Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Albert1981]

Dude. These shows and movies aren't about rules. You don't have to know the rules of physics or quantum mechanics or biology to watch Apollo 13. You don't have to know the rules of boxing to watch Raging Bull.

Strange knows how to use runes, because he studies and practices magic. Runes aren't the sole domain of witches or warlocks, nor are they passed down in families, restricted to certain DNA. I mean, that wasn't even in the show, IIRC. And like what exactly IS a witch or warlock?? Aren't they all just magic users? Runes are at the basic level, writing. So, it's a written spell.

Sure. I understand that. I love movies like the Hustler and Paths of Glory and I don't know much about pool and military justice. But Endgame, Loki and What If spent literally HOURS talking about the mechanics of time travel and alternate realities, and from what I read online a LOT of people still don't understand what the difference between timelines and universes in the MCU. If the MCU is gonna be doing this multiverse stuff in the future, I think it's important that it has somewhat easy to understand rules to make sure things don't get out of control. I actually really enjoyed how Quantum Leap and Bill & Ted handled this kind of thing (and in a REALLY humorous way I might add). I don't feel the same way about the MCU, unfortunately. But that's just my HUMBLE opinion. I have read numerous comments online that viewers just didn't understand the whole "timeline" stuff from the MCU. They might as well have been trying to comprehend the works of Heisenberg, Planck, Einstein and Hawking unfortunately. I was actually one of them myself, but I did some reading on MCU multiverses, so I'm sort of up to the speed on this stuff, but I imagine some audience members just gave up. Which is something I don't think Marvel Studios could possibly desire.

You're actually probably absolutely right in saying that magic users in general know how to use runes. You have to forgive my almost complete ignorance about written and spoken spells in fiction. As you've seen in my previous comments on these matters, I'm kinda ignorant when it comes to comic book mysticism. I'm grateful that you, DigiCom and Clea have been REALLY patient in explaining these aspects of magical storytelling to me. To me, I just think seeing calligraphy written in the sky glowing like beacons looks incredible!

[Albert1981]

I don't mind multiversal/time travel stories per se. But I'm not a fan of how the MCU is going about it. I think there's a reason why a substantial portion of MCU fans prefer Infinity War over Endgame. And the time travel/multiverse aspect of the latter film probably is the reason why. I think WAY more fans of the LOTR trilogy prefer the Return of the King versus the first two movies. So it's weird how opinion is divided for those two closely connected Marvel movies. I just thought it was silly that Endgame had "future" Thanos being killed and then past Thanos dying later on. Or how "future" Nebula killed "past" Nebula. Or how "past" Loki escaped with the Tesseract AFTER "future" Loki died in Infinity War. Same thing with "past" Gamora escaping her timeline to join the one her "future" version died in. I just thought it was too much for a lot of fans to absorb. The Captain Americas fighting each other was fun though.

I do see how Marvel Studios would want to use multiverses though. Since so much of their IPs were dispersed at other studios, they might need multiverses to integrate AND separate the universes of different studios. And I do think since the "fate of the universe" was already dealt with in Phase 3, Marvel Studios needs to up the stakes by placing all the universes "in all of reality" in jeopardy in future stories. And I appreciate the time travel in the MCU is actually MORE logical than in other franchises and that changing your past can't change your future. I just don't think they've done a good enough job of explaining these things to general audiences. I personally believe the success of using fan service and nostalgia in Avengers 4 and No Way Home sort of papered over these things (in a really great way I might add).

[Clea]

... I have read numerous comments online that viewers just didn't understand the "timeline" stuff from the MCU. They might as well have been trying to comprehend the works of Heisenberg, Planck, Einstein and Hawking unfortunately. ...

I don't think that one needs to understand classical or quantum physics at a deep level to understand the Marvel multiverse. Just think of it as a shiny, fun, cartoon version of known science. An infinite number of dimensions/universes exist. Some of them are almost identical to 'our' Marvel universe. Others are very different. Some of these other universes have almost identical versions of the same Marvel characters. Some have very different versions of the same characters. Time travel is possible, both forward and backwards. Marvel superheroes and villains can travel to other universes and travel through time using advanced science or magic. It is dangerous to do though, and can lead to our reality being destroyed if something goes wrong. Of course things will go wrong and havoc will result because that makes for fun, exciting stories. That's all you need to know. If you try to overthink it you'll just end up confused because it isn't real and the writers just make up whatever they feel like as they go along if they think they'll get a banging good story out of it. The end.

The main responsibility of the Sorcerer Supreme is to protect our universe/dimension from evil, magical/supernatural beings from other universes/dimensions who threaten our reality. I'm expecting in the next movie that Strange will be encountering other dimensional beings and several, alternate multiverse versions of characters from our universe. Since Raimi is directing, I expect it will be visually zany and wild. Even though it does sound to be crowded with characters, I am hoping that Strange carries the story and doesn't get lost in all the razzle dazzle. I don't think this movie will be the end of the multiverse/time travel stories in the phase 4 MCU releases. Therefore, I don't expect that it will end with Strange permanently fixing the multiverse.

[John Venus]

I think people were confused at first, especially with Endgame. But I think that between Loki and NWH people are starting to understand how the Marvel Multiverse and time travel works and the possibilities that variants and alternate timelines open up. Plus, only very specific movies and shows are going to be dealing with time travel and the Multiverse. The rest of the MCU are going to be dealing with their own stuff. Shang Chi, Eternals, Hawkeye and Falcon&theWS are all divorced from that stuff.

[Albert1981]

I don't think that one needs to understand classical or quantum physics at a deep level to understand the Marvel multiverse. Just think of it as a shiny, fun, cartoon version of known science. An infinite number of dimensions/universes exist. Some of them are almost identical to 'our' Marvel universe. Others are very different. Some of these other universes have almost identical versions of the same Marvel characters. Some have very different versions of the same characters. Time travel is possible, both forward and backwards. Marvel superheroes and villains can travel to other universes and travel through time using advanced science or magic. It is dangerous to do though, and can lead to our reality being destroyed if something goes wrong. Of course things will go wrong and havoc will result because that makes for fun, exciting stories. That's all you need to know. If you try to overthink it you'll just end up confused because it isn't real and the writers just make up whatever they feel like as they go along if they think they'll get a banging good story out of it. The end.

The main responsibility of the Sorcerer Supreme is to protect our universe/dimension from evil, magical/supernatural beings from other universes/dimensions who threaten our reality. I'm expecting in the next movie that Strange will be encountering other dimensional beings and several, alternate multiverse versions of characters from our universe. Since Raimi is directing, I expect it will be visually zany and wild. Even though it does sound to be crowded with characters, I am hoping that Strange carries the story and doesn't get lost in all the razzle dazzle. I don't think this movie will be the end of the multiverse/time travel stories in the phase 4 MCU releases. Therefore, I don't expect that it will end with Strange permanently fixing the multiverse.

Marvel Studios should hire you to explain these science fiction concepts to general audiences. You did a WAY better job than they did! I don't think the multiverse/time travel stories will conclude with MoM either. The earliest that happens might be in Ant-Man 3 or Loki 2. I do believe that Strange 2 might be banking on "nostalgia" like they apparently did in NWH. I just wanna great Strange movie. It's been six years since we last got one.

I still believe that Derrickson wanted to make MoM into a fully-fledged HORROR movie. But that might not have been as commercially successful as a typical SUPERHERO movie. That's why Feige downplayed the scary elements of Strange 2 (allegedly). I was really surprised to learn that Derrickson was drawn to the Strange comic books because of their "gothic" and "horrific" nature:



From what I've read online, MANY Strange fans are STILL pretty salty that the MoM is not the "horror movie" that they were promised a couple of years ago. I believe even YOU mentioned being disappointed by that.

[Albert1981]

I think people were confused at first, especially with Endgame. But I think that between Loki and NWH people are starting to understand how the Marvel Multiverse and time travel works and the possibilities that variants and alternate timelines open up. Plus, only very specific movies and shows are going to be dealing with time travel and the Multiverse. The rest of the MCU are going to be dealing with their own stuff. Shang Chi, Eternals, Hawkeye and Falcon&theWS are all divorced from that stuff.

Yeah, it's nice that the MCU is telling different kinds of stories. But the problem is that I'm not a fan of their "grounded" tales either! I do like Hawkeye though because it's a show that's TRYING to have fun. But the LARPing stuff does slow things down DRAMATICALLY.

[Albert1981]

Was surprised to find out that one of Derrickson's favorite horror flicks is the Canadian cult classic The Changeling. Not nearly as popular as other haunted house films like Poltergeist, the Shining and the Haunting, but it's actually one of the few horror movies I enjoy. Definitely scary in a non-cheesy way. Maybe it's because I'm a fan of George C. Scott, Melvyn Douglas and Trish van Devere? These seasoned actors/actresses really grounded The Changeling. It's a horror movie AND a murder mystery at the same time. I enjoyed the psychological and spatial terror that was employed by director Peter Medak. It doesn't rely on visual effects, gore or jump scares at all. I would have loved to have seen Stephen Strange (and Clea) immersed in a scary and atmospheric horror movie, but I don't think Marvel Studios will EVER allow that to happen:



At least The Changeling is considered to be "cinema". Spielberg, Scorsese and Del Toro all love it. If Derrickson had been allowed to make the MoM like The Changeling that would have been so great!

[Clea]

Was surprised to find out that one of Derrickson's favorite horror flicks is the Canadian cult classic The Changeling. Not nearly as popular as other haunted house films like Poltergeist, the Shining and the Haunting, but it's actually one of the few horror movies I enjoy. Definitely scary in a non-cheesy way. Maybe it's because I'm a fan of George C. Scott, Melvyn Douglas and Trish van Devere? These seasoned actors/actresses really grounded The Changeling. It's a horror movie AND a murder mystery at the same time. I enjoyed the psychological and spatial terror that was employed by director Peter Medak. It doesn't rely on visual effects, gore or jump scares at all. I would have loved to have seen Stephen Strange (and Clea) immersed in a scary and atmospheric horror movie, but I don't think Marvel Studios will EVER allow that to happen:

...

At least The Changeling is considered to be "cinema". Spielberg, Scorsese and Del Toro all love it. If Derrickson had been allowed to make the MoM like The Changeling that would have been so great!

The Changling is in a 3-way tie for my favorite movie ghost story (the other two being the Robert Wise version of The Haunting, and The Innocents). I'm not surprised to hear that Derrickson admires it. It's a tight story, beautifully filmed, with a great cast and a haunting, uncompromising ending that packs quite an emotional punch without being gory.

I'll always be sad that we didn't get to see Derrickson's planned Doctor Strange sequel, but Marvel wanted an event tie-in film which Derrickson was not interested in making. Let's just hope we end up with a fun Marvel event film that allows Strange to actually do more than just generate mandala-style protect spells and magical energy bolts. We'll see. Maybe one day in the future Derrickson will come back and make the Doctor Strange film he had in mind. That would be something to look forward to.

[GenericUsername]

I got the new Book of the Vishanti and it's a nice updated handbook. With all new lore and characters in it.

[Albert1981]

Nice to hear you got your hands on the Book of the Vishanti! Perhaps it will play a role in future Marvel movies.

I'm surprised Clea has actually heard of The Changeling! It's definitely somewhat of an obscure work. Widely respected though. It was definitely a "smart" horror flick. And I didn't think Derrickson would like it so much. Funny that the Innocents was mentioned by Clea here as well. Derrickson loves that film too:



It's funny how horror is a genre that is not just popular in the United States (like country music is). There's all sorts of folklore all across the globe and many cultures have frightening stories that have been passed down from generation to generation.

[Albert1981]

I recently discovered a horror/mystery movie called Picnic at Hanging Rock recently on TCM. I had some vague awareness that it was an important film in Australian cinematic history, but I only watched it recently. It's a picture I normally wouldn't like because of its indie and "art house" nature (I usually watch more mainstream stuff). And I almost never watch foreign movies. But I really enjoyed what director Peter Weir and cinematographer Russell Boyd did with this film. The reason why? Because when I had to take a leak while watching the movie and when I paused it (I recorded it), I was disappointed I was already more than halfway through! It's slowly paced, but I didn't feel it dragged at all. It was great BECAUSE it was so "moody, unsettling and enigmatic." Not to mention it being "visually mesmerizing" and having WONDERFUL music:




Why am I bringing this up in a Doctor Strange thread? I think Stephen would be right at home in a "gothic" context. I used to think of him as a typical magical superhero, but lately I've been seeing him more as a horror character. I'm definitely disappointed that MoM will not be a horror film (a genre I'm not even that fond of)! I used to mock Strange fans for getting bent out of shape for complaining about Strange 2 not being the psychological horror film that they were promised. But I definitely understand their saltiness now. The Doctor would be totally in his element solving magical mysteries like in Picnic at Hanging Rock.

[Clea]

I got the new Book of the Vishanti and it's a nice updated handbook. With all new lore and characters in it.

Do you know how much of the content overlaps with 'The Mysterious World of Doctor Strange'? Is it 50% same content/different illustrations? More? Less? I'll probably end up getting it, but I might wait a while.

[GenericUsername]

Do you know how much of the content overlaps with 'The Mysterious World of Doctor Strange'? Is it 50% same content/different illustrations? More? Less? I'll probably end up getting it, but I might wait a while.

It's art and page style is completely different but it goes into artifacts, other sorcerers, apprentices and all that. So it's typical for a handbook style book. Just updated.

[Clea]

It's art and page style is completely different but it goes into artifacts, other sorcerers, apprentices and all that. So it's typical for a handbook style book. Just updated.

Thanks! I'm sure I'll pick it up as soon as I can.

[Albert1981]

Have any of you on this thread ever watched the Italian cult horror film, Suspiria? I understand that it's one of Derrickson's favorite horror flicks and has influenced his thinking about the genre a lot:

https://ew.com/movies/2017/10/06/sus...tt-derrickson/

I've heard that the Doctor Strange comics recently have been influenced by Dario Argento's works and their surreal, dreamlike nature:

https://screenrant.com/doctor-strang...logy-suspiria/

Funny how the comic books and creators of the first Strange movie are gravitating to similar horror influences while the MoM is going in a totally different direction! Wish Derrickson stayed on. His sequel would have definitely lined up more with the comic books!