Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Clea]

Sounds like a good system to me. Makes sense. I will say this. I think magic has to have limits or it will utterly ruin stories. And I think this is something that famous fantasy authors such as Le Guin and Tolkien understood.

All good fantasy writers do proper world building and lay out their own internal rules either through exposition dumps or by showing an action and the consequences of that action. It's hard to do too much pure exposition in a comic because of the limited page count, but also because so much of the story is imparted through the art as well as through the characters' words and editorial comments. Marvel does its best. They have made writer guidelines before (referenced here in this thread) but the problem happens when writers just use the characters to do some badass hand-wavy stuff to score a plot point of some kind. Pretty soon you end up with all of the magic users being interchangeable. If a writer just wants to use any random magic user in their story, pretty soon it seems like all the magic users can fly, turn invisible, teleport, travel in alternate dimensions. have cool magical laser beam hands, read minds, fight gods, etc. Every writer wants their character to be the most powerful at whatever they do, in the context of the story they're writing, even if amping up a character in one story might not make sense for the character overall. It gets to be an annoying mess, so I understand your interest in having Marvel lay out some rules and guidance on who can do what. It's a good idea, so long as you understand that not all of the magic users are the same. Strange has different skills and abilities from Wanda who in turn has access to a different level of magical energy than Agatha, but who lacks Agatha's centuries of study and mastery, etc.

Who knows? Now that Marvel has made Strange such a prominent character in this current phase of the MCU, perhaps they'll come out with an updated Marvel Tarot or some other sort of guide to the Marvel magical universe that will provide a framework for their writers and the fans.

[Phoenixx9]

there is nothing to worry, anyone is entitled to his own opinion and sharing ideas is the purpose of these boards.



Magic needs to have the same limits science has in the marvel universe and that limit is KNOWLEDGE, If it is good enough for science it is also good enough for magic, Tony Stark and Reed Richards science is no different than Stephen Strange magic in the way it is used and impacts stories.

Quite true, Daedra.

I would also say Power would play a part.

So for example, to stop time, not only would a sorcerer need to know a spell (Knowledge), if that would even be possible to do (Knowledge), the outcomes of doing such a thing and things to watch out for (Knowledge) and lastly the power to do it (Power).

[Daedra]

Quite true, Daedra.

I would also say Power would play a part.

So for example, to stop time, not only would a sorcerer need to know a spell (Knowledge), if that would even be possible to do (Knowledge), the outcomes of doing such a thing and things to watch out for (Knowledge) and lastly the power to do it (Power).

of course, availability of sufficient power sources/resources should be the second limiting factor once the knowledge requirement is satisfied, thank you Phoenixx9

[Albert1981]

there is nothing to worry, anyone is entitled to his own opinion and sharing ideas is the purpose of these boards.



Magic needs to have the same limits science has in the marvel universe and that limit is KNOWLEDGE, If it is good enough for science it is also good enough for magic, Tony Stark and Reed Richards science is no different than Stephen Strange magic in the way it is used and impacts stories.

Yes, I think KNOWLEDGE is indeed key to these fantasy stories. I wish more magical characters were portrayed as "smart". Scientists in the superhero genre are portrayed as geniuses, but sorcerers and witches are somehow less intelligent despite years of study? I know Stephen is regarded as highly intelligent, but I think it is largely because of his advanced medical background. I don't recall Clea, Voodoo, Loki, Zatanna, the Doctor Fates, Raven, Scarlet Witch, Agatha and Spectre ever being portrayed as being "brilliant". Just "mystical" and "exotic". I guess that's why I enjoyed MacGyver and Quantum Leap so much as a kid growing up. MacGyver and Beckett used their intelligence to win their battles (and I think that had something to do with their scientific backgrounds). You're right, if magicians used their brains as well as their hands to win fights, I think I would like them more. Gandalf and Saruman were a bit like this. I don't feel the same way about Loki, Agatha and Wanda though. I do think Strange is a genius, however! Oh, and thanks for the warm comments dude!

[Daedra]

Yes, I think KNOWLEDGE is indeed key to these fantasy stories. I wish more magical characters were portrayed as "smart". Scientists in the superhero genre are portrayed as geniuses, but sorcerers and witches are somehow less intelligent despite years of study? I know Stephen is regarded as highly intelligence, but I think it is largely because of his advanced medical background. I don't recall Clea, Voodoo, Loki, Zatanna, the Doctor Fates, Raven, Scarlet Witch, Agatha and Spectre ever being portrayed as being "sharp". Just "mystical" and "exotic". I guess that's why I enjoyed MacGyver and Quantum Leap so much as a kid growing up. MacGyver and Beckett used their intelligence to win their battles (and I think that had something to do with their scientific backgrounds). You're right, if magicians used their brains as well as their hands to win fights, I think I would like them more. Gandalf and Saruman were a bit like this. I don't feel the same way about Loki, Agatha and Wanda though. I do think Strange is a genius, however! Oh, and thanks for the warm comments dude!

I'm glad you are here to have a conversation with ....... I really enjoy it

[Albert1981]

I'm glad you are here to have a conversation with ....... I really enjoy it

We're having a lot of fun aren't we? This Strange thread is certainly getting some action now!

[Daedra]

We're having a lot of fun aren't we? This Strange thread is certainly getting some action now!

exactly, what's important is keeping the flame of magic alive, I'm totally hoping for a new series as the next movie approaches.

[Albert1981]

All good fantasy writers do proper world building and lay out their own internal rules either through exposition dumps or by showing an action and the consequences of that action. It's hard to do too much pure exposition in a comic because of the limited page count, but also because so much of the story is imparted through the art as well as through the characters' words and editorial comments. Marvel does its best. They have made writer guidelines before (referenced here in this thread) but the problem happens when writers just use the characters to do some badass hand-wavy stuff to score a plot point of some kind. Pretty soon you end up with all of the magic users being interchangeable. If a writer just wants to use any random magic user in their story, pretty soon it seems like all the magic users can fly, turn invisible, teleport, travel in alternate dimensions. have cool magical laser beam hands, read minds, fight gods, etc. Every writer wants their character to be the most powerful at whatever they do, in the context of the story they're writing, even if amping up a character in one story might not make sense for the character overall. It gets to be an annoying mess, so I understand your interest in having Marvel lay out some rules and guidance on who can do what. It's a good idea, so long as you understand that not all of the magic users are the same. Strange has different skills and abilities from Wanda who in turn has access to a different level of magical energy than Agatha, but who lacks Agatha's centuries of study and mastery, etc.

Who knows? Now that Marvel has made Strange such a prominent character in this current phase of the MCU, perhaps they'll come out with an updated Marvel Tarot or some other sort of guide to the Marvel magical universe that will provide a framework for their writers and the fans.

Yeah, I think if Marvel came out with some handbook to explain magic, that would be great. There would be no need for exposition dumps then. Just refer to that "instruction manual" for information about Marvel mysticism, you know? But then again, a lot of readers are LAZY, so they probably won't go for that. I do understand each magic user is different and I like it that way. I don't want them to be interchangeable either. That would be so boring. I will say that certainly one of the biggest pitfalls of fantasy writers is having magic be a very clear "whatever the author requires at that moment" device. It's totally understandable if readers find it most annoying when either the writer sets up a situation where the reader spend the entire novel wondering why magic isn't just used to solve it, or a novel contains some desperate struggle against overwhelming odds, only to have magic come out of nowhere in the final act and clear almost everything up. These kinds of problems affect all genres, but for magic it can pretty bad because mystical elements can't be explained like stuff in detective novels, political thrillers and even works of science fiction can.

[Phoenixx9]

of course, availability of sufficient power sources/resources should be the second limiting factor once the knowledge requirement is satisfied, thank you Phoenixx9

I was thinking of some old stories with sorcerers like Baron Mordo and Xandu.

They were the ones who always wanted the Power, but never had all of the Knowledge to do what they wanted.

Sometimes the writers would make it seem like they did not really gain all the Power they needed or they were stopped before doing something, but I ususally saw between the lines and learned from Dr Strange himself who would often state that they could not do what they wanted because things were not as they thought and/or things did not work that way.

[Daedra]

Yeah, I think if Marvel came out with some handbook to explain magic, that would be great. There would be no need for exposition dumps then. Just refer to that "instruction manual" for information about Marvel mysticism, you know? But then again, a lot of readers are LAZY, so they probably won't go for that. I do understand each magic user is different and I like it that way. I don't want them to be interchangeable either. That would be so boring. I will say that certainly one of the biggest pitfalls of fantasy writers is having magic be a very clear "whatever the author requires at that moment" device. It is totally understandable if readers find it most annoying when either the writer sets up a situation where the reader spend the entire novel wondering why magic isn't just used to solve it, or a novel contains some desperate struggle against overwhelming odds, only to have magic come out of nowhere in the final act and clear almost everything up. These kinds of problems affect all genres, but for magic it can pretty bad because mystical elements can't be explained like stuff in detective novels, political thrillers and even works of science fiction can.

we have mutants on krakoa resurrecting other mutants by the thousand each day, wakanda can cure cancer and reed richards technology can reshape the universe https://www.cbr.com/reed-richards-powerful-inventions/ are you sure the issue here lays with magic?it kinda feels that when we slap the word science on something all is fine and dandy but the moment we call it magic we start to worry about boundaries.

Just have a look at the scene in Avengers infinity war when the big ship arrives in New York and iron man stands near doctor strange, iron man powers up and stephen strikes a pose, which one is more absurd?

[Albert1981]

we have mutants on krakoa resurrecting other mutants by the thousand each day, wakanda can cure cancer and reed richards technology can reshape the universe https://www.cbr.com/reed-richards-powerful-inventions/ are you sure the issue here lays with magic?it kinda feels that when we slap the word science on something all is fine and dandy but the moment we call it magic we start to worry about boundaries.

Wait...What?!! That **** is happening in the comics? Then I got SERIOUS problems with the "science" of the Marvel Universe as well. To cure fatal diseases, and to reshape the universe using contraptions are just lazy writing to me. I'm not surprised about the dead being revived. Comics have been doing that for decades using science AND magic. I don't mind MacGyver, Quantum Leap, James Bond and even Star Trek "inventions" as much because they are somewhat plausible. The writers and producers consult scientific experts on physics so they could "explain" concepts like alternate universes and time travel in a way that's somewhat plausible. They even give us healthy doses of technobabble from time to time. But those are live-action shows and movies. The affects of science and magic in the MCU in MY opinion have been somewhat REASONABLE thus far. I don't think the comics are doing a good job of keeping their stories grounded. But hell, they figured out the cure to cancer and folks know how to reshape the universe using technology in the comic books? Ludicrous. Not even Star Trek went that far.

[Clea]

All the Marvel stories are fantasy. Doesn't matter if they are based on pretend science or magic.

[Albert1981]

I think the burden to understand the 'instruction manual' is on the writers, not the readers. Readers should never need to read a manual in order to understand the story you're telling. Lazy writers, not lazy readers, are the problem. Personally, I would get a kick out of reading any Marvel magic handbook they might want to produce, but I shouldn't have to read it in order to understand what's going on.




Oh my gosh, thank you. Readers (and some of the Marvel team) criticize the magical characters and stories constantly because they don't understand how Marvel magic works so they want to see hard rules for everything. Yet these same readers put up with astonishing abilities from the 'science-based', so-called real world superhero characters. A spider bit some dude and now he has super strength and can stick to walls and fly around on webs. Oh really? A different guy got exposed to radiation so now he can transform into a giant, unstoppable green rage monster who's the strongest being in the universe? Oh, I see. Reed Richards is so smart that he can build tech that can do anything. His tech gets more and more powerful in every story. Sure. It's okay if it's science. It's not okay for someone to devote themselves to the study and use of magical energy because...magic isn't science?

It's all fantasy. It doesn't matter if these heroes gain their abilities from pseudo-science or mysticism. What matters is that the characters are compelling, consistent, and that the writers use the characters and setting to tell a good story. Since the comics characters get handed off from one writer to another, it's important to keep the characters' personalities and abilities generally consistent over time. (I say 'generally' because I do appreciate the need to update characters to keep them interesting to the current audience. What worked in 1965 might not work now.) When it comes to the magical characters, I'm all in favor of Marvel establishing basic guidelines and doing some basic world building so that any writer knows what differentiates the Sorcerer Supreme from other magic users, and they understand the difference between the Dark Dimension and the Astral Plane or the Dream Dimension or the Winding Way, etc. But I don't think that Marvel needs to create rigid rules for the magic users. This isn't a D&D game where you role up people's attributes with dice and then have to stick to a spreadsheet of strengths and spells.

All fiction to a large extent is a form of fantasy, I agree. Westerns, romance, action-adventure, espionage thrillers, musicals, horror, science fiction, medical dramas, police procedurals, space operas, war movies etc. So fantasy stories hold no monopolies on annoying deus ex machinas. But I think magic sort of gets a bad rep because it's not something really tangible like science is, you know? Like how Tony discovered a new element in Iron Man 2? The periodic table is REAL. I have read numerous comments online about people wanting to get into science because of the Iron Man movies. Magic, the way it is described in fiction, is not a profession you can take part in. There are no careers to be found in reality warping, but there are in chemistry. I think that's why science fiction has that edge over fantasy.

That being said, I'm starting to get a greater understanding of how magic operates in the Marvel Universe. Thanks to the comments posted on this thread. I know Strange is connected intimately to the Dark Dimension now. Something I didn't even understand a couple of weeks ago. Maybe I'm an inattentive movie viewer, or perhaps Marvel has done a poor job of explaining how magic works in the MCU, I don't know. But I feel I can only seem to get my education in threads like these.

[Albert1981]

I found a really interesting article online whose link I can't connect to here on CBR, so I'll just post the entire piece here on this thread. It's an older one and was written several weeks ago. And it explained just what Chaos Magic IS (this was during the time when WandaVision was on the air). I was definitely surprised to find out that unlike other forms of magic in the Marvel Universe, Chaos Magic is based on Chaos Magick (which actually exists in "real life")! Automatically this made it more interesting to me because like science based inventions in fictional worlds, chaos magic is based on magic that is practiced by actual people today:

So What Is “Chaos Magic?”

It's more real than you might think.

By Jessica Mason

At the end of last week’s penultimate episode of WandaVision, Kathryn Hahn’s more practiced witch, Agatha Harkness, made the dire proclamation that Wanda Maximoff’s powers were “chaos magic.” That sounds … kinda scary. This isn’t the first streaming series to mention chaos in connection with a powerful magical woman either. The idea of harnessing was central to the magical practitioners in Netflix’s The Witcher.

So let’s talk about chaos magic: does it exist in the Marvel comics? What might it mean in Wanda going forward? And maybe most interesting to my witchy heart: what does real chaos magic entail? Because, yes, it’s actually a thing.

But let’s look at the comics first. Chaos magic is a longstanding element in Marvel comic books, and digging into that lore, it’s clear why Agatha is so frightened by it. According to the Marvel fan wiki: “Chaos Magic is the name of a magic so powerful that it was thought to be non-existent by even the modern Sorcerer Supreme himself. This magic can manipulate, warp, and reconstruct the very fabric of existence and reality to the user’s very whims, and bring about total destruction to the cosmos.”

That sounds exactly like what Wanda’s been up to and also, really freakin’ scary with that whole “destruction of the cosmos thing.”

So where does this come from? In Marvel lore, it was the provenance of an ancient god called Chthon who was banished by a bunch of wizards long ago into a mountain, Mount Wundagore (gotta love those comics names), where centuries later, Wanda Maximoff was born and touched by it. Chaos magic is the anthesis of the kind of ordered magic that folks like Dr. Strange and it would seem, Agatha Harkness, practice. There’s no need for complex incantations or spells, it just happens, well, chaotically.

There’s lots, and I mean, lots of stuff in the comics about Wanda using chaos powers in bigger ways, like that time she erased most mutants from existence. But there’s also stuff that could be very relevant to WandaVision. The God Chthon is still around a bit and his chaotic spells are contained in a book called the Darkhold. Yes, this has been used already in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., but it might be a connection to that glowing book we saw in Agatha’s creepy basement. (Fun fact: it was compiled by Morgan Le Fay. Yes, the Arthurian one). That book has been used to create a lot of monsters by the way, like vampires, which could tie WandaVision in with the future Blade movie, and we know that Wanda at least will go further into the magical realm with an appearance in the upcoming Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness.

Now, Chthon’s name reminds us of Cthulu (like Lovecraft) and Chthonic (of the underworld). All this chaos stuff—and the fact that Doctor Strange 2 will be called “The Multiverse of Madness” in what seems like a reference to Lovecraft’s At The Mountains of Madness—makes it really likely that Chthon and other Elder gods might be coming in the MCU and that all this magic and such will also start ripping holes in the multiverse. Fun? I just hope that Wanda remains a complex character and isn’t reduced to a villain or a vessel for Chthon.

But what about the idea of actual chaos magick (spelled with a k to distinguish it from the comic book stuff)? Most magical stuff in Marvel, from their version of Salem witches to the Darkhold, is based more on longstanding fictional ideas about magic, and less on any actual practices (though Wanda’s son Billy used an entire actual religion for his superhero name, Wiccan, so there are some solid influences).

Chaos Magick is a thing, though it’s not some ancient secret. Much like in the comic book world, in our actual reality, there is ceremonial magic with lots of rules, techniques, and very esoteric stuff. Occultist Austin Osman Spare wanted to make things more accessible and focus on the results and power inherent in things, sort of shuffling off the rules. So, he developed the idea of Chaos Magick. This happened in the 1960s.

Now, the introduction of chaos magic to the Marvel canon came, as far as I can tell, in the 90s or so … it seems like yes, there was a clear influence from the real-world occult practice on the comic. But if you’re interested in more about actual chaos magick, I’d recommend checking out the video on it from the Da’at Darling YouTube Channel’s Occult 101 series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbk2kYsDgvY

Chaos Magick in the real world does contain the concept of thought becoming reality, which … sounds a lot likeWandaVision. Granted modern chaos magick practitioners are using it for things like getting a new job or home protection, not hexing an entire town, turning it into a sitcom, and making magical twins out of thin air. Still, it’s very cool to see the seeds of these actual occult ideas sensationalized in fiction.

The Witcher books, by the way, were also written in the 90s after Spare’s chaos magick work became influential, so I would assume there is some influence there as well. And it makes sense that this concept has taken hold in fiction, because it is in a way intuitive. An idea central to chaos magick is that it is belief that creates power, and that’s in itself a powerful idea. I guess one may say of it: what is magic if not belief persevering?

[MadFacedKid]