Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Daedra]

I'm not fond of the "equivalence principle" in comics, because it breaks down under close scrutiny.

Say you don't want to raise the dead. You just want to make a door close dramatically. What's the "cost" of closing a door? Will somewhere out in the vast multiverse a door open by itself? Or will you later have to eat a worm? (Which was Aaron's approach... the cost of magic is a weird diet. *rolls eyes*)

I'm reminded of a rule someone came up with that "Magic cannot duplicate what science has created". Which means that Strange couldn't cast the equivalent of a simple Lumos spell to light up a room, because flashlights exist....

Great observation, and regarding your latest comment, that’s coming from the storyline where Wong had a brain cancer but it was totally ignored because it didn’t really make any sense, in truth a growing science would expand magic as well......think about new kind of spells able to affect internet, new spells affecting iPhones, quantum magic or spells affecting Einstein’s relativity ( Stephen did use such a spell to create a black hole, another time he used spells directly affecting magnetic fields etc...).

[Clea]

For those looking for an analysis of how magic worked and the magical milieu of Doc's world, I cant recommend cat yronwode's Lesser Book of the Vishanti enough. http://www.luckymojo.com/vishanti.html

cat was a frequent contributor to Doc's letter pages in the 60s and 70s and became an excellent and prolific comic editor (primarily at Eclipse) in the 80s. She was also somewhat of an expert in real world occultism and witchcraft folklore, and did a deep dive analysis of Doc's magical world in fanzine's and comic feature magazines over the years all of which is compiled on the site linked (it's been in recommended links post by the OP for the past few iterations of the appreciation thread sine I brought it up several incantations of this thread ago. It's a bit out of date, as it only covers material form the 60s through the early 80s, but that is the foundational stuff upon which Doc's world is built. Later retcons of that stuff is not included. But what makes it interesting is that she parallels it with some of the real world occult systems to give it some context and logic in how it might work as a system, not just random whims of characters or writers. It looks at the spells, artifacts, cosmic and magical entities and the rules/guidelines that bind them and shape their existence and use.

It was used as a reference by a couple of Marvel editors for a bit, but later writers and editors chose to ignore it and make changes that for me, have mostly been missteps and led to the belief that Doc's magic was simple deus ex machina and unwritable, which in turn led to decisions like magic must have a price, etc.

-M

I agree. Cat Yronwode's luckymojo site is a great resource because she lines up the parallels between Marvel magic and real world magic/occult practices to show how you could build a template or framework for Marvel magic to might make it feel less random to some readers.

[DigiCom]

Stephen did use such a spell to create a black hole, another time he used spells directly affecting magnetic fields etc...).

I remember that one! I think that might have been the first time Stephen Hawking was ever invoked in a magic spell.

[Clea]

That would be “equivalence magic” and it’s just one of many types of magic, it would make sense for spell performed within the boundaries of our entropic driven universe but keep in mind that the heavy price paid by one can easily be diluted into the minute price paid by many. Extra-dimensional magic would for obvious reasons break any equivalent rule but require a greater degree of knowledge and discipline imo.

I'm not fond of the "equivalence principle" in comics, because it breaks down under close scrutiny.

Say you don't want to raise the dead. You just want to make a door close dramatically. What's the "cost" of closing a door? Will somewhere out in the vast multiverse a door open by itself? Or will you later have to eat a worm? (Which was Aaron's approach... the cost of magic is a weird diet. *rolls eyes*)

I'm reminded of a rule someone came up with that "Magic cannot duplicate what science has created". Which means that Strange couldn't cast the equivalent of a simple Lumos spell to light up a room, because flashlights exist....

I also dislike the equivalency principle. To put it in real world terms, it would be like a fireman putting out a fire at your house, but then burning your neighbor's house down as some sort of karmic payback for saving your house. The consequence of performing any action (magical or not) is what you do with the situation and choices you face as a result of that action. If Strange uses magic to save someone's life, that individual now has the opportunity to continue living a life filled with endless choices to perform acts that may be neutral, good, or bad. It's sort of like the butterfly effect. You can't see the forward consequences of your actions. Your use of magic now may result in something really terrific, or something really awful on down the road.

As I see it, the 'cost' of doing magic is what it does to the magic user themselves. Will your use of magic make you a better, more compassionate person, or will it corrupt you and make you a worse person? What do you gain and what do you lose? To put it in D&D terms, maybe you just end up chaotic neutral: powerful but unpredictable and unallied with anyone other than yourself. In the context of the Marvel magical universe, once you become aware that there are vast, malign magical entities out there, what do you do with that knowledge? How much of your own life are you willing to sacrifice to oppose these forces? To become the Sorcerer Supreme means sacrificing 100% of your 'normal' life. Is it worth it?

[Albert1981]

That would be “equivalence magic” and it’s just one of many types of magic, it would make sense for spell performed within the boundaries of our entropic driven universe but keep in mind that the heavy price paid by one can easily be diluted into the minute price paid by many. Extra-dimensional magic would for obvious reasons break any equivalent rule but require a greater degree of knowledge and discipline imo.

Oh, so there's a term for this concept. Thank you so much for sharing it with me. I guess it's more like a "balance" than a "cost" as you put it.

[Phoenixx9]

I also dislike the equivalency principle. To put it in real world terms, it would be like a fireman putting out a fire at your house, but then burning your neighbor's house down as some sort of karmic payback for saving your house. The consequence of performing any action (magical or not) is what you do with the situation and choices you face as a result of that action. If Strange uses magic to save someone's life, that individual now has the opportunity to continue living a life filled with endless choices to perform acts that may be neutral, good, or bad. It's sort of like the butterfly effect. You can't see the forward consequences of your actions. Your use of magic now may result in something really terrific, or something really awful on down the road.

As I see it, the 'cost' of doing magic is what it does to the magic user themselves. Will your use of magic make you a better, more compassionate person, or will it corrupt you and make you a worse person? What do you gain and what do you lose? To put it in D&D terms, maybe you just end up chaotic neutral: powerful but unpredictable and unallied with anyone other than yourself. In the context of the Marvel magical universe, once you become aware that there are vast, malign magical entities out there, what do you do with that knowledge? How much of your own life are you willing to sacrifice to oppose these forces? To become the Sorcerer Supreme means sacrificing 100% of your 'normal' life. Is it worth it?

That is the way I see it in Marvel comics as well.

The one doing the magic is the one who takes the "chance" and the "consequence" for the action done with the magic.


Example:
If someone uses magic to save someone else from dying, then the "good" or "bad" consequence of that save is on the sorcerer (In this case, it is a "good" thing, even if the person saved goes on to do bad).

The one saved may not be appreciative of life renewed and decide to go on a destructive rampage----which those deeds then fall on the saved one----not the sorcerer who saved him. (Because all actions have consequences, and in this case the actions were done by the saved person, not the sorcerer.)

[Daedra]

I also dislike the equivalency principle. To put it in real world terms, it would be like a fireman putting out a fire at your house, but then burning your neighbor's house down as some sort of karmic payback for saving your house. The consequence of performing any action (magical or not) is what you do with the situation and choices you face as a result of that action. If Strange uses magic to save someone's life, that individual now has the opportunity to continue living a life filled with endless choices to perform acts that may be neutral, good, or bad. It's sort of like the butterfly effect. You can't see the forward consequences of your actions. Your use of magic now may result in something really terrific, or something really awful on down the road.

As I see it, the 'cost' of doing magic is what it does to the magic user themselves. Will your use of magic make you a better, more compassionate person, or will it corrupt you and make you a worse person? What do you gain and what do you lose? To put it in D&D terms, maybe you just end up chaotic neutral: powerful but unpredictable and unallied with anyone other than yourself. In the context of the Marvel magical universe, once you become aware that there are vast, malign magical entities out there, what do you do with that knowledge? How much of your own life are you willing to sacrifice to oppose these forces? To become the Sorcerer Supreme means sacrificing 100% of your 'normal' life. Is it worth it?

You are definitely right, and let me add : the first cost of magic would be the same cost science has..... meaning the time spent to study its theory and then his application.
The practice of magic is called the mystic arts for a reason, what is the cost of art? skill.... state of mind.... creativity.... vision.... predisposition?
Some magics require enlightenment, other magics require an evil soul.....other magics total detachment , all of these for sure ask for tremendous amount of discipline and will. The cost is there all right but it is not something your common earth citizen can even begin to appreciate.

[Daedra]

I'm quite a fan of Zatanna's explanation:

[DigiCom]

I'm quite a fan of Zatanna's explanation:

Oh, I like that... where's it from?

[Daedra]

Oh, I like that... where's it from?

Detective comics 960

[Eto]

I wanna help you answer this questions because I'm a Doctor Strange nerd, have a look at these:

Thanks?
Which comic run/issue? I'm planning to read classic Strange stories soon anyways, but I'm curious now.

[Daedra]

Thanks?
Which comic run/issue? I'm planning to read classic Strange stories soon anyways, but I'm curious now.

that's Claremont's run:
first picture Doctor Strange 45 v1
second picture Doctor Strange 42 v1

also check this is out (this was mentioned by Clea):

strange tales 151

[Clea]

Even the Sorcerer Supreme has to pay his taxes. From Stan Lee Meets Doctor Strange.

[Albert1981]

I think if magic is left unregulated, stories, and thus the world will break. How are you supposed to have any sort of conflict if they're some dudes that can warp reality so it simply doesn’t exist? I believe having a hard magic system immerses readers and makes the world more believable. When magic is used to resolve threats, readers won't feel as anxious because of the assumption that magic could be used to intervene. I'm not sure how the MCU will deal with this issue in the Multiverse of Madness!

[Clea]

I think if magic is left unregulated, stories, and thus the world will break. How are you supposed to have any sort of conflict if they're some dudes that can warp reality so it simply doesn’t exist? I believe having a hard magic system immerses readers and makes the world more believable. When magic is used to resolve threats, readers won't feel as anxious because of the assumption that magic could be used to intervene. I'm not sure how the MCU will deal with this issue in the Multiverse of Madness!

What if the story context is entirely magic-centric? Say it involves magic user vs magic user to solve a magic-induced threat, rather than magic used against a non-magic character to resolve a non-magical threat?