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  1. #676
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    That's because modern writers focus too much on WHAT he can do, not WHY.

    There's a lovely issue of ASTRO CITY where we meet the personal assistant of that universe's equivalent to Doctor Strange, the Silver Adept. Without ANY explanation of her power level, we see how she defends reality without being deus-y.



    But Tony Stark? Free pass.
    We know science fiction and fantasy are not treated equally in pop culture! That's just the facts!

  2. #677
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I trust your opinions and knowledge completely when it comes to Strange. I can't wait for your recommendations after this pandemic has passed. I believe you would not be as big a fan of Strange if he didn't follow certain rules and stayed within specific boundaries. I always thought Stephen was a cool character even though I didn't know him too well. And back when I first found out about him he was not a deus ex machina type character. May I ask, when did Marvel come up with this "Dr. Strange is God and magic can do almost anything it's too hard to write whinewhinewhine" perspective? What's so hard about re-reading the classics (Ditko, Englehart, Stern) that you speak of to get inspiration? I don't get it!
    You can find digital comics online, and order practically anything in print over the internet, so I don't know what waiting until the pandemic is over is preventing you from reading the comics now. Merely quoting the opinions of third parties (pro or against the comics) can only tell you so much. For every whiny fanboy who doesn't understand/like Marvel magic or editor who thinks it's hard to write well, I can point you to any number of esteemed writers and artists who love Doctor Strange. Who's right? The ones who whine or the ones who praise? The ones who write the character well, or the ones who fail to write the character well but then blame it on the character (who isn't even real) instead of themselves?

    Strange is undeniably a difficult character to write because he's a uniquely powerful character amongst a host of other characters with superhero powers. That doesn't mean that he is a flawed character or that his abilities need to be changed to make him more like the other characters who aren't Sorcerer Supreme. It also doesn't mean that Marvel magic needs to be changed to ape the world-building rules of completely different fictional settings. Magic is every bit a part of the regular Marvel Universe as gamma rays turning a scientist into a super powered monster, or a spider bite turning a young man into someone who can stick to walls.

    As for you believing that I "would not be as big a fan of Strange if he didn't follow certain rules and stayed within specific boundaries..." I find that it's foolish to assume I know what other people would like or not like based on my own preferences and preconceptions about what is good or bad. For example, I've been reading Marvel comics for years and still for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone likes the Hulk. But comics Hulk has legions of ardent fans. Obviously they see something in the character that I don't. And yet...I like MCU Hulk. Go figure.

    I like magic users. So long as Strange remains within the 'boundaries' of being a magic user according to the generally established setting of the Marvel magical universe, I'm sure I will continue to like the character. I will continue to judge each story on its own storytelling merits. Magic aside, I like Strange as a character as he's been designed on the page. He's an interesting bundle of emotional flaws and strengths, insecurities and overconfidence bordering on arrogance. He's lonely but he pushes people away who get too close. That's an interesting character tic to explore. Most importantly, he's heroic and brave and willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good, so he's an admirable character. He's powerful but doesn't seek power for his own vanity. He seeks power and knowledge to serve others. He's a character who thinks about the nature of reality itself, and good vs evil on a very fundamental, yet monumental way. That fascinates me. He stays up endless nights reading mind bending esoteric books of magic, but he also like hockey and Calvin and Hobbes. Fun.
    Last edited by Clea; 04-22-2021 at 08:10 PM.
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  3. #678
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Stephen Strange is a Calvin and Hobbes fan. From Fantastic Four #374, 2013 (story by Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan).

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  4. #679
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    You can find digital comics online, and order practically anything in print over the internet, so I don't know what waiting until the pandemic is over is preventing you from reading the comics now. Merely quoting the opinions of third parties (pro or against the comics) can only tell you so much. For every whiny fanboy who doesn't understand/like Marvel magic or editor who thinks it's hard to write well, I can point you to any number of esteemed writers and artists who love Doctor Strange. Who's right? The ones who whine or the ones who praise? The ones who write the character well, or the ones who fail to write the character well but then blame it on the character (who isn't even real) instead of themselves?

    Strange is undeniably a difficult character to write because he's a uniquely powerful character amongst a host of other characters with superhero powers. That doesn't mean that he is a flawed character or that his abilities need to be changed to make him more like the other characters who aren't Sorcerer Supreme. It also doesn't mean that Marvel magic needs to be changed to ape the world-building rules of completely different fictional settings. Magic is every bit a part of the regular Marvel Universe as gamma rays turning a scientist into a super powered monster, or a spider bite turning a young man into someone who can stick to walls.

    As for you believing that I "would not be as big a fan of Strange if he didn't follow certain rules and stayed within specific boundaries..." I find that it's foolish to assume I know what other people would like or not like based on my own preferences and preconceptions about what is good or bad. For example, I've been reading Marvel comics for years and still for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone likes the Hulk. But comics Hulk has legions of ardent fans. Obviously they see something in the character that I don't. And yet...I like MCU Hulk. Go figure.

    I like magic users. So long as Strange remains within the 'boundaries' of being a magic user according to the generally established setting of the Marvel magical universe, I'm sure I will continue to like the character. I will continue to judge each story on its own storytelling merits. Magic aside, I like Strange as a character as he's been designed on the page. He's an interesting bundle of emotional flaws and strengths, insecurities and overconfidence bordering on arrogance. He's lonely but he pushes people away who get too close. That's an interesting character tic to explore. Most importantly, he's heroic and brave and willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good, so he's an admirable character. He's powerful but doesn't seek power for his own vanity. He seeks power and knowledge to serve others. He's a character who thinks about the nature of reality itself, and good vs evil on a very fundamental, yet monumental way. That fascinates me. He stays up endless nights reading mind bending esoteric books of magic, but he also like hockey and Calvin and Hobbes. Fun.
    I find that I can't read comic books in their entirety online. I can view a few pages at a time, but I don't have the stamina for entire issues. Same thing with books. I can't read 'em online either for some reason. Internet reading over long periods hurts my eyes actually! I'm very old-fashioned. I like reading the traditional way. So I'll read the books when the pandemic is over. I just posted those comments about Strange being a deus ex machina because they reflected my frustration as to why he can't seem to have a regular ongoing title! He absolutely deserves one! I consider him on par with Marvel heroes like Daredevil, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Moon Knight, Deadpool, Blade and the Silver Surfer. B-List close to being A-List. I must say Cumberbatch's portrayal of him has increased my interest in Stephen tremendously. But from the pages you've posted online here on this thread, he talks SO differently now than he did before. It's like night and day. I personally enjoy his newly quippy nature, but I understand why long-time fans of his might not. I'm a big Hulk fan, but I like the comics version more than the film version. I was a bit disappointed in his portrayal in the last two Avengers movies, but as a whole I like the MCU take on him too. But I'm expecting great things in She-Hulk. I like Ruffalo a lot.

    I think dudes like Strange, Vision and Silver Surfer are EXCEEDINGLY hard to write. They're very thoughtful, sensitive and curious characters. And let's face it, they're WEIRD. Those kinds of personalities don't lend themselves to superhero stories sometimes. Like Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Spider-Man and Wolverine are just born for that kind of thing. How can you write a Gandalf/Merlin like character in the 21st century? It's kinda awkward. But that's Strange to me. He likes hockey?! I figured he'd be more interested in football or baseball to tell you the truth. Maybe he has Russian or Canadian roots or something. I will say this, I am VERY happy to learn that he enjoys Calvin and Hobbes. I've mentioned on other threads how much I enjoyed Watterson's work. I devoured his books as a kid. I was more into his stuff than superhero comics. And the way he disappeared just enhances his mystique. As you can probably tell from my posts, I really REALLY enjoy humor in a very sick and distorted way. I definitely got some of that from Calvin and Hobbes. That's why I don't mind the snarkiness of the MCU. I even call Rhodey "Snark Machine" instead of "War Machine". I will say this, most fantasy fans online that I know of seem to heartily approve of how Strange has been portrayed onscreen. That means something. I think Strange is not only an interesting character, but a fun one too!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-22-2021 at 08:39 PM.

  5. #680
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    Stephen Strange is a Calvin and Hobbes fan. From Fantastic Four #374, 2013 (story by Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan).

    This sounds like the Strange of old. I don't think he talks like that anymore! I feel weird even coming on to this thread. I literally had no interest in fantasy and/or magic up until a year ago. It just never held my attention for long. I always liked technology and crime stories so much more. Hell, I sometimes think even musicals and westerns would be more palatable to audiences today than mystical stuff. Which is weird because I grew up on things like the NeverEnding Story and the Wizard of Oz before I even got to the superhero stuff! But now I'm ALL IN on magic. That's why I've been hassling you for weeks, pumping you for information on mystical things. You know my stance on how Strange could regain his place amongst the top dogs in the Marvel Universe: A new magic system. Just streamline things. I know there's handbooks, but if the writers and editors don't bother to consult them, what's the point of having them? Fantasy writers have been putting in a LOT of effort to make magic more palatable to general audiences by creating more consistency in the books. I don't see why Marvel can't look to them for inspiration.

    I really hope the MCU doesn't go pitch black dark like the comics did at the beginning of this century. That would make me pretty sad. But it seems that they're sorta heading in that direction.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-22-2021 at 08:45 PM.

  6. #681
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    This sounds like the Strange of old. I don't think he talks like that anymore! I feel weird even coming on to this thread. I literally had no interest in fantasy and/or magic up until a year ago. It just never held my attention for long. I always liked technology and crime stories so much more. Hell, I sometimes think even musicals and westerns would be more palatable to audiences today than mystical stuff. Which is weird because I grew up on things like the NeverEnding Story and the Wizard of Oz before I even got to the superhero stuff!
    Perhaps he's talking this way because Peter Parker expects him to. Parker looks up to Strange but finds Strange endlessly mysterious. Strange is fond of Peter, in return. I find the relationship between these two characters to be quite endearing. They're so different that I suspect they find each other to be mutually baffling.

    I expect that once you are able to read the comics, you may enjoy a lot of them. At least I hope so. They're good stories with great characters and many of them are cleverly written with lovely art. You're knowledgeable about writing and fantasy, and clearly interested in the logic behind successful world building and storytelling.
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  7. #682
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    Perhaps he's talking this way because Peter Parker expects him to. Parker looks up to Strange but finds Strange endlessly mysterious. Strange is fond of Peter, in return. I find the relationship between these two characters to be quite endearing. They're so different that I suspect they find each other to be mutually baffling.

    I expect that once you are able to read the comics, you may enjoy a lot of them. At least I hope so. They're good stories with great characters and many of them are cleverly written with lovely art. You're knowledgeable about writing and fantasy, and clearly interested in the logic behind successful world building and storytelling.
    I think the relationship between Strange and Parker in the MCU has the potential to be even more interesting than the one between Stark and Parker. Although Parker is part of the "scientific" world and is a traditional "crime fighter", I can see him being mentored by Stephen. Spider-Man really doesn't understand magic.

    I think once I get to the comics, I will enjoy them. They appeal to my literary tastes. I just get this feeling that Stephen doesn't like using violence to solve problems. I hope this is demonstrated in the comic books. I have some knowledge about writing and fantasy. Not as much as you, but I'm trying to "bone up" on magic before the MoM. To tell you the truth, I'm not a big fan of how Marvel is handling the world-building in its shows thus far. When it comes to the SWORD and Flag Smashers stuff, I feel there's just TOO much exposition going on for my liking. They're very low energy, you know? At least I think so. I like it when the shows focus on Wanda, Vision, Agatha, Falcon, Winter Soldier, "Fake" Captain America and Zemo the most. But I'm not going out on a limb saying these things though. Now, I'm going to bed. Good night!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-22-2021 at 09:31 PM.

  8. #683
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I think the relationship between Strange and Parker in the MCU has the potential to be even more interesting than the one between Stark and Parker. Although Parker is part of the "scientific" world and is a traditional "crime fighter", I can see him being mentored by Stephen. Spider-Man really doesn't understand magic.

    I think once I get to the comics, I will enjoy them. They appeal to my literary tastes. I just get this feeling that Stephen doesn't like using violence to solve problems. I hope this is demonstrated in the comic books. I have some knowledge about writing and fantasy. Not as much as you, but I'm trying to "bone up" on magic before the MoM. To tell you the truth, I'm not a big fan of how Marvel is handling the world-building in its shows thus far. When it comes to the SWORD and Flag Smashers stuff, I feel there's just TOO much exposition going on for my liking. They're very low energy, you know? At least I think so. I like it when the shows focus on Wanda, Vision, Agatha, Falcon, Winter Soldier, "Fake" Captain America and Zemo the most. But I'm not going out on a limb saying these things though. Now, I'm going to bed. Good night!
    Strange prefers to out think his opponents over using violence. So far as the MCU is concerned, I think they're doing a good job of simplifying and paralleling the comics. I'm only half paying attention to Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It's not really working for me for a number of reasons. Wandavision was much more successful, IMO. I thought Marvel did a very good job with Strange's origin story, which I almost didn't see because at the time it was released, I was not at all a fan of Benedict Cumberbatch. The only thing I'd seen him in up to then was the Sherlock series which I loathed. I was dragged by friends to see the Doctor Strange movie. I'm looking forward to see what the MCU does with Strange now that they've got the origin story out of the way.
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  9. #684
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    Strange prefers to out think his opponents over using violence. So far as the MCU is concerned, I think they're doing a good job of simplifying and paralleling the comics. I'm only half paying attention to Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It's not really working for me for a number of reasons. Wandavision was much more successful, IMO. I thought Marvel did a very good job with Strange's origin story, which I almost didn't see because at the time it was released, I was not at all a fan of Benedict Cumberbatch. The only thing I'd seen him in up to then was the Sherlock series which I loathed. I was dragged by friends to see the Doctor Strange movie. I'm looking forward to see what the MCU does with Strange now that they've got the origin story out of the way.
    Well, I'm glad that Strange is not a trigger-happy sorcerer. I didn't think he was, but hearing it from you just confirms it. I liked Falcon and the Winter Soldier fine. It was better than I thought it would be. But yeah, I liked WandaVision more. Maybe it's because I'm just not too interested in the political intrigue/military corruption themes that are pretty prevalent in the Captain America franchise. Despite my frustrations with the fantasy genre and the weird use of magic in it, I've gradually relaxed and let myself enjoy it more without overthinking it.

    I liked WandaVision because of its non-violent nature. Magical stories in the Marvel Universe usually aren't all that gory. I don't believe anybody was "killed" in WandaVision, but quite a few characters met bloody ends in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

    Strange's origin story was good. A bit like Stark's, but I liked it. I don't know much about Cumberbatch. He seems like a good dude. I enjoy his portrayal of Strange. I didn't watch the Sherlock series. You know about my feelings regarding "archaic prose".
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-23-2021 at 03:02 PM.

  10. #685
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Strange's origin story was good. A bit like Stark's, but I liked it. I don't know much about Cumberbatch. He seems like a good dude. I enjoy his portrayal of Strange. I didn't watch the Sherlock series. You know about my feelings regarding "archaic prose".
    The Sherlock series takes place in contemporary London.

  11. #686
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    The Sherlock series takes place in contemporary London.
    No kidding! Holmes living in the 21st century! What an interesting premise. No wonder Clea hated it. Thanks for letting me know.

  12. #687
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    No kidding! Holmes living in the 21st century! What an interesting premise. No wonder Clea hated it. Thanks for letting me know.
    I didn't mind that the Sherlock series had a contemporary setting. I just disliked Cumberbatch's portrayal of Holmes. His Holmes seemed like an arrogant jerk and I thought his performance was really over the top. I didn't stick around to see if it was the writing or the acting. It quite put me off wanting to see this actor in any other role though. My friends couldn't believe that I was going to skip the Doctor Strange movie because of Cumberbatch so they dragged me to see it. I've subsequently seen him in many other roles and enjoyed all of them. I still have no plans to ever watch Sherlock, though.
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  13. #688
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    I didn't mind that the Sherlock series had a contemporary setting. I just disliked Cumberbatch's portrayal of Holmes. His Holmes seemed like an arrogant jerk and I thought his performance was really over the top. I didn't stick around to see if it was the writing or the acting. It quite put me off wanting to see this actor in any other role though. My friends couldn't believe that I was going to skip the Doctor Strange movie because of Cumberbatch so they dragged me to see it. I've subsequently seen him in many other roles and enjoyed all of them. I still have no plans to ever watch Sherlock, though.
    Oh I see. I'm glad you warmed to Cumberbatch. Every performer is entitled to some stinkers. I think Cumberbatch is a fine actor and he does Strange justice. It's funny how Marvel Studios has turned performers who were mired in mediocrity for a long time and made them into bonafide stars. They're great at casting actors and actresses. So give Feige props there.

    I just watched the PBS documentary on L. Frank Baum. Wow. That dude had an incredible imagination. The documentary mentioned how he was into theosophy and the occult. He was even interested in astral projection! I liked how he used simple American prose to write his Oz stories and the show explicitly described how Oz was imbued with magic, but Dorothy and her friends hardly used any magic on their quest to get home and brains, hearts and courage. That's a fantasy story that was really well-constructed!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-23-2021 at 08:59 PM.

  14. #689
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Oh I see. I'm glad you warmed to Cumberbatch. Every performer is entitled to some stinkers. I think Cumberbatch is a fine actor and he does Strange justice. It's funny how Marvel Studios has turned performers who were mired in mediocrity for a long time and made them into bonafide stars. They're great at casting actors and actresses. So give Feige props there.
    Well, it's not like Benedict was an obscure choice. He'd already done several movies, including an Academy-award nomination for his role as Alan Turing in The Imitation Game. Frankly, a lot of people suggested him in the role, due to his on-screen persona and cheekbones.

  15. #690
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Well, it's not like Benedict was an obscure choice. He'd already done several movies, including an Academy-award nomination for his role as Alan Turing in The Imitation Game. Frankly, a lot of people suggested him in the role, due to his on-screen persona and cheekbones.
    I gotta watch more current movies. I don't do that as much as I used to. The last film that I really liked was guess what...A fantasy dramedy (Midnight in Paris)! I don't recall Cumberbatch being in any movies that I remember watching besides the Marvel stuff. He's a funny dude.

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