Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Clea]

Just watched the first episode of the PBS Hemingway documentary. I came away more convinced than ever that Marvel is doing the right thing by making him change the way Strange talks. I think Old Strange, from what I've read, talks in too much archaic prose with lots of flowery and verbose phrases which would alienate modern audiences. And by using that kind of syntax and grammar, it disrupts the pacing of a lot of stories he takes part in (in my humble opinion). Hemingway (and dudes like Bradbury and Salinger who followed in his wake) knew that rhythm was really REALLY important in the use of certain words to tell tales. Use too many, and the pacing goes sideways. So I agree with Disney's decision to make Strange more like Stark-like when it comes to his dialogue. I apologize if this statement offends longtime Doctor Strange fans.

I was just wondering, do you think it would be possible for Strange to "heal" Rhodey's injuries by using magic? I think this would be a VERY bad idea, and somebody posted a comment elsewhere which echoes my own sentiments:

"There are a lot of people and kids out there who don’t have a Stark Technology or Strange magical solution and live with a disability that greatly affects their life. There’s not a lot of representation for those kids, and Marvel has an opportunity to correct that with Armor Wars."

I know folks here on this thread really enjoy Strange's mystical powers, but his background as a surgeon also fascinated me. I watched quite a few medical dramas as a kid, and I've long been interested in medical ethics in particular. I always thought it would be cool if Strange actually LOST his powers for a while, and he had to make some tough medical decisions during that time. Has that ever happened? I ask this because a lot of magic users in the Marvel Universe and the MCU are not actual medical practitioners.

I also know many of the posters here really want to see Clea show up (so do I, believe me), but I also have a very soft spot for the Night Nurse as well. I diverge from folks here in that I really admire fictional characters in a superhero world who don't have any powers at all, but who are ready to use their knowledge and training to help people who are in pain. To me it's kind of like medics helping soldiers (superheroes in this case) who have been wounded in battle. So that's why I have no problem with the Night Nurse appearing again in the Multiverse of Madness.

Back in the day, the Marvel writers used to write Strange's dialogue and spells in a very stylized manner because they thought it sounded mysterious and otherworldly. It was a very old fashioned, pulp fiction sort of style. They dropped that approach years ago and just have him speaking like a normal person, which I think makes him a more accessible character.

As for using magic to heal injuries, in theory it's possible but it's not advisable for a host of reasons. As for the Night Nurse character, or Dr. Palmer appearing the next film, we'll see what the MCU writers choose to do.

[Eto]

Just read Strange Tales #133
They should use Shazana more often.
I also like the name.
lol

[Reviresco]

Hey, Rev, and I agree with you.

Saying incantations which may sound variously tome-y is the right pattern for Dr. Strange.

We are simpatico on many subjects, my friend.

If you think about it, we got so many stories (and magic items) out of Doctor Strange's incantations and flowery speech.

[Reviresco]

I just caught up on Mark Waid's Surgeon Supreme run. Does anyone know why the series was canceled? I thought it was really good.

Sales, probably.

Was it doing that bad? I didn't think so. Besides which, Marvel tends to give the MCU characters some slack when it comes to sales.

I can't remember if I read it or if my LCBS guy told me, but there may have been a parting of ways with Mark Waid, i.e. he wanted to go in a direction with Strange that editorial didn't care for. Or perhaps, Waid just parted with Marvel again. I don't think he's on any Marvel book right now.

[Clea]

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you on all counts.

Hemingway's writing is boring. There's zero love of language there, much less use of rhythm. Rhythm is the realm of poetry and lyrical language, and that is what sticks with and inspires people. I can't think of a single memorable quote from Hemingway. And for someone who was all about stripping writing down to nothing, he sure didn't do so when he went for his titles, where he went straight for those 'flowery' poets like John Dunne and the KJV Bible.

As for appealing to modern audiences, there's plenty of them that LOVE articulate and interesting dialogue, full of wordplay and poetry and rhythm, instead of monosyllabic, slang filled, 'realistic' speech, exemplified by the horror of Bendis talk. There were huge audiences for Downton Abbey and Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings to name a few, not to mention the near constant staging of Shakespeare.

And no. Please no. Doctor Strange should never be more like Tony Stark. I don't think Disney or MCU are going that route at all, since they cast Benedict Cumberbatch, who easily handles the more "archaic prose" of magic. Heck, casting mostly Brits, instead of raiding SNL, for the Doctor Strange movie shows they don't want just another RDJ. The comics are making a mistake, IMO, to 'simplify' Doctor Strange and his speech.

I concede that Silver Age Doctor Strange may not be everyone's cup of tea now, but I still enjoy reading comics that have more than five word balloons on a page. And I think that Doctor Strange, more than most comics, needs to have more prose, and the character should be more articulate and verbose. He deals with esoteric subjects and larger than life opponents. Spells are all about language, often ancient and intricate. I know I may be in the minority, but I actually miss the Roy Thomas rhymed spells.

I agree with you on all counts. Hemingway's writing style is not a good fit for writing Strange or magic. The prose should be more lyrical and thoughtful. If Strange is using archaic spells, of course those spells need to sound appropriately cerebral and mysterious. Rhyming spells rhyme for a reason, so if Strange needs to use one these days, he should. The rhythm and rhyme of the spell might be needed in order for magic user to use the spell effectively. But not all spells should rhyme automatically. If a magic user is invoking the power of an otherworldly deity, perhaps that being expects a certain about of ceremonial language in the spell as a courtesy in recognition of their elevated status. It all depends on what sort of spell the magic user needs.

I do think that Silver Age Strange often sounded a bit too grandiose in his everyday speaking style - but really all of the Silver Age characters tended to speak in broad strokes and exclamation points all of the time. I just shrug it off as being a quirk of Silver Age comics writing in general. The style doesn't interfere at all with my enjoyment of the stories. If people don't like that style, they should just not read those older books. It doesn't matter. I do think that having contemporary Strange speak like a normal contemporary man in his non-magic interactions with people makes him a more accessible character, but that doesn't mean that his dialogue should be interchangeable with any other Marvel character.

Also agree 1000% that Strange should not be more like Tony Stark. They're not the same person. Personalities are not interchangeable.

[Clea]

Was it doing that bad? I didn't think so. Besides which, Marvel tends to give the MCU characters some slack when it comes to sales.

I can't remember if I read it or if my LCBS guy told me, but there may have been a parting of ways with Mark Waid, i.e. he wanted to go in a direction with Strange that editorial didn't care for. Or perhaps, Waid just parted with Marvel again. I don't think he's on any Marvel book right now.

I think Waid is a good writer. Regardless of whatever behind the scenes reason caused Marvel to cancel this title, I hope that Waid gets a chance to write for Marvel again on something, even if it's not Doctor Strange.

[DigiCom]

Hey, Rev, and I agree with you.

Saying incantations which may sound variously tome-y is the right pattern for Dr. Strange.

Count me for the "vaguely formal" Strange speech pattern.

I mean, which sounds cooler?"

"I need to cast a mystic shield, or my ass is cooked!" or "Seven rings hath Raggador, from indigo to deepest black. Yet Oshtur grant me something more: The Crimson Bands of Cyttorak!"

Was it doing that bad? I didn't think so. Besides which, Marvel tends to give the MCU characters some slack when it comes to sales.

I can't remember if I read it or if my LCBS guy told me, but there may have been a parting of ways with Mark Waid, i.e. he wanted to go in a direction with Strange that editorial didn't care for. Or perhaps, Waid just parted with Marvel again. I don't think he's on any Marvel book right now.

Among my friends, we tend to assume money as a motivation unless specifically told otherwise.

[Reviresco]

I think Waid is a good writer. Regardless of whatever behind the scenes reason caused Marvel to cancel this title, I hope that Waid gets a chance to write for Marvel again on something, even if it's not Doctor Strange.

He is a good, and well known writer, with a following. I'm sure both companies will be happy to engage his services. But there appears to be something going on / holding his interest right now, as I don't think he's got anything coming out right now. I know there was some gossip that the would get the Superman books after Bendis, as that's a title he's wanted to do, but that didn't happen, so ....

I just wish Marvel would get caught up or whatever they are delaying over, and announce a Doctor Strange book! The only thing we've got to look forward to is a maybe Defenders book featuring Doctor Strange.

[Albert1981]

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you on all counts.

Hemingway's writing is boring. There's zero love of language there, much less use of rhythm. Rhythm is the realm of poetry and lyrical language, and that is what sticks with and inspires people. I can't think of a single memorable quote from Hemingway. And for someone who was all about stripping writing down to nothing, he sure didn't do so when he went for his titles, where he went straight for those 'flowery' poets like John Dunne and the KJV Bible.

As for appealing to modern audiences, there's plenty of them that LOVE articulate and interesting dialogue, full of wordplay and poetry and rhythm, instead of monosyllabic, slang filled, 'realistic' speech, exemplified by the horror of Bendis talk. There were huge audiences for Downton Abbey and Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings to name a few, not to mention the near constant staging of Shakespeare.

And no. Please no. Doctor Strange should never be more like Tony Stark. I don't think Disney or MCU are going that route at all, since they cast Benedict Cumberbatch, who easily handles the more "archaic prose" of magic. Heck, casting mostly Brits, instead of raiding SNL, for the Doctor Strange movie shows they don't want just another RDJ. The comics are making a mistake, IMO, to 'simplify' Doctor Strange and his speech.

I concede that Silver Age Doctor Strange may not be everyone's cup of tea now, but I still enjoy reading comics that have more than five word balloons on a page. And I think that Doctor Strange, more than most comics, needs to have more prose, and the character should be more articulate and verbose. He deals with esoteric subjects and larger than life opponents. Spells are all about language, often ancient and intricate. I know I may be in the minority, but I actually miss the Roy Thomas rhymed spells.

It's my turn to apologize to you now. Because I can't agree with you either. I can't STAND wordy dialogue and grandiloquent prose. It's WAY too rigid and formal for me. I think it's pretentious and bombastic, and I don't have any patience or tolerance for that kind of thing. It definitely works in the Lord of the Rings (which I watched and read), Game of Thrones and Downtown Abbey (both of which I didn't), all of which took place a long time ago. But we're well into the 21st century now. Papa wasn't well-known for his quotes because he didn't write like Faulkner or Fitzgerald. His language was lean, sparse, minimalist and restrained. He didn't have to use elegant words to get his points across. And this approach has continued to influence American literature up to this day. I am a HUGE fan of the "less is more" technique of storytelling. Any words, plotlines and characters that are unnecessary should be eliminated. I don't wanna have Stephen talking like medieval wizards from the latest RPGs. He's not Merlin or Gandalf. Even I know that. Sure, use incantations to cast spells. That's totally appropriate. But please don't go overboard with the expository gobbledygook. I have nothing but praise for the way Strange has been portrayed thus far in the movies. The Doctor Strange I remember from the comic books would never call people "assholes" and "douchebags", but he's doing it on screen and I'm loving every minute of it. I think it would be a grave mistake for Stephen to start talking like Thor did before Ragnarok. It didn't help Hemsworth's character at all. I want Strange to be a modern sorcerer whose lines are ACCESSIBLE and so do lots of MCU fans such as myself.

P.S. The male protagonists of Hemingway's works were often very brave and very stoic. I want Cumberbatch's Strange to be those things as well. And I also don't mind that Hemingway "borrowed" words from flowery poets to title his books. Authors do that kind of **** almost all the time. It's what's written between the covers that counts for me.

[Albert1981]

Back in the day, the Marvel writers used to write Strange's dialogue and spells in a very stylized manner because they thought it sounded mysterious and otherworldly. It was a very old fashioned, pulp fiction sort of style. They dropped that approach years ago and just have him speaking like a normal person, which I think makes him a more accessible character.

As for using magic to heal injuries, in theory it's possible but it's not advisable for a host of reasons. As for the Night Nurse character, or Dr. Palmer appearing the next film, we'll see what the MCU writers choose to do.

Well, I'm glad that they did drop that approach. Not because it isn't fun and interesting, but I think it would would alienate and put off a lot of modern readers. Normal is good.

The reason why I asked about healing injuries is because on another message board I lurk on, it was asked why didn't Rhodey just go see Doctor Strange to "cure" his wounds. But by making Strange more powerful, this issue will come up again I believe. That's why I think some rules and limitations on magic should be imposed in the Multiverse of Madness. A magical system would take too long to explain, but I think this issue should be addressed somehow. I wouldn't even be surprised if the "magic has a price" rule appears somehow. It's gotten kind of popular lately (though not on this thread apparently). I'm also curious to see what Feige and Raimi have in store for Dr. Palmer. The delay in the release of Strange 2 has definitely changed things in my opinion and one thing that might have changed is that Clea will not have a prominent role in it.

[Albert1981]

Count me for the "vaguely formal" Strange speech pattern.

I mean, which sounds cooler?"

"I need to cast a mystic shield, or my ass is cooked!" or "Seven rings hath Raggador, from indigo to deepest black. Yet Oshtur grant me something more: The Crimson Bands of Cyttorak!"



Among my friends, we tend to assume money as a motivation unless specifically told otherwise.

I think the first sentence sounds cooler. And I think a lot of movie audiences will like it too!

[DigiCom]

I think the first sentence sounds cooler. And I think a lot of movie audiences will like it too!

We'll have to agree to disagree, then.

[Clea]

Frank Brunner original art for the cover of Master of the Mystic Arts #4, Oct. 1974. This is one of my favorite covers.
(Hopefully my new image hosting platform won't let me down.)

[Albert1981]

We'll have to agree to disagree, then.

I have to admit, I like the second one too. Catchy!

[Albert1981]

Frank Brunner original art for the cover of Master of the Mystic Arts #4, Oct. 1974. This is one of my favorite covers.
(Hopefully my new image hosting platform won't let me down.)

I can see it clearly. Looks great. Kinda looks like Ghost Rider is spitting Stephen out. Thanks for posting. On a related note, do you think it is at all possible that Doctor Strange's personality changed in the first decade of the 2000s not just because of Iron Man's popularity, but because of Gregory House's popularity? Although I wasn't a huge fan of the show, I know House was EXTREMELY popular when it was on the air. I mean, it's gotta be one of the most famous medical dramas of all-time. I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that Marvel took note of Gregory House's notoriety and made Strange behave and talk like him to a CERTAIN EXTENT. I mean, House liked hookers, and Strange obviously doesn't partake in that kind of thing, but Strange's more recent womanizing could have taken a cue from House. Strange is probably less "curmudgeonly and cynical" than House, but I can see why people might compare the two. Misanthropic and unconventional geniuses dedicated to their work.