Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Albert1981]

There's a LOT more to fantasy than that. Everything from Hyboria & Gormenghast to Lankhmar & Melnibone. And that's just the "traditional" fantasy genre.

I guess I'm more of a "mainstream" fantasy fan? So those are my go-to books when it comes to the genre. The reason why I brought up that stuff about the "price of magic" is because the whole concept of magic having a cost is sort of popular now, I think.

The Witcher uses it a lot:

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/12...ic-work-geralt

Shadow & Bone does it too:

https://www.bustle.com/entertainment...fold-explained

It's harder to do this in superhero comic book stories, but I understand why Marvel and DC have sort of "tried" to adopt this trope. And as I mentioned earlier, I REALLY like the fact that of the three main magic users in the MCU, Strange is the only one in it (so far) that had to learn magic without possessing any kind of powers innately. He couldn't use magic so quickly like Loki and Wanda did in their own series because he had to study and train to become a sorcerer. Plus, I sometimes (probably wrongly) think that Strange is a bit like the Green Lanterns. If his "willpower" and/or "confidence" falters, he might not be able to use magic so effectively. Like how some gifted and talented athletes totally CHOKE in big game situations no matter how much they practice because their nerves are shot. In addition to that, for ME, I think that if you can study and learn magic, I assume there must be rules. That's why I favor magical academies or whatever the hell they call them.

[DigiCom]

I guess I'm more of a "mainstream" fantasy fan? So those are my go-to books when it comes to the genre. The reason why I brought up that stuff about the "price of magic" is because the whole concept of magic having a cost is sort of popular now, I think.

The Witcher uses it a lot:

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/12...ic-work-geralt

Shadow & Bone does it too:

https://www.bustle.com/entertainment...fold-explained

It's harder to do this in superhero comic book stories, but I understand why Marvel and DC have sort of "tried" to adopt this trope. And as I mentioned earlier, I REALLY like the fact that of the three main magic users in the MCU, Strange is the only one in it (so far) that had to learn magic without possessing any kind of powers innately. He couldn't use magic so quickly like Loki and Wanda did in their own series because he had to study and train to become a sorcerer. Plus, I sometimes (probably wrongly) think that Strange is a bit like the Green Lanterns. If his "willpower" and/or "confidence" falters, he might not be able to use magic so effectively. Like how some gifted and talented athletes totally CHOKE in big game situations no matter how much they practice because their nerves are shot. In addition to that, for ME, I think that if you can study and learn magic, I assume there must be rules. That's why I favor magical academies or whatever the hell they call them.

There's nothing wrong with magical academies in principle. But you have to realize they are a 19th century approach to the problem: How do you learn magic?

Other approaches include:

Being taught by a knowledgeable member of your tribe/family/village
Itinerant teacher
Self-study
Youtube.

It is not coincidental that these are also the answers to the question "How do you learn to read/write?"

(Indeed, in some cultures, literacy and magic were intertwined. The word "grimoire" which means a book of spells, comes from the same root word as "grammar".)

As for the Green Lantern thing? I find it somewhat reductionist, but then, I've always preferred magic that scales on the adept's knowledge, not his personal power. Part of my problem with sorcerous battles in comics is that they are so often reduced to shields & energy blasts. Magical combat can be SO much more.

[Reviresco]

If I had to guess, I'd say that initially Marvel signed the actors to multi-film contracts so that they could ensure that they'd get the first bunch of films completed while the actors were all still available and age-appropriate. Now that the MCU is so established, they can afford to to start doing more one-off type movies instead of planning multi-movie epics. They likely could get Cumberbatch back on an ad hoc basis with the right script.

I think Cumberbatch would come back, if his schedule permitted. IIRC, he said he enjoyed the role.

I agree mostly. When Marvel Studios was first started, they didn't have the entire Marvel stable of characters, and they were building the brand / characters. So they planned trilogies around what characters they had. Now, they have most of their characters, so they have tons of choices to pick from, and can afford to do just one or two films and then move on to a another character.

[BlackClaw]

Well I just saw the Loki finale. I won’t spoil anything, but **** is about to get real for Stephen.

[Clea]

I think Cumberbatch would come back, if his schedule permitted. IIRC, he said he enjoyed the role.

I agree mostly. When Marvel Studios was first started, they didn't have the entire Marvel stable of characters, and they were building the brand / characters. So they planned trilogies around what characters they had. Now, they have most of their characters, so they have tons of choices to pick from, and can afford to do just one or two films and then move on to a another character.

Even if they do continue to make scaled back multi-film story arcs, there would still be no reason to have Strange show up in most of them. Maybe they could get Cumberbatch back every few years. Who knows?

[Clea]

Well I just saw the Loki finale. I won’t spoil anything, but **** is about to get real for Stephen.

That was a fun season finale. It was a perfect lead in to Multiverse of Madness. I wasn't planning to watch the next Spiderman movie but after watching this episode of Loki, I may change my mind.

[Reviresco]

Even if they do continue to make scaled back multi-film story arcs, there would still be no reason to have Strange show up in most of them. Maybe they could get Cumberbatch back every few years. Who knows?

No, there's not a reason, per se, but with everyone leaving I thought Strange might end up stepping up to a larger role. Especially if they are expanding the magic / horror side of the MCU. And of course, I really wanted a third film.

Well I just saw the Loki finale. I won’t spoil anything, but **** is about to get real for Stephen.

That was a fun season finale. It was a perfect lead in to Multiverse of Madness. I wasn't planning to watch the next Spiderman movie but after watching this episode of Loki, I may change my mind.

Well, I was already excited to watch this as soon as I got home, now I'm doubly so.

[Albert1981]

There's nothing wrong with magical academies in principle. But you have to realize they are a 19th century approach to the problem: How do you learn magic?

Other approaches include:

Being taught by a knowledgeable member of your tribe/family/village
Itinerant teacher
Self-study
Youtube.

It is not coincidental that these are also the answers to the question "How do you learn to read/write?"

(Indeed, in some cultures, literacy and magic were intertwined. The word "grimoire" which means a book of spells, comes from the same root word as "grammar".)

As for the Green Lantern thing? I find it somewhat reductionist, but then, I've always preferred magic that scales on the adept's knowledge, not his personal power. Part of my problem with sorcerous battles in comics is that they are so often reduced to shields & energy blasts. Magical combat can be SO much more.

Yeah, basing magic on one's knowledge is a good approach. But I would like it if magic users mess up sometimes no matter how many times they've practiced. When I had to give presentations for school/work, my mind went blank a few times no matter how many times I went over the material. Not too familiar with Strange, maybe he mispronounced some Latin and/or Sanskrit something and accidentally turned one of his magical allies into a pile of ****. Make him a little more fallible...Sometimes. Characters being TAUGHT magic is something I enjoy. It's more fun to see that kind of thing onscreen in my opinion. Learning by yourself requires more work, but I do think for narrative purposes it's hard for writers to portray. Like in the Sword in the Stone. Merlin was a great tutor for Arthur. One thing I liked about Strange 1 is that the fighting in it wasn't your typical magical "western". Whoever having the quickest mystical "draw" determines who gets to save the day. But maybe budget constraints play a role in these things? I imagine it's pretty expensive to do tons of reality warping in live-action. But yeah, you and Reviresco convinced me that Wong, Strange and Magik are actually horror characters. I guess what I meant by "scary" earlier were movies and shows that are psychological thrillers. They fall into the "suspense" category in my opinion. For ME, horror has to have some grotesque and even macabre elements in it for it to be...Horrifying? Like Wicker Man and Rosemary's Baby. But from what I've read on this thread, Stephen is no stranger to that world? I didn't feel Strange 1 was too blood-curdling to me. I just thought it was some trippy, psychedelic fun. But from the stuff I read about Strange 2, it seems that it's pretty "scary":

https://thedirect.com/article/doctor...l-movies-scary

[Reviresco]

Well I just saw the Loki finale. I won’t spoil anything, but **** is about to get real for Stephen.

That was a fun season finale. It was a perfect lead in to Multiverse of Madness. I wasn't planning to watch the next Spiderman movie but after watching this episode of Loki, I may change my mind.

I saw it and yes, poor Stephen! LOL!

But now they are saying Hiddleston will be in the Doctor Strange movie too. It's getting crowded.

[Clea]

I saw it and yes, poor Stephen! LOL!

But now they are saying Hiddleston will be in the Doctor Strange movie too. It's getting crowded.

I do wonder how much of MoM will be a Doctor Strange story, and how much it will be an Avengers style movie that will have a bazillion 'main' characters. It could be a catch-all film that just happens to feature mystical threats so Strange will end up being the lead character with the other featured heavily. We'll see eventually, as soon as Marvel decides it's time to start leaking teasers to the fans. I'm mainly interested to see if they introduce Clea (and if so what they do with her), and what effect, if any, the movie might have on the comics.

[DigiCom]

Yeah, basing magic on one's knowledge is a good approach. But I would like it if magic users mess up sometimes no matter how many times they've practiced. When I had to give presentations for school/work, my mind went blank a few times no matter how many times I went over the material. Not too familiar with Strange, maybe he mispronounced some Latin and/or Sanskrit something and accidentally turned one of his magical allies into a pile of ****. Make him a little more fallible...Sometimes. Characters being TAUGHT magic is something I enjoy. It's more fun to see that kind of thing onscreen in my opinion. Learning by yourself requires more work, but I do think for narrative purposes it's hard for writers to portray. Like in the Sword in the Stone. Merlin was a great tutor for Arthur. One thing I liked about Strange 1 is that the fighting in it wasn't your typical magical "western". Whoever having the quickest mystical "draw" determines who gets to save the day. But maybe budget constraints play a role in these things? I imagine it's pretty expensive to do tons of reality warping in live-action. But yeah, you and Reviresco convinced me that Wong, Strange and Magik are actually horror characters. I guess what I meant by "scary" earlier were movies and shows that are psychological thrillers. They fall into the "suspense" category in my opinion. For ME, horror has to have some grotesque and even macabre elements in it for it to be...Horrifying? Like Wicker Man and Rosemary's Baby. But from what I've read on this thread, Stephen is no stranger to that world? I didn't feel Strange 1 was too blood-curdling to me. I just thought it was some trippy, psychedelic fun. But from the stuff I read about Strange 2, it seems that it's pretty "scary":

https://thedirect.com/article/doctor...l-movies-scary

It's important to remember two facts when discussing Doctor Strange:

1. The MCU is not the comics!

Let me state that again:

The MCU is not the comics!!!

Movie Strange is not a horror character (yet?). The first film was indeed "trippy, psychedelic fun", but the second film could easily have a different tone (there is precedent, with both Cap & Thor drastically changing after their first & second films, respectively). Nothing in the comics proves or disproves that because (repeat after me...):

"The MCU is not the comics!"

2. In the comics, Stephen's portrayal has changed over time. He's been everything from a fairly grounded occult investigator/exorcist to the closest thing Earth has to a native comsic entity, capable of performing surgery on the embodiment of reality itself. Sometimes he's a spandexy superhero, sometimes a horror character. There is no One True Characterization™.

I saw it and yes, poor Stephen! LOL!

But now they are saying Hiddleston will be in the Doctor Strange movie too. It's getting crowded.

"They" say a lot. Sometimes, "they" even guess right.

I do wonder how much of MoM will be a Doctor Strange story, and how much it will be an Avengers style movie that will have a bazillion 'main' characters. It could be a catch-all film that just happens to feature mystical threats so Strange will end up being the lead character with the other featured heavily. We'll see eventually, as soon as Marvel decides it's time to start leaking teasers to the fans. I'm mainly interested to see if they introduce Clea (and if so what they do with her), and what effect, if any, the movie might have on the comics.

It's possible. I get the feeling the MCU films & TV shows will start interacting more organically, especially since everything (except Spidey) is under one umbrella now. Whether this is the right move or not remains to be seen.

[Digifiend]

Which teacher?

Scarlet Witch. She was found dead in X-Factor #10.

[Clea]

It's important to remember two facts when discussing Doctor Strange:

1. The MCU is not the comics!

Let me state that again:

The MCU is not the comics!!!

Movie Strange is not a horror character (yet?). The first film was indeed "trippy, psychedelic fun", but the second film could easily have a different tone (there is precedent, with both Cap & Thor drastically changing after their first & second films, respectively). Nothing in the comics proves or disproves that because (repeat after me...):

"The MCU is not the comics!"

2. In the comics, Stephen's portrayal has changed over time. He's been everything from a fairly grounded occult investigator/exorcist to the closest thing Earth has to a native comsic entity, capable of performing surgery on the embodiment of reality itself. Sometimes he's a spandexy superhero, sometimes a horror character. There is no One True Characterization™.



"They" say a lot. Sometimes, "they" even guess right.



It's possible. I get the feeling the MCU films & TV shows will start interacting more organically, especially since everything (except Spidey) is under one umbrella now. Whether this is the right move or not remains to be seen.

I agree with you completely that there is no one true characterization of Doctor Strange. He works well in fantasy, horror, cosmic, or just straightforward superhero stories.

So far as the MCU is concerned, to me it seems like a simplified, shinier, kinder version of the MU. The characters are reasonably close AU copies of the comics characters. My concern about Clea is because I've seen online speculation that the MCU version (if indeed there will even be an MCU version) will have a completely different origin from the comics original character. The comics version has essentially been Mephistoed into near oblivion. If the MCU does actually reboot her character in the films, I'm not sure how that would affect the future of the comics character. I don't see why they would want to reboot her origin in the films. All of the other MCU characters' origins have stuck reasonably close to the comics. Still, I've seen enough speculation about it worries me.

[DigiCom]

I agree with you completely that there is no one true characterization of Doctor Strange. He works well in fantasy, horror, cosmic, or just straightforward superhero stories.

So far as the MCU is concerned, to me it seems like a simplified, shinier, kinder version of the MU. The characters are reasonably close AU copies of the comics characters. My concern about Clea is because I've seen online speculation that the MCU version (if indeed there will even be an MCU version) will have a completely different origin from the comics original character. The comics version has essentially been Mephistoed into near oblivion. If the MCU does actually reboot her character in the films, I'm not sure how that would affect the future of the comics character. I don't see why they would want to reboot her origin in the films. All of the other MCU characters' origins have stuck reasonably close to the comics. Still, I've seen enough speculation about it worries me.

I've seen enough incorrect speculation that nothing worries me.

[Clea]

I've seen enough incorrect speculation that nothing worries me.

LOL! That's so true.