Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[John Venus]

I wonder if it's just for voice? I can't imagine motion capture would be too easy when portraying a many tentacled monster.

Benedict Cumberbatch did motion capture to for a dragon for the Hobbit sequel.

[GenericUsername]

Benedict Cumberbatch did motion capture to for a dragon for the Hobbit sequel.

The dragon didn't have many tentacles though.

[Albert1981]

I seriously doubt it will be an aquatic movie.

I'm not sure why you find that shocking. Most of what I mentioned is in pulp and fantasy fiction, like Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard, that got pulled into the MU and assimilated. Water is life, both symbolically and literally. In folklore and religion and myths and magic, water has supernatural properties, and is a universal element. Have you never stood near an ocean? Or even a large lake? They are overwhelming the unknown ... and outside of "normal" experience.

That's the history of the MU. That's part of Atlantean magic and mostly shows up in Namor stories or in Conan and Kull stories. That doesn't mean it gets used all the time by writers. Modern comic writers tend to ignore the 75% of the world covered in water. Strange has a had few underwater magical adventures, but it isn't common. But there's definitely references to both underwater Atlantis and Lemuria and pre-Catacylsm Atlantis and Lemuria.

I didn't say OOC from the comics. I don't want to judge just from a trailer, but I didn't feel like that was the same Strange we'd seen in his own movie.

Doctor Strange doing a 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea-like movie would be weird, no doubt. Yeah, I've stood in front of oceans before. But I kind of try to avoid it. I'm scared of the water! And a couple of times I've stood near large bodies of water their were lots of people and boats in them so they felt less majestic to me. Plus, one of those times a fellow next to me farted and it was pretty distracting because it was rather loud. But I guess water definitely does appear to have "magical" qualities in it. No doubt about that. I'm just not used to Strange being involved in that king of thing. Namor, for sure yes.

To me, Stephen is SOMEWHAT similar to his previous movie self. He's still quippy as ever. Unfortunately, when characters are quippy their jokes can become kinda cringe. I've heard complaints about Strange's humor in that last Spider-Man trailer, but I don't mind it. I'm used to MCU humor by now and I enjoy most of it.

[Albert1981]

Time travel is not something only science characters are capable of doing.

What if is alt earth. What happens there is not impacted by the main universe and vice versa.

Multiverse can become messy. I hope they keep it more organized than people are rumoring it to be.

Oh, I understand that. But with Stephen possessing the Time Stone, I imagine a lot of his MCU stories will involve time. I've heard that wasn't always the case in the comic books. The What If Episode 4 story actually DIDN'T involve time travel at all. Stephen didn't travel back in time through the Quantum Realm using a time machine and Pym Particles. He was REVERSING time like Thanos did after Thanos killed Vision the FIRST time using the Time Stone. No new branches were created, Strange just "reversed" time using his Time Stone so he could take different driving routes or skip parties in his past WITHIN his same timeline (without meeting his younger selves) in an attempt to save Christine Palmer.

So what is an absolute point? It is an event that will lead to cause of another event. Here, the absolute point is the event which led Dr. Strange to become a sorcerer. The absolute point in this episode is Christine Palmer dying. Because of that he goes seeking for mystic arts. In the Strange 1 the absolute point was the damage to his hands. Why can't he reverse an absolute point? Now, here I just explained the absolute point was the sole reason he is a sorcerer now. Remember I said he reversed time not travelled through it? So if he had time travelled, he could have reversed the absolute point because time travel in the MCU would create an alternate timeline where she is still alive. But he had "reversed time". So if Christine Palmer didn't die (her death being the absolute point), Dr. Strange wouldn't have sought the mystic arts in the future. And he wouldn't become a sorcerer and finally he wouldn't be using the Eye of Aggamoto to go back to point where he currently is. It's a paradox. I'll say it again, the Time Stone was used to REVERSE time, not TRAVEL back in time. Hence that is why Doctor Strange (AFTER he became sorcerer) was the one on the date with Christine and he didn’t have to kill his old self to take his place to go on the date.

I feel Marvel needs to clear up what's becoming a very confusing situation regarding how their timelines actually work. I think the Ancient One could’ve worded her explanation to Strange a little more clearly when she described the absolute point. The time "manipulation" in What If episode 4 had NOTHING to do with the TVA and multiverses. But a LOT of viewers who finished watching Loki and started watching What If think that they actually DO. Because it was stated by Disney that in order to understand What If, you kinda needed to watch Loki. So it's natural for folks to assume that time travel and time "reversal/manipulation" are one and the same in the MCU. But they're totally NOT!!! I found it EXTREMELY confusing before I put things together. Marvel has spent a LOT of time explaining how timelines actually work in the MCU in Endgame, Loki and What If. But I think plenty of people still don't understand what the hell is going on. THAT's why I'm concerned that the MoM is gonna be confusing to audiences. And I think that's why the movie's doing reshoots. I'm just not sure it's gonna make any difference in the end. This kind of storytelling is quite esoteric and convoluted. Comic book readers, for the most part, seem to enjoy these sort of things. I DON'T.

If What If is "not canon" to the MCU, then I don't think there should be a problem. But if Peggy Carter shows up in the MoM, then yeah it could get confusing for audiences.

[GenericUsername]

Oh, I understand that. But with Stephen possessing the Time Stone, I imagine a lot of his MCU stories will involve time. I've heard that wasn't always the case in the comic books. The What If Episode 4 story actually DIDN'T involve time travel at all. Stephen didn't travel back in time through the Quantum Realm using a time machine and Pym Particles. He was REVERSING time like Thanos did after Thanos killed Vision the FIRST time using the Time Stone. No new branches were created, Strange just "reversed" time using his Time Stone so he could take different driving routes or skip parties in his past WITHIN his same timeline (without meeting his younger selves) in an attempt to save Christine Palmer.

So what is an absolute point? It is an event that will lead to cause of another event. Here, the absolute point is the event which led Dr. Strange to become a sorcerer. The absolute point in this episode is Christine Palmer dying. Because of that he goes seeking for mystic arts. In the Strange 1 the absolute point was the damage to his hands. Why can't he reverse an absolute point? Now, here I just explained the absolute point was the sole reason he is a sorcerer now. Remember I said he reversed time not travelled through it? So if he had time travelled, he could have reversed the absolute point because time travel in the MCU would create an alternate timeline where she is still alive. But he had "reversed time". So if Christine Palmer didn't die (her death being the absolute point), Dr. Strange wouldn't have sought the mystic arts in the future. And he wouldn't become a sorcerer and finally he wouldn't be using the Eye of Aggamoto to go back to point where he currently is. It's a paradox. I'll say it again, the Time Stone was used to REVERSE time, not TRAVEL back in time. Hence that is why Doctor Strange (AFTER he became sorcerer) was the one on the date with Christine and he didn’t have to kill his old self to take his place to go on the date.

I feel Marvel needs to clear up what's becoming a very confusing situation regarding how their timelines actually work. I think the Ancient One could’ve worded her explanation to Strange a little more clearly when she described the absolute point. The time "manipulation" in What If episode 4 had NOTHING to do with the TVA and multiverses. But a LOT of viewers who finished watching Loki and started watching What If think that they actually DO. Because it was stated by Disney that in order to understand What If, you kinda needed to watch Loki. So it's natural for folks to assume that time travel and time "reversal/manipulation" are one and the same in the MCU. But they're totally NOT!!! I found it EXTREMELY confusing before I put things together. Marvel has spent a LOT of time explaining how time actually works in the MCU in Endgame, Loki and What If. But I think plenty of people still don't understand what the hell is going on. THAT's why I'm concerned that the MoM is gonna be confusing to audiences. And I think that's why the movie's doing reshoots. I'm just not sure it's gonna make any difference in the end. This kind of storytelling is quite esoteric and convoluted. Comic book readers, for the most part, seem to enjoy these sort of things. I DON'T.

If What If is "not canon" to the MCU, then I don't think there should be a problem. But if Peggy Carter shows up in the MoM, then yeah it could get confusing for audiences.

They explained how the timelines work in Loki. They aren't interconnected. But they can affect one another. So what happens in another universe doesn't apply to characters of the main universe. But the other universes can threaten the existence of the main universe. What if is not canon to the main universe of the MCU. If Captain Carter shows up in MoM, she's still Captain Carter from her universe. Not Peggy Carter that died in the main universe.

[Albert1981]

They explained how the timelines work in Loki. They aren't interconnected. But they can affect one another. So what happens in another universe doesn't apply to characters of the main universe. But the other universes can threaten the existence of the main universe. What if is not canon to the main universe of the MCU. If Captain Carter shows up in MoM, she's still Captain Carter from her universe. Not Peggy Carter that died in the main universe.

Looking forward to the MoM explaining what Peggy's doing in that movie if she's actually in it. If they didn't watch Loki, it could be challenging for audiences to make sense of things. That's why I think it would be great if characters from the Loki series show up in the MoM to "explain" things once again. And that will absolutely kill the pacing for that movie. I can definitely see why Derrickson left this project. I can't believe the Disney Plus shows actually damaged my anticipation for watching Strange 2. I was fucking hyped to see it. I hope the reshoots fix whatever problems is going on with that film. I do agree with that Grace Randolph lady that the MoM had some problems, but I don't believe it was because of Wanda's alleged villainy. I think the time travel/multiverse stuff might have gone over people's heads because a lot of them didn't watch the Disney Plus shows.

[Clea]

Looking forward to the MoM explaining what Peggy's doing in that movie if she's actually in it. If they didn't watch Loki, it could be challenging for audiences to make sense of things. That's why I think it would be great if characters from the Loki series show up in the MoM to "explain" things once again. And that will absolutely kill the pacing for that movie. I can definitely see why Derrickson left this project. I can't believe the Disney Plus shows actually damaged my anticipation for watching Strange 2. I was fucking hyped to see it. I hope the reshoots fix whatever problems is going on with that film. I do agree with that Grace Randolph lady that the MoM had some problems, but I don't believe it was because of Wanda's alleged villainy. I think the time travel/multiverse stuff might have gone over people's heads because a lot of them didn't watch the Disney Plus shows.

The MCU is careful about not making the films dependent on the tv shows. I'm sure they'll include just enough - but not too much - exposition to explain any variant characters from other universes that show up in the movie. Don't assume the reshoots on MoM are because of problems. Reshoots are normal, especially on MCU films. This film production was disrupted a lot by COVID so they're likely filling in bits that they had to skip over or rush through. Ignore any online fan speculation about problems on the film shoot and just wait to see the final product. It doesn't even matter if the first cut of the film was an absolute stinker and now they're secretly re-filming the entire thing. The final product is all that matters. Instead of worrying about all of the possible things that might go wrong, I recommend just focusing on what you're hoping to see in the film instead. I'm hoping to see some new insights into how MCU Stephen Strange thinks and behaves, on a personal level with his associates and as Sorcerer Supreme dealing with challenges. I'd be delighted if Clea is in the film, even as a cameo, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen. I'd also be happy to see Wong play an active role in the action sequences because I like how they established Wong as a sorcerer in his own right in the first film. I love seeing Wong treated as a serious character and not just someone who fetches tea for Strange.

[Albert1981]

The MCU is careful about not making the films dependent on the tv shows. I'm sure they'll include just enough - but not too much - exposition to explain any variant characters from other universes that show up in the movie. Don't assume the reshoots on MoM are because of problems. Reshoots are normal, especially on MCU films. This film production was disrupted a lot by COVID so they're likely filling in bits that they had to skip over or rush through. Ignore any online fan speculation about problems on the film shoot and just wait to see the final product. It doesn't even matter if the first cut of the film was an absolute stinker and now they're secretly re-filming the entire thing. The final product is all that matters. Instead of worrying about all of the possible things that might go wrong, I recommend just focusing on what you're hoping to see in the film instead. I'm hoping to see some new insights into how MCU Stephen Strange thinks and behaves, on a personal level with his associates and as Sorcerer Supreme dealing with challenges. I'd be delighted if Clea is in the film, even as a cameo, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen. I'd also be happy to see Wong play an active role in the action sequences because I like how they established Wong as a sorcerer in his own right in the first film. I love seeing Wong treated as a serious character and not just someone who fetches tea for Strange.

Yeah, I think I've been focused too much on the negatives. I like Strange in the movies a LOT. But since his stories there are so focused on timelines, I feel I have to do "research" on time travel and multiverses to understand them (which feels very tedious to me). You're right, there might be no problems to cause the reshoots. I'm still glad Disney is taking more time to improve things. I also like Wong in the MCU a lot too. I don't recall him enjoying music so much in the comics! If Clea shows up in the MoM, that would be wonderful. She's hot. But I wouldn't mind her debuting in the Agatha Harkness show where I assume it will be less crowded.

[GenericUsername]

Looking forward to the MoM explaining what Peggy's doing in that movie if she's actually in it. If they didn't watch Loki, it could be challenging for audiences to make sense of things. That's why I think it would be great if characters from the Loki series show up in the MoM to "explain" things once again. And that will absolutely kill the pacing for that movie. I can definitely see why Derrickson left this project. I can't believe the Disney Plus shows actually damaged my anticipation for watching Strange 2. I was fucking hyped to see it. I hope the reshoots fix whatever problems is going on with that film. I do agree with that Grace Randolph lady that the MoM had some problems, but I don't believe it was because of Wanda's alleged villainy. I think the time travel/multiverse stuff might have gone over people's heads because a lot of them didn't watch the Disney Plus shows.

We have to see how much of the movie falls in line with rumors before going into anything Grace might be right about. So far they haven't even gotten the villain right. So for the rest, we'll have to wait. But there has been nothing to confirm Captain Carter or anything outside of the cast already announced.

As for time travel and multiverse stuff, I think people will get it. Because they already had it in Endgame. So the basic premise is already explained. It's also pretty simple. If they are from another universe, they are a different version of that character. Not the same. Just like how MCU characters are different from comics characters so they are completely different in a lot of ways.

[DigiCom]

Oh, I understand that. But with Stephen possessing the Time Stone, I imagine a lot of his MCU stories will involve time.

He doesn't have it anymore, though. Thanos destroyed the Stones between IW & Endgame, and the Time Stone recovered from the past was returned.

(Personally, I'm hoping for a more comics-accurate Eye at some point)

[Clea]

He doesn't have it anymore, though. Thanos destroyed the Stones between IW & Endgame, and the Time Stone recovered from the past was returned.

(Personally, I'm hoping for a more comics-accurate Eye at some point)

I'd like to see a comic-accurate version of the Eye used in the movies, too. Turning the Eye into an Infinity Stone was for me the biggest disappointment in the first film. I understand why the MCU made this choice. They needed a quick way to tie Strange directly into the Thanos/Infinity Stone storyline, and it also provided a super simple explanation for magic: Strange has power because he has an Infinity Stone. MCU 'magic' ends up looking like a shiny version of quantum mechanics 'spooky action at a distance' instead of actual magic.

[GenericUsername]

He doesn't have it anymore, though. Thanos destroyed the Stones between IW & Endgame, and the Time Stone recovered from the past was returned.

(Personally, I'm hoping for a more comics-accurate Eye at some point)

The Russos said the stones were not destroyed, just reduced to micro level.

[DigiCom]

The Russos said the stones were not destroyed, just reduced to micro level.

Fair enough. But Strange doesn't have any Time Stone molecules, either.

[Albert1981]

He doesn't have it anymore, though. Thanos destroyed the Stones between IW & Endgame, and the Time Stone recovered from the past was returned.

(Personally, I'm hoping for a more comics-accurate Eye at some point)

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I thought the What If stuff was "canon". Maybe we'll get a proper adaptation of the "Eye" eventually, maybe in the MoM.

I just also wanted to clarify I have no problem if folks from the Loki Show appear in the MoM. That actually would be an excellent decision in my opinion to do reshoots. I think Marvel Studios has to connect MoM with Loki in a tighter way, and I think that could help with cameos from Hiddleston's series. I also think it would help a LOT if Agatha appeared in the MoM. It will make the connection between WandaVision and the MoM smoother in my view. Having mutants appear as variants would make this film too busy in my opinion.

[Clea]

Hopefully these issues have been out long enough that I don't need to stick this behind spoiler tags.

I've been thinking about the Death of Doctor Strange and who the murderer might be. After issue #3, I thought Mordo was the killer. I've been thinking about it a lot since reading the issue, and now I'm not sure at all. There are still two more issues to go, so it seems a bit early to reveal the killer's identity. So far, we've seen three possible sorcerous suspects: Pavel Plotnick (from issue #1), Kaecilius (issues 2-3), and Karl Mordo (issues 2-3). Do you think Strange's murderer is one of these three guys (acting individually or together), or someone we haven't yet seen? I'm ruling out the four other-dimension warlords, because Strange would have sensed their presence at the Sanctum before he opened the door.

Plotnick: Dude just wanted a little power! Strange thought he'd helped Plotnick by severing his connection to the dying Plane of Cinnibus and then leaving him in the hands of a couple NYC cops. Maybe Plotnick was linked to more than just the Seven Sons of Cinnibus.

Kaecilius: He was harboring a serious grudge against Strange after being exiled to the Purple Dimension. But does he have enough power (or courage) to murder Strange?

Mordo: Mordo has been Strange's arch enemy from the start and we know he stole the Eye of Agamotto and the Cloak of Levitation from Strange's murdered body. But did he kill Strange or just capitalize off of Strange's death by stealing the Sorcerer Supreme swag?

Could it be someone that we have not yet seen in the mini-series? Anything's possible.

After thinking about it, I've decided that it would be cool if the murderer turns out to be Plotnick. Where did he get all that power from in the first place?

Plotnick: Kaecilius:

Mordo: