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  1. #601
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    True, Stephen does get better with time and usage.

    Also, like anyone who does astral projection or a mind-control where their physical body is "left helpless", there is considerable concern for it, especially in the beginning usage of that power. But as they use it more often, they either learn to "safeguard" their physical form while in use and/or see the higher importance need for going astral.
    That was my understanding, but like I said, I can't remember the exact circumstances of this particular instance. Of course, it could just have been something Stan changed his mind on later.



    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Probably something like Mr. Vampire or Magic Cop.
    Oh no! I was thinking of something more in the vein of Chen Kaige's The Promise or Zhang Yimou's films like House of Flying Daggers -- though those don't have a lot of magic and are melodramatic, but they are GORGEOUS.

    Though you are right, they would probably end up looking like those, or Chinese Ghost Story or maybe Detective Dee.

    I need to watch more Korean fantasy movies. I remember one from a few years ago called The Restless, sort of like Orpheus, that would fit a Doctor Strange perfectly, IMO.
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  2. #602
    Incredible Member Eto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    I just re-read ST #154 to look at Strange's use of astral projection in that story. I think the writers (Stan Lee/Marie Severin) implied that Strange performed some sort of spell on his physical form so that it would be impervious to harm while his astral self went off to rescue Clea. The text says that he turned his body 'into a shadowy shell' so that it wouldn't be affected by the Mindless Ones. I don't recall if we've ever seen Strange perform this sort of spell again to protect his body while his astral self is away. In most stories, when Strange astral projects it's clear that his physical form is vulnerable to physical interference and harm. The 'shadowy shell' transformation doesn't really work for me, but the writers needed it for their story.

    As for the Ancient One sending Clea off to some unknown dimension in ST #155, never to be seen again... Sigh. The Ancient One's logic doesn't really make sense here: Umar is so strong that her powers might reach all the way to earth, so best to just use a spell to fling Clea off into some unknown dimension somewhere else (the Nameless Nowhere as he describes it), never to be seen again. What the hell? When you eventually see where she ended up, it's not like he did her any favors. LOL. Poor Clea.
    Thank you Clea.

  3. #603
    Incredible Member Eto's Avatar
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    Okay I've finished Strange Tales #156 up until and including #168
    #168 (AKA the final Dr. Strange story in this book).

    Some notes & questions:


    #156
    I'm sorry, but.....is it me or does Zom look a bit retarded?
    So they brought Zom in order to deal with Umar.
    Now Umar has fled to the dark dimension and Strange is stuck with Zom.

    *big brain moment for the Ancient One*

    #157
    OMG the very first appearance of THE LIVING TRIBUNAL


    #158
    Why would The Living Tribunal want to destroy the Earth....isn't he supposed to be a force of good? Or is he simply neutral, basically there for balance in the entire universe?


    Also, in this issue, how is fixing his cloak hard when he was literally able to conjure money a few issues back?


    #160
    Why is Mordo acting like such a fool?!
    He could die as well, Strange wants him to help at this dire situation, but of course his hatred toward Strange is too strong.


    #163
    I didn't know LT could see with all his three faces?! Or did he mean it in a figurative way?

    Also, did Nebulos only appear in 161, 162 and 163? I did a quick search and he's only appeared in three issues apparently? (just want to check here it that's correct)
    Do you think they should bring him back or nah?



    I'm now planning to read solo ongoing of Doctor Strange issues 169-183.
    Why didn't they start at #1 though?
    I get that it's a continuation from 168, but isn't this considered "cheating" since Strange wasn't in Strange Tales BEFORE issue #110.
    In my opinion, instead of issue #169, numbering it as something in issue 50s (since he's appeared in over 50+ issues in Strange Tales) would make much more sense. Anyways, just a little nit-pick, nothing too big.

  4. #604
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Anyone that's read a fairy tale knows magic isn't a do anything, anytime ability. There are any number of restrictions and 'rules' on magic in fairy tales depending on the fairy tale. Cinderella's illusions only lasts to midnight and requires a physical anchor for the spell. The Little Mermaid can have legs, but can't speak, and pays a price for the magic. There's the Rule of Three, the Power of True Names, The Power of True Love, Faustian Bargains, etc. etc. etc. Stories don't need rule books for readers to understand magic has limits.

    It's Marvel's modern writers and editors that promote this ridiculous idea that magic is too powerful to incorporate into stories, and that Doctor Strange needs to be nerfed or he becomes a deus ex machina device.






    I don't understand why "it's 'science,' we don't have to explain it," isn't an issue for you but "it's magic, we don't have to explain it" is an issue. Marvel completely ignores the the 'rules' of science and uses it a 'do anything, anytime,' power far worse than magic. Stark and Richards and Banner and T'challa and the rest of the polymath egg heads must have extra-dimensional rectums considering how often these guys have pulled some allegedly 'scientific' deus ex machina from their asses.
    I quoted that comment, so I can't totally defend it. I actually thought about your Cinderella example a few days ago and disagreed with that part of that poster's statement. And I do think "fairy tales" of old did set some informal rules to their magic (like genies in bottles regularly state that you can't wish for more wishes). And I do agree with you, deus ex machinas are prevalent in many genres: Platoon (war film), Twelve Angry Men (courtoom drama), Lord of the Flies (dystopian novel) and Star Trek: The Game (science fiction) amongst others. All those examples are stories that I LOVE. The "problems" in those examples NEEDED to be solved by HIGHLY unexpected and unlikely occurrences. That being said, EACH of those deus ex machinas were PLAUSIBLE because they were based in the "real world" and on "real things" (like bombers, glasses, boats and flashlights). Unfortunately, the fantasy genre is not based on anything tangible or on things that exist. That what makes it stand out. A lot of mystical elements in fantasy stories just simply can't be explained. That's what makes it so cool and fascinating, but frustrating and exasperating at the same time. I actually think deus ex machinas could DEFINITELY work in fantasy stories, but ONLY if the magic use is LIMITED and only applied when the protagonists overcame most massive obstacles WITHOUT ITS ASSISTANCE like in Pinocchio, the Wizard of Oz and even the Lord of the Rings. But if magic is used early and often in these action-adventure stories, then storytellers are opening the way to inconsistencies and contradictions. That's why I support "harder" magical systems when magic is used a LOT in stories. So that the rules wouldn't be violated.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-16-2021 at 05:35 PM.

  5. #605
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Where was Iron Fist a master of the mystical arts? Was this some Bendis ... stuff? I don't recall Iron Fist ever doing magic.
    Yeah, I'm sorry I made such a hasty judgement. I actually feel pretty embarrassed about my error and I apologize. I'm not too familiar with Iron Fist's history. I just thought him possessing like a tenth degree black belt meant that he mastered the mystical force known as the Iron Fist as well. That was my bad!

  6. #606

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Yeah, I'm sorry I made such a hasty judgement. I actually feel pretty embarrassed about my error and I apologize. I'm not too familiar with Iron Fist's history. I just thought him possessing like a tenth degree black belt meant that he mastered the mystical force known as the Iron Fist as well. That was my bad!
    Iron Fist is a master of chi, and knows a few tricks (the Fist technique being the most used) but he's not a magician at any level.

  7. #607
    Fantastic Member Tulku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eto View Post
    #158
    Why would The Living Tribunal want to destroy the Earth....isn't he supposed to be a force of good? Or is he simply neutral, basically there for balance in the entire universe?


    Also, in this issue, how is fixing his cloak hard when he was literally able to conjure money a few issues back?
    No, the Tribunal is above mere good and evil...and thus the greatest threat of all!

    As for the Cloak, the weave itself is filled with magic (it is not just a piece of cloth). In a sense, the movie had this right: magical spells and powers were bound up in the object. That makes it more difficult to repair (compared to just conjuring the colored bits of paper that we call money). Many years and many issues later, the Cloak is damaged again and this time Strange lacks the ability to mend it and has to go seek the original maker of the Cloak to restore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eto View Post
    #160
    Why is Mordo acting like such a fool?!
    He could die as well, Strange wants him to help at this dire situation, but of course his hatred toward Strange is too strong.
    Mordo is often depicted as unhinged. This isn't even him at his worst--he comes up with some ludicrously self-destructive schemes to try to beat Strange!

    I can't recall Nebulos making any reappearance. Certainly not in the solo Dr. Strange books, but I am less knowledgeable about The Defenders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eto View Post
    I'm now planning to read solo ongoing of Doctor Strange issues 169-183.
    Why didn't they start at #1 though?
    I get that it's a continuation from 168, but isn't this considered "cheating" since Strange wasn't in Strange Tales BEFORE issue #110.
    In my opinion, instead of issue #169, numbering it as something in issue 50s (since he's appeared in over 50+ issues in Strange Tales) would make much more sense. Anyways, just a little nit-pick, nothing too big.
    In those days, numbering wasn't considered that big a deal (this was well before the desire to have multiple "Issue # 1"). The next time they relaunch Doc in a solo title (and the path gets a little complicated but he does get there in the end) they re-start at #1 rather than actually try to count appearances. And then there is that bogus "Legacy numbering" count that they did which makes no sense at all! I've decided that it is best to just not get hung up on it.
    "Age is not defined by years, but by regrets...I'm an old man now." --Fighting Yank, "Project Superpowers"

  8. #608
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Iron Fist is a master of chi, and knows a few tricks (the Fist technique being the most used) but he's not a magician at any level.
    Thank you so much for that clarification!

  9. #609
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tulku View Post
    ...I can't recall Nebulos making any reappearance. Certainly not in the solo Dr. Strange books, but I am less knowledgeable about The Defenders...
    I don't remember Nebulos turning up in The Defenders. I thought he was destroyed in that Strange Tales story. Of course, death in Marvel doesn't really mean much so there's no reason why he couldn't show up again.
    Live Faust, Die Jung.

  10. #610

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    I don't remember Nebulos turning up in The Defenders. I thought he was destroyed in that Strange Tales story. Of course, death in Marvel doesn't really mean much so there's no reason why he couldn't show up again.
    I believe there may be some confusion:

    Nebulos appeared in three issues of Strange Tales: https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nebulos_(Earth-616)

    Nebulon has appeared in multiple Defenders stories: https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nebulon_(Earth-616)

  11. #611
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    I believe there may be some confusion:

    Nebulos appeared in three issues of Strange Tales: https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nebulos_(Earth-616)

    Nebulon has appeared in multiple Defenders stories: https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nebulon_(Earth-616)
    Thanks for the links. So per this article, Nebulos was only seemingly destroyed, so he could show up again in a future story if someone wanted to use him. I don't see why anyone would want to. On the other hand, I didn't think anyone would ever bring back Zom either, but we all know how that turned out.
    Live Faust, Die Jung.

  12. #612
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Interesting article about hard vs soft magic systems. I guess hard magic systems are a relatively recent phenomenon in literature:

    https://alexraizman.com/2019/05/26/h...-which-to-use/

    Interesting article about the difference between science fiction and fantasy:

    https://fantasybookfanatic.com/diffe...n-and-fantasy/

    Doctor Strange (2016) is seen as a successful fantasy as well as a superhero film:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm7S4g85qPo

    And I am the only one to be surprised to learn that Loki will actually be a "crime thriller" show? I guess Hiddleston will probably be "playing" D.B. Cooper after all. Now THAT should be fun.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-16-2021 at 08:56 PM.

  13. #613
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    gonna post this here as well:
    magic is not a powerset but a way to deal/study/influence the universe/reality, just like science is the way used by scientists, a sorcerer is a magic based scientist, as it happens with science the limit is represented by what is still unknown and needs to be studied/mastered, the sorcerer supreme can't be compared to spider man, the juggernaut has a magic based powerset, pixie from the x-men has a magic based powerset, Stephen strange should be compared to Reed Richards or Tony Stark.
    "Can we just say that she is a chaos magic avatar and that her origin is split across the multiverse? She has no beginning, she has no end, she exists to be the improbability of the cosmos. She's neither mutant, inhuman, sorcereress or otherwise. Everything and nothing." (Anonymous)

  14. #614
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    gonna post this here as well:
    magic is not a powerset but a way to deal/study/influence the universe/reality, just like science is the way used by scientists, a sorcerer is a magic based scientist, as it happens with science the limit is represented by what is still unknown and needs to be studied/mastered, the sorcerer supreme can't be compared to spider man, the juggernaut has a magic based powerset, pixie from the x-men has a magic based powerset, Stephen strange should be compared to Reed Richards or Tony Stark.
    Yeah, I agree with you that Stephen is more closer to Reed and Tony. The comparison between Strange and Stark has been mentioned here many times. I also definitely understand your perspective on science and magic in a superhero universe as well. Thanks for the insightful words, dude!

  15. #615
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    gonna post this here as well:
    magic is not a powerset but a way to deal/study/influence the universe/reality, just like science is the way used by scientists, a sorcerer is a magic based scientist, as it happens with science the limit is represented by what is still unknown and needs to be studied/mastered, the sorcerer supreme can't be compared to spider man, the juggernaut has a magic based powerset, pixie from the x-men has a magic based powerset, Stephen strange should be compared to Reed Richards or Tony Stark.
    I agree that in terms of experience and abilities, Strange, Richards, and Stark are all at the top of the list for each of their skills.
    Live Faust, Die Jung.

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