but MCU Wong is one of the few things from the Dr Strange movie that I enjoyed.

    Tilda Swinton's character would have worked if they had called her anything besides 'The Ancient One'.

    Otherwise, I found the first Dr Strange movie to be a very safe, mediocre movie. It did it's job in introducing magic to the MCU and I admit, some of the SFX was nice but otherwise I found it to be too safe and formulaic of an MCU movie. The only magic I didn't like was the Inception style scenes, otherwise I thought it was good. I remember way before a director or casting was announced for Dr Strange movie, Feige used to talk up the project in interviews and how a Dr Strange movie should be 'mind bending combo of Matrix, Miyazaki and Kubrik'. It sounds like they were really ambitious about it but ultimately settled for a 'safe' Marvel movie. The best MCU movies have always exceeded expectations (Cap2, GotG, IW, EG), imo and Dr Strange felt short. Though it looks like Fiege is going to get his big ambitious Dr Strange movie with Multiverse of Madness.
    When I finally saw the first Doctor Strange movie (which I initially avoided because I disliked Benedict Cumberbatch), I enjoyed it, though I agree with you that it was a safe origin story. I also thought the New York fight scenes were too much like Inception, but the astral projection, out of body fighting, dimension hopping scenes were really well done, and I also liked how they portrayed Dormammu as a cosmic level threat. I don't know what to expect from MoM. From the online chatter I've seen so far, it's looking a lot like a Multiverse story co-starring Doctor Strange and many (too many?) other characters, and not so much focused on Strange as a character. It's hard to say if there will be any meaningful character-related insights/growth, or just a lot of flashy action sequences. It's still to early to really know what to expect because the MCU's official marketing machine hasn't really started cranking out material on this film yet.
    Last edited by Clea; 09-17-2021 at 06:52 PM.
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  13. #1198
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    When I finally saw the first Doctor Strange movie (which I initially avoided because I disliked Benedict Cumberbatch), I enjoyed it, though I agree with you that it was a safe origin story. I also thought the New York fight scenes were too much like Inception, but the astral projection, out of body fighting, dimension hopping scenes were really well done, and I also liked how they portrayed Dormammu as a cosmic level threat. I don't know what to expect from MoM. From the online chatter I've seen so far, it's looking a lot like a Multiverse story co-starring Doctor Strange and many (too many?) other characters, and not so much focused on Strange as a character. It's hard to say if there will be any meaningful character-related insights/growth, or just a lot of flashy action sequences. It's still to early to really know what to expect because the MCU's official marketing machine hasn't really started cranking out material on this film yet.
    I think they captured Dormammu's threat level well, but they really should've rethought him from a design perspective.

    Some of the concept art for him looked way better and closer to the comics than what we ended up with.

  14. #1199

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    Dormammu's 3 minute cameo was better then the no-name character they somehow convinced Mads Mikkelsen to play.

  15. #1200

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    I was initially excited for MoM because I thought introducing Wanda into Strange's world was a good choice and I wanted to see how their interactions would go. Though my enthusiasm did dim when I heard how many other characters they are supposedly including in this on top of the cast from the first Dr Strange returning.

    Still hoping that Nightmare makes an appearance one day.

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