Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Daedra]

Maybe Strange 2 wouldn't need magical systems if the use of magic is relatively rare and restrained.

Imagine making a movie about doctor strange and having magic be a rare thing........

[Daedra]

Too much magic: The problem with writing fantasy

By Alec Worley

Been thinking about this today while working on a pitch for a fantasy project and going over my accumulated work notes…

Fantasy (and the more fantastical breeds of sci-fi) is a hazardous genre for writers. Fantasy deals in magic, which can manifest itself in countless forms, from the secondary worlds of Oz, Wonderland and Middle-earth, to flying nannies, goblin kings and gold-hoarding dragons. Magic is about miracles, mysterious forces or inexplicable events that cannot be ascribed to the laws of reason, nature or science. Magic in fantasy stories isn’t so much about escapism; it’s about redefining the real world to better understand and overcome its challenges. Like language, like story itself, magic is protean and can articulate anything the writer has in mind. Magic is kind of a big deal. The problem is magic is anathema to drama.

Drama obeys the scientific principles of Newton’s third law: “To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction.” In Breaking Bad, Walt does something, causing his antagonist to do something in response, which affects another character, causing them to act, which causes another reaction, and so on. Thus character is plot and plot is character. Cause and effect; action and reaction. However, magic in fantasy, whether sprouting wings to effect a getaway or pulling a Basilisk-killing sword out of a hat, is essentially effect without discernible cause.

It’s hard to sustain dramatic tension within a story if the reader knows that anything can happen for no apparent reason. Sloppy writers can kill an entire story the moment they resolve any dramatic situation with the wave of a magic wand (or perhaps a sonic screwdriver).

Different fantasy stories handle this problem in different ways. Surrealist stories eschew drama, so they’re allowed to go nuts. Fairy tales tend to project a dreamlike air in which the magic is part of the fabric of the world, although good fairy tales usually establish a strong sense of cause-and-effect ‘dream logic’. Earthbound fantasies like It’s A Wonderful Life tend to isolate their supernatural elements with specific rules, while heroic and epic fantasies must carefully rationalise the magic-infused worlds in which they take place.

One way of tackling ‘the magic problem’ in a fantasy story is by ensuring there’s only one miracle in play at a time. The brilliant Disney fairy tale Tangled is a great example of this. The movie features only one story-affecting bit of magic: Rapunzel’s hair. Compare this to the Harry Potter movies, which present a hurricane of magic items, clauses and wotnot of which the viewer is expected to keep track as the story unfolds. For me, this is why most of the Potter movies completely fail as drama (although they get by just fine on charm and inventiveness). But back to Tangled. Notice how Rapunzel’s magic ability is not only incredibly simple to understand (her hair can heal when she sings and loses its power when it’s cut), it also helps drive the story, as the other characters fight for control over her magic locks or the heroine puts them to unexpected use herself (as in that scene with the flooding cave).

Stories playing more than one miracle at a time is what the late screenwriting guru Blake Snyder called ‘double mumbo-jumbo’. “A little goes a long way as far as ideas are concerned,” he wrote, and he’s absolutely right. Never overproduce a good idea by adding another one on top of it. Simple is almost always better, and this is especially true when dealing with fantasy stories. To use Snyder’s example, the earthbound fantasy movie 13 Going On 30 involves both a bodyswap and a timeslip and thus struggles to find room for two sets of comedy routines.

If you’re introducing a magic artefact that does one particular thing (a belt that grants super-strength, say), beware making that artefact do something else as well halfway through the story. Don’t change the rules of magic just to fix a story problem. Establish the rules of cause and effect early on then stick to them.

I’ve always felt that epic fantasies like Lord Of The Rings and Game Of Thrones are the single toughest nut to crack in terms of storytelling. Getting to know the ins and outs of your fantasy world and making them easily relatable to an audience is a Herculean task. There are so many extra balls to juggle when you use magic to turn the plot. Writing a story set in the ordinary world puts a welcome limit on the number of threads that can evolve, whereas fantasy employs all these extra threads that must be defined and orchestrated in order to work.

I’ve rambled enough now. So, I’ll end on this great quote from Game of Thrones author George RR Martin (interviewed in SFX magazine, 2012): “Too much magic can ruin a fantasy. Magic is a very powerful ingredient and it unbalances everything. You can’t put in a lot of magic and then still have a medieval setting or the same social structure. The existence of magic would radically deform any society or culture in major, major ways. If you look at the history of the real Middle Ages, magic was very present. Of course it didn’t really work but they didn’t know that. They believed in witches and killed and burned many witches and wizards. They believed in alchemy and angels and demons. There were also doubters so I try to replicate that. When magic works, it works a little uncertainly and it’s not something everyone can work. I don’t like the idea of a magic system, which some fantasists use. If magic is systematic, then it’s not magic and more of a fake science. Magic is the supernatural and it’s beyond nature. It’s dangerous, uncontrollable and unpredictable, which is the flavour I try to deal with. Really my models were the great fantasists like Tolkien. There’s a very magical feel to Middle-earth but there’s very little on-stage magic. Gandalf never tries to solve the problem by whipping up a potion or a spell. When he’s attacked he doesn’t throw lightning bolts from his fingernails, but picks up a sword like everyone else.”

So many baseless assumptions mixed with the author very limited personal views and taste, someone never read a forgotten realms book or an harry potter book for that matter, it’s clear this guy does not know what he is talking about. High fantasy settings are a separated genre, Why should I care about the way he feels about magic in fiction when it’s clear he does not even like it? How is it different from the way tony stark and reed richards use “technology”?........ it’s all the same, that’s the truth!

[Albert1981]

Imagine making a movie about doctor strange and having magic be a rare thing........

Please refer to this Tumblr post to understand why when magic is used sparingly, it can be even MORE interesting than it already is! (counterintuitive, I know):

https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.t...af-and-in-lotr

[Albert1981]

So many baseless assumptions mixed with the author very limited personal views and taste, someone never read a forgotten realms book or an harry potter book for that matter, it’s clear this guy does not know what he is talking about. High fantasy settings are a separated genre, Why should I care about the way he feels about magic in fiction when it’s clear he does not even like it? How is it different from the way tony stark and reed richards use “technology”?........ it’s all the same, that’s the truth!

But this dude is an aspiring science fiction and fantasy writer! I definitely don't think he hates the fantasy genre.

[Albert1981]

Movies rarely have time to explain a "magic system", because they only have 2-3 hours to introduce the cast & setting and handle the plot. Even the Harry Potter films spent fairly little time in the classroom, and that series had 8 films to explain things.

The only exception is movies like The Sorcerer's Apprentice, where learning a particular intricacy to the magic is key to defeating the Big Bad™. But stories like that are pretty rare.

I totally agree that movies practically NEVER have the time to explain magic systems. It can only happen in RPGs and novels. And MAYBE comic books (but the editors and writers there don't follow there own rules so I don't think it matters for them). You're right the Harry Potter films did NOT spend much time in the classroom, but neither does Strange Academy according to you. Which I find odd.

[Albert1981]

I kinda like how magic was used older 20th century fantasy tales. Like in the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. For those here who haven't read the Chronicles of Narnia, I liked how C.S. Lewis incorporated FOOD into his magic. Whenever I think of his books, I always remember the "Turkish Delight". Here's an interesting describing how Turkish Delight was considered a "magical object" in that famous book:

"Turkish delight is included in the book The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis when Edmund Pevensie follows his sister Lucy through the wardrobe. Edmund loses his sister in the confusion of walking through what he thought was a closet into a new magical land. He is then discovered by the evil White Witch.

Edmund and the White Witch begin talking, and she becomes really interested when he mentions being a human like you and me. The White Witch has evil plans for the four children who are said to become the rulers of Narnia. This is because she rules Narnia and doesn't want anything to change. She offers Edmund anything he wants to eat, and Edmund asks for Turkish delight in exchange for him bringing his siblings to her once they get to Narnia.

What is Turkish Delight?

Turkish delight is a candy that is made up of starch and sugar--kind of like a gumdrop dusted with powdered sugar. Some common flavors are rose water, lemon, and orange.

We're not sure what flavor Edmund's Turkish delight was, but in chapter four of The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, it is described like this: 'a round box, tied with green silk ribbon, which, when opened, turned out to contain several pounds of the best Turkish delight. Each piece was sweet and light to the very center and Edmund had never tasted anything more delicious.'

The True Meaning of the Turkish Delight

After finishing the box of Turkish delight, Edmund instantly wants more! This is not just because the candy is delicious; it's also because the food has been enchanted to make him want to keep eating it. The White Witch did this so that Edmund would be desperate, or willing to do anything she asks, for more. The White Witch used Edmund's craving, or hunger, for the magical Turkish delight to get him to betray his family, or put them in danger for his own benefit, by bringing them to her.

Edmund sees how his decisions to go after Turkish delight could have led to him losing his brother and sisters, and he feels terrible. Edmund's punishment for betraying his brother and sisters is death. However, instead of Edmund dying, Aslan, the great lion, steps up and takes the punishment himself. Aslan did not do anything wrong, but he was the one who died for Edmund.

The gift that Aslan gave is called a sacrifice, which means to give up something or do something for someone else that hurts the one who gives it. Aslan took on Edmund's punishment and died in his place. This sacrifice changes Edmund and makes him want to be a good person who would never betray his family, and Edmund works hard to make up for what he did.

Turkish delight is a candy made with starch and sugar that commonly comes in flavors like rose, orange, and lemon. In The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, Turkish delight is a symbol of Edmund's mistakes and his want for something so much that he will hurt others to get it.

After the White Witch gives Edmund the enchanted Turkish delight, he is desperate, or willing to do anything, for more. This leads him to betray his brother and sisters, or put them in danger for his own benefit, by agreeing to take them to the White Witch. Edmund's punishment for this is death, but Aslan decides to sacrifice, or give up, his own life to save Edmund's."

Now Strange 2 will be probably more along the lines of a typical MCU action-adventure movie with magic, but I'm hoping it will incorporate some of the "enchanting" and "mysterious" elements of magic that was found in Narnia too. I kinda doubt it though. LOL!

[DigiCom]

I totally agree that movies practically NEVER have the time to explain magic systems. It can only happen in RPGs and novels. And MAYBE comic books (but the editors and writers there don't follow there own rules so I don't think it matters for them). You're right the Harry Potter films did NOT spend much time in the classroom, but neither does Strange Academy according to you. Which I find odd.

It's not odd. Not really. Stories thrive on conflict, and at the end of the day, "Oh no! I can't learn how to cast Hecate's Hieratic Heptagram!" just isn't as exciting as "The Dark One has broken free, my best friends are surrounded by demons, and all I have to fight with is a broken pencil."

[Albert1981]

It's not odd. Not really. Stories thrive on conflict, and at the end of the day, "Oh no! I can't learn how to cast Hecate's Hieratic Heptagram!" just isn't as exciting as "The Dark One has broken free, my best friends are surrounded by demons, and all I have to fight with is a broken pencil."

Oh, I meant for the Strange Academy comic book. I know stories thrive on conflict, but I thought Strange Academy would touch on coming of age themes too. Don't get me wrong, I like the conflict in these fantasy stories, but sometimes they do go overboard with the "flashy wizard duels".

[DigiCom]

I kinda like how magic was used older 20th century fantasy tales. Like in the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. For those here who haven't read the Chronicles of Narnia, I liked how C.S. Lewis incorporated FOOD into his magic. Whenever I think of his books, I always remember the "Turkish Delight". Here's an interesting describing how Turkish Delight was considered a "magical object" in that famous book

Piece of advice? Posting walls of text can make people skip what you write. A link is usually sufficient.

[DigiCom]

Oh, I meant for the Strange Academy comic book. I know stories thrive on conflict, but I thought Strange Academy would touch on coming of age themes too. Don't get me wrong, I like the conflict in these fantasy stories, but sometimes they do go overboard with the "flashy wizard duels".

Well, the conflicts in SA have so far been less "heptagram" and more "broken pencil".

[Albert1981]

Wanda's chaos magic is basically like the life force, because that was the story they borrowed from. It's just simply reality warping. There isn't much to understand about it. It has no real world application to be compared to. It's not a spell. It's a power. It's like Franklin Richards creating a pocket universe in his closet. Wanda's magic was explained as being divine and not needing study nor a covenant. It's a power from the beginning of the universe, the big bang.

I see. Your response is interesting and fascinating, but I have to say it sounds EXTREMELY esoteric to me. Wanda creating kids and bringing Wonder Man back to life always confused me. Creating life through magic just always confused me I'm sorry to say. But I'm probably in the minority here. I will say that I have come to accept it though after watching WandaVision.

[Albert1981]

Piece of advice? Posting walls of text can make people skip what you write. A link is usually sufficient.

I try to! But sometimes I can't link the web pages on to here! Weird.

[Albert1981]

Well, the conflicts in SA have so far been less "heptagram" and more "broken pencil".

Now that's very creative. I hope the series doesn't get cancelled. I hope Strange's students don't know what he's doing after hours these days.

Do you consider the Quesada years to be "bad" for magic? I'm surprised writers and editors were so concerned about magical deus ex machinas during that time, but they also brought readers stories like One More Day and House of M. Wasn't that just reinforcing that perception of how magic can be misused in the comic books?

[Clea]

Please refer to this Tumblr post to understand why when magic is used sparingly, it can be even MORE interesting than it already is! (counterintuitive, I know):

https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.t...af-and-in-lotr

But this dude is an aspiring science fiction and fantasy writer! I definitely don't think he hates the fantasy genre.

Doctor Strange does not exist in Middle Earth or Westeros. There are no one size fits all rules for how magic can be or should be used in any story. I would not expect the rules of Marvel magic to apply to LeGuin's Earthsea stories, for example, nor would I judge the Marvel magical characters according to the rules that LeGuin established for her stories. They're different worlds with very different worldbuilding rules and characters. I suggest it's best to judge the success or failure of a Marvel magic story on its own merits. Strange is a Marvel comics sorcerer who uses Marvel comics magic all the time. That's his thing. Strange's stories generally abide by the rules of Marvel magic. He isn't Gandalf (who, I would like to point out to the author of this article, doesn't use magic like a sorcerer because he isn't a sorcerer. He's a Maia.). To suggest that the Doctor Strange movie should have almost no magic in it rather misses the point of who this character is, and the world he inhabits. Using magic sparingly makes sense for Martin's Westeros novels because he was trying to mirror real world history as much possible (only with dragons and zombies). Using magic sparingly doesn't make sense for Doctor Strange.

As an aside, I note that George RR Martin is a big fan of the Doctor Strange comics, so he is clearly able to write magic one way in his books, but enjoy it in a completely different way in Marvel comics.

As for assuming that the writer you quoted likes fantasy because he is an aspiring SF/F writer, that's not necessarily true at all. I know SF writers (and fans) who dislike fantasy. I also know SF writers who write Nancy Drew novels. Doesn't mean they like Nancy Drew. Just means they liked the paycheck they got to be Carolyn Keene for a couple weeks.

[DigiCom]

Now that's very creative. I hope the series doesn't get cancelled. I hope Strange's students don't know what he's doing after hours these days.

Do you consider the Quesada years to be "bad" for magic? I'm surprised writers and editors were so concerned about magical deus ex machinas during that time, but they also brought readers stories like One More Day and House of M. Wasn't that just reinforcing that perception of how magic can be misused in the comic books?

Oh yes. Consider this...

Stephen Strange had an ongoing title (albeit shared for about a year and a half) from 1974 to 1996. Twenty-four YEARS of stories, from creators like Steve Englehart, Chris Claremont, Roger Stern, Peter Gillis, and Roy Thomas. None of them had trouble writing a Strange who wasn't a deus ex machina.

For the next decade, various writers try to revive him with stories excellent (The Oath, by Brian K. Vaughn) and not (the Straczynski Strange mini), but he's pretty much in limbo, while X-Men & Spidey rule the roost.

No biggie, it happened to a lot of characters.

But in 2008, all of a sudden, despite literally DECADES of examples of Strange being used in well-rounded stories, Quesada & Bendis decide that depowering him is the answer, turning him into a glorified magical taxi.... for five years. And then he gets his powers back (and I'll rant about THAT another day) and FINALLY gets an ongoing again (after Hickman lets go of him... only to get depowered again.

After FAR too long dealing with the "Empirikul", he gets his power back. Only to lose his title to Loki, and end up a veternarian (I kid thee not).

FINALLY, we get the first Waid run... and he's depowered again (although for less time).

Over and over, the same damn stories... all because Marvel editorial is full of people who think that big events and deconstruction are the only way to profit.

And readers wander off...