Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Albert1981]

I always thought Benedict was one funny dude!

[Phoenixx9]

I would love a new Magic cartoon Featuring Doc Strange and Clea and the various Magic wielders of the MU. A serious show that could demonstrate all of the different beings and it could (visually) show how each Magic is different from the other person Magic during the course of the show. Not telling how they are different but showing us. For example, one person may need spells, another hand gestures, another magical items, etc.

[DigiCom]

I found a really interesting article online whose link I can't connect to here on CBR, so I'll just post the entire piece here on this thread. It's an older one and was written several weeks ago. And it explained just what Chaos Magic IS (this was during the time when WandaVision was on the air). I was definitely surprised to find out that unlike other forms of magic in the Marvel Universe, Chaos Magic is based on Chaos Magick (which actually exists in "real life")! Automatically this made it more interesting to me because like science based inventions in fictional worlds, chaos magic is based on magic that is practiced by actual people today

Yes, and no. I actually know quite a bit about chaos magick (having practiced it when I was younger), and the "chaos magic" in the Marvel comics isn't really similar.

Interestingly enough tho, the runes seen in the last two episodes of Wandavision ARE closer to the sigils chaotes use. But there are still qualitative differences.

I can speak more about it if there is interest.

[Daedra]

I would love a new Magic cartoon Featuring Doc Strange and Clea and the various Magic wielders of the MU. A serious show that could demonstrate all of the different beings and it could (visually) show how each Magic is different from the other person Magic during the course of the show. Not telling how they are different but showing us. For example, one person may need spells, another hand gestures, another magical items, etc.

If only marvel animation didn’t totally suck.....

[Frontier]

Multiverse of Madness concept art of Stephen, Wong, Clea, Wanda, America Chavez, and Baron Mordo:

[Phoenixx9]

If only marvel animation didn’t totally suck.....

I know....it is just a wish. A magical wish perhaps....lol.

[Albert1981]

Yes, and no. I actually know quite a bit about chaos magick (having practiced it when I was younger), and the "chaos magic" in the Marvel comics isn't really similar.

Interestingly enough tho, the runes seen in the last two episodes of Wandavision ARE closer to the sigils chaotes use. But there are still qualitative differences.

I can speak more about it if there is interest.

Please give us the CliffNotes version. My understanding of magic is embarrassingly weak.

[Albert1981]

Since Tolkien is my favorite fantasy author, I feel I should praise how he handled magic in his stories. Tolkien definitely had a system to his magic. Gandalf spoke about the problem of creating fire from nothing, needing something to burn, etc. Also, the Maiar had much greater power but were forbidden to use it in Middle Earth. Why doesn't Gandalf just go SHAMAYHAMEHA ORCS BE GONE! Obviously there is some constraint, some internal rule set that maybe only Tolkien knew but it existed. I appreciated that in his books. I think there is a danger of having complex and complicated magic systems drag down stories through excessive exposition. But a combination of internal consistency and limitations can go a LONG way to dealing with the issues that have held back fantasy stories from having the same respect as other fictional genres.

Here's a quote I think Clea might like that I found on another website:

"I'd also add in that books like LotR and others from earlier eras created worlds that were imbued with magic, rather than worlds where magic was a quantifiable tool.

Elves and dwarves were inherently magical, as were swords, staves and magicians. When Gandalf opened the way to Moria, it wasn't because he spoke a spell, it was because the doors were a magic gate and if one knew the Elvish word for friend, they would open.

More modern fantasy might frame that scenario quite the opposite, where the magic is in the word and the word is a spell and you must be a wizard to say the word and make it work.

Personally I don't have a great preference for either style of magic. They both have their merits and can work well. It's really up to the writer to make it convincing. That being said, while a structured magic "system" can be interesting, when it does devolve into little more than a set of pseudo-scientific rules, a lot of the magic is lost.

I just think the fantasy genre suffers if every story ends up with the protagonist suddenly believing in himself, and that belief gives him the power to win without even trying. The best thing the antagonist could do is just leave the protagonist alone then. Instead the villain gives him a bunch of confidence building exercises, then acts surprised when the now almost omnipotent good guy sends him packing. It makes for shitty storytelling. Magic doesn't have to involve calculus. It just has to have limits, so that there is a legitimate possibility the bad guys can win."

[DigiCom]

Please give us the CliffNotes version. My understanding of magic is embarrassingly weak.

OK, I'll try to be brief.

The first thing to understand is chaos magick (I will use the version with the k spelling for the real-world practice) is something of a misnomer.

In the modern meaning of the term, "chaos" implies randomness, madness, and usually evil. But none of those really apply to chaos magick.

While I can't confirm it without more research, I suspect Peter J. Carroll, who either created or popularized the term, chose it to contrast with the traditionalist and somewhat hidebound magickal orders of British occultism. A better term might be "salad bar magick", as per this scene from Big Trouble in Little China:



To a chaos magician, magick is result oriented. A practice is useful if and only if it WORKS. And there are multiple ways to achieve the same result. The comic-book writer Grant Morrison (who is also a practicing chaos mage, or was in the '90s), "life plus significance equals magick". If they deem an act magickal, it IS magickal.

So what does this have to do with the Scarlet Witch? Honestly, not a lot. Her association with chaos magic (note the spelling) dates only as far back as 1997-8, and the Kurt Busiek Avengers run. This article covers the basics, including how various writers have decanonized and recanonized it since:

https://www.cbr.com/the-abandoned-an...s-chaos-magic/

It seems to hinge less on Carrol-style magick, and more the sort of Order vs Chaos cosmology used by the fantasy writer Michael Moorcock, slthough even he eventually abandoned the simplistic "Order=Good & Chaos=Evil" for a more nuanced & balanced view. I'm not sure anyone has ever asked Kurt about it.

That being said, there is one element of WandaVision that sort of fits the chaos magick paradigm, and that's the runes from episodes 8 and 9. They are not entirely unlike the sigils popularized by Austin O. Spare, although the primary difference is that in sigil magick, each symbol is created new for a specific task, while Wanda reused Agatha's. It's a loose fit, really, but if you squint, it sort of works.

I could go into more detail, but this should be enough to start with.

[Clea]

Multiverse of Madness concept art of Stephen, Wong, Clea, Wanda, America Chavez, and Baron Mordo:

...snipped...

Is it confirmed that Clea is in this movie or is it still speculation? She is my favorite character of all the Marvel magic users, edging out Strange and Wanda by a tiny margin. She's been written so poorly more often than not over the years. I'd be interested to see how they'd portray her in the MCU.

[Albert1981]

OK, I'll try to be brief.

The first thing to understand is chaos magick (I will use the version with the k spelling for the real-world practice) is something of a misnomer.

In the modern meaning of the term, "chaos" implies randomness, madness, and usually evil. But none of those really apply to chaos magick.

While I can't confirm it without more research, I suspect Peter J. Carroll, who either created or popularized the term, chose it to contrast with the traditionalist and somewhat hidebound magickal orders of British occultism. A better term might be "salad bar magick", as per this scene from Big Trouble in Little China:



To a chaos magician, magick is result oriented. A practice is useful if and only if it WORKS. And there are multiple ways to achieve the same result. The comic-book writer Grant Morrison (who is also a practicing chaos mage, or was in the '90s), "life plus significance equals magick". If they deem an act magickal, it IS magickal.

So what does this have to do with the Scarlet Witch? Honestly, not a lot. Her association with chaos magic (note the spelling) dates only as far back as 1997-8, and the Kurt Busiek Avengers run. This article covers the basics, including how various writers have decanonized and recanonized it since:

https://www.cbr.com/the-abandoned-an...s-chaos-magic/

It seems to hinge less on Carrol-style magick, and more the sort of Order vs Chaos cosmology used by the fantasy writer Michael Moorcock, slthough even he eventually abandoned the simplistic "Order=Good & Chaos=Evil" for a more nuanced & balanced view. I'm not sure anyone has ever asked Kurt about it.

That being said, there is one element of WandaVision that sort of fits the chaos magick paradigm, and that's the runes from episodes 8 and 9. They are not entirely unlike the sigils popularized by Austin O. Spare, although the primary difference is that in sigil magick, each symbol is created new for a specific task, while Wanda reused Agatha's. It's a loose fit, really, but if you squint, it sort of works.

I could go into more detail, but this should be enough to start with.

Wow. That is a GREAT primer into chaos magic. You did an EXCELLENT job of dumbing it down for dummies such as myself. Thank you! I do hear the name Spare associated with chaos magic a lot. And I sort of like the idea of results oriented "practical magic". Please feel free to share more of your thoughts on this matter in the future. I have become more interested in magic ever since I read that Slate article which I posted here earlier on this thread. Loved the clip from Big Trouble in Little China!

[Albert1981]

Is it confirmed that Clea is in this movie or is it still speculation? She is my favorite character of all the Marvel magic users, edging out Strange and Wanda by a tiny margin. She's been written so poorly more often than not over the years. I'd be interested to see how they'd portray her in the MCU.

I'm not sure if things have changed because of COVID. I think the year between WandaVision and the Multiverse of Madness altered the storyline for the Strange sequel. If Strange 2 came out this year, I would have been more confident that Clea would show up in it. But I'm actually thinking Wanda will be playing a bigger part in this film than originally planned because of the delay. I'm a huge HUGE Scarlet Witch fan, but I feel my comments on Wanda threads are becoming more of the same over time. I'm not just boring other posters with my familiar opinions, I'm REALLY starting to bore MYSELF too. I love CJStriker though. Such a great dude. I'm MUCH more interested about learning how magic works in the Marvel Universe now. But I feel like talking about magic on Wanda threads would just bore everybody there to tears. But here, we all embrace it. And I wanna get to know Strange better. As I have said MANY times before, I like Stephen as a quippy and snarky fella. That's how I became interested in him in the movies. But I have reservations about him hanging out in bars to such a large extent. He's almost become a Stark clone, which I admit I sort of like? So I guess I'm a bit of hypocrite to be honest.

[Clea]

DigiCom, you have no idea how much I would love to see Stephen Strange and Egg Shen hang out at the Sanctum and discuss magic. "Oh, you have a Six Demon Bag? How fascinating. May I see it?" You know Strange would want to examine it.

[DigiCom]

Wow. That is a GREAT primer into chaos magic. You did an EXCELLENT job of dumbing it down for dummies such as myself. Thank you! I do hear the name Spare associated with chaos magic a lot. And I sort of like the idea of results oriented "practical magic". Please feel free to share more of your thoughts on this matter in the future. I have become more interested in magic ever since I read that Slate article which I posted here earlier on this thread. Loved the clip from Big Trouble in Little China!

Well, there are a couple of places to start if you want more information. There's Grant's speech at DisinfoCon 20 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-cxBuRU09w

A transcript if you don't understand their accent:

http://dedroidify.blogspot.com/2013/...-complete.html

An easy-to-read primer is the Psychonaut's Field Manual, by Bluefluke:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...00008978597397

But the seminal texts are Peter J. Carrol's LIBER NULL & PSYCHONAUT:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...and_Psychonaut

I don't particularly endorse any of these practices, but these are the usual recommendations.

[Albert1981]

Well, there are a couple of places to start if you want more information. There's Grant's speech at DisinfoCon 20 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-cxBuRU09w

A transcript if you don't understand their accent:

http://dedroidify.blogspot.com/2013/...-complete.html

An easy-to-read primer is the Psychonaut's Field Manual, by Bluefluke:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...00008978597397

But the seminal texts are Peter J. Carrol's LIBER NULL & PSYCHONAUT:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...and_Psychonaut

I don't particularly endorse any of these practices, but these are the usual recommendations.

Good Lord, you're giving me an online syllabus now! I'm too lazy for that. I was hoping you would continue to spoon-feed me with more info on chaos magic. But on a more serious note, thanks for the links. I'll take a look at them!