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  1. #571
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    As for assuming that the writer you quoted likes fantasy because he is an aspiring SF/F writer, that's not necessarily true at all. I know SF writers (and fans) who dislike fantasy. I also know SF writers who write Nancy Drew novels. Doesn't mean they like Nancy Drew. Just means they liked the paycheck they got to be Carolyn Keene for a couple weeks.
    I actually know of a writer who refused to admit she wrote science fiction, because she thought it was beneath her. (She changed her tune when there was money in it).

    And then we have writers who label what they do "slipstream", or "magical realism", all so they can get shelved with "real" works of literature. :P

  2. #572
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    I actually know of a writer who refused to admit she wrote science fiction, because she thought it was beneath her. (She changed her tune when there was money in it).

    And then we have writers who label what they do "slipstream", or "magical realism", all so they can get shelved with "real" works of literature. :P
    LOL. I think I may know who you're referring to. And there are still female writers who publish under male pseudonyms so that they can get a better paycheck and/or not be harassed by aggressive male fanboys who think that SF/F and comics should only be written by and enjoyed by males. The publishing world is strange and fickle. At the end of the day, I don't actually fault writers who want their work classified as hoity-toity magical realism instead of fantasy, because maybe they'll get a better paycheck and a wider reading audience. Maybe using the cool publishing buzz words will keep them in the public eye and in print a little longer. Or maybe, they're simply lit snobs themselves. They can't acknowledge that they are fantasy writers because they look down on fantasy, too. Who knows. Still, even best selling authors need to pay their bills. I try not to judge anyone who's trying to make an honest living in any of the creative arts. Write great fantasy like 'The Last Unicorn' or write dumb kiddie lit like 'Nancy Drew'. I don't care. Beats being a greeter at Walmart.
    Last edited by Clea; 04-14-2021 at 08:38 PM.
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  3. #573
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    Doctor Strange does not exist in Middle Earth or Westeros. There are no one size fits all rules for how magic can be or should be used in any story. I would not expect the rules of Marvel magic to apply to LeGuin's Earthsea stories, for example, nor would I judge the Marvel magical characters according to the rules that LeGuin established for her stories. They're different worlds with very different worldbuilding rules and characters. I suggest it's best to judge the success or failure of a Marvel magic story on its own merits. Strange is a Marvel comics sorcerer who uses Marvel comics magic all the time. That's his thing. Strange's stories generally abide by the rules of Marvel magic. He isn't Gandalf (who, I would like to point out to the author of this article, doesn't use magic like a sorcerer because he isn't a sorcerer. He's a Maia.). To suggest that the Doctor Strange movie should have almost no magic in it rather misses the point of who this character is, and the world he inhabits. Using magic sparingly makes sense for Martin's Westeros novels because he was trying to mirror real world history as much possible (only with dragons and zombies). Using magic sparingly doesn't make sense for Doctor Strange.

    As an aside, I note that George RR Martin is a big fan of the Doctor Strange comics, so he is clearly able to write magic one way in his books, but enjoy it in a completely different way in Marvel comics.

    As for assuming that the writer you quoted likes fantasy because he is an aspiring SF/F writer, that's not necessarily true at all. I know SF writers (and fans) who dislike fantasy. I also know SF writers who write Nancy Drew novels. Doesn't mean they like Nancy Drew. Just means they liked the paycheck they got to be Carolyn Keene for a couple weeks.
    You know what, you convinced me that magic has to be used more than sparingly in Strange 2. So I agree with Daedra and you on that front now. I just got Marvel fantasy stories mixed up with tales that took place in Oz, Neverland and Narnia. That's my fault. I will say you REALLY know your fantasy. Boy, you weren't kidding when you mentioned that you read so much of this stuff throughout your life. I'm impressed! I had no idea Martin was a fan of Strange! That's so cool. I haven't read his works or watched Game of Thrones myself, but I understand it was a huge cultural phenomenon in the past decade. I'm just not a fan of nudity, violence and profanity. I don't think writers should look down on other genres of literature. I know 20th century American literature celebrates Fitzgerald, Faulkner and Hemingway (and rightly so), but I have a lot of love for Le Guin and Heinlein too. Heck, Hammett and Chandler certainly deserve praise too. I respect all genres whether they are fantasy, science fiction, western, thriller, historical, spy fiction, detective, action, romance and war novels. But I do think the overuse of magic can cause contradictions in the story for MoM. Hopefully the writers avoid this.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-15-2021 at 02:33 PM.

  4. #574
    Chaos bringer GenericUsername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I see. Your response is interesting and fascinating, but I have to say it sounds EXTREMELY esoteric to me. Wanda creating kids and bringing Wonder Man back to life always confused me. Creating life through magic just always confused me I'm sorry to say. But I'm probably in the minority here. I will say that I have come to accept it though after watching WandaVision.
    Wanda wasn't using pure magic when she did those things. Her kids was her magic + Vision's solar energy + the soul essences of witches during a battle with the Salem Seven. Wonder Man was her using his ionic abilities + love because comics. Wanda's stronger powers in comics come not just from Chthon but the ability to tap into stronger powers. Now she did bring back Eric Masterson from being turned into shards of glass during Infinity Gauntlet. But that was just probably a reversal spell of what the infinity gauntlet did.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  5. #575
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Oh yes. Consider this...

    Stephen Strange had an ongoing title (albeit shared for about a year and a half) from 1974 to 1996. Twenty-four YEARS of stories, from creators like Steve Englehart, Chris Claremont, Roger Stern, Peter Gillis, and Roy Thomas. None of them had trouble writing a Strange who wasn't a deus ex machina.

    For the next decade, various writers try to revive him with stories excellent (The Oath, by Brian K. Vaughn) and not (the Straczynski Strange mini), but he's pretty much in limbo, while X-Men & Spidey rule the roost.

    No biggie, it happened to a lot of characters.

    But in 2008, all of a sudden, despite literally DECADES of examples of Strange being used in well-rounded stories, Quesada & Bendis decide that depowering him is the answer, turning him into a glorified magical taxi.... for five years. And then he gets his powers back (and I'll rant about THAT another day) and FINALLY gets an ongoing again (after Hickman lets go of him... only to get depowered again.

    After FAR too long dealing with the "Empirikul", he gets his power back. Only to lose his title to Loki, and end up a veternarian (I kid thee not).

    FINALLY, we get the first Waid run... and he's depowered again (although for less time).

    Over and over, the same damn stories... all because Marvel editorial is full of people who think that big events and deconstruction are the only way to profit.

    And readers wander off...
    Wow, I didn't know Bendis and Quesada ruined Strange like that! I don't hate either of those dudes. I vaguely remember that the work they did on Daredevil was pretty iconic. So I respect them for that. But maybe they were more suited for the "crime" corner of the Marvel Universe as oppose to the mystical "one"? I read a comment on a forum that had NOTHING to do with comic books, but the posters there seemed VERY aware of Marvel's stance on magic and its rules:

    "Does it need rules? Yes, at least at some level, in order to not just be a "do anything, anytime" ability -- which is the way people default to thinking of magic, if fairytales and children's stories are any indicator. Do those rules need an in-depth explanation in the text? Not necessarily. What's important is that the reader has a sense that the rules exist; whether it's because of insufficient newt eyeballs or because using magic requires burning calories or because magic only works in some places and not others, there needs to be a reason why magic can solve one problem and not another.

    Otherwise, you're falling back on "It's magic, we don't have to explain it", to quote Marvel when readers asked how Harry Osborn was alive again in the immediate aftermath of "One More Day". Well, if the readers are asking, not explaining it is going to leave you with readers who aren't satisfied with the story. It's very much a "good storytelling" issue. If magic can't do absolutely anything in all situations -- and the need for conflict demands that it can't -- there's got to be some kind of rule as to why.

    How in-depth those rules are, and how much detail they get in the text can vary, though. You can assign complex D&D-style rules (which are generally cited to be based on Vance's fantasy, not the other way around, incidentally), or you can leave it at a "what goes up comes down" level of complexity. And even if you have the complex rules you can use them only as author's notes, similar to the "series bibles" that television programs often have. And magic can be nebulous or it can be precise. It can all be done well. But in all cases, being done well requires that the reader has cause to believe that there's a reason why it behaves the way it does."
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-14-2021 at 08:48 PM.

  6. #576
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Wanda wasn't using pure magic when she did those things. Her kids was her magic + Vision's solar energy + the soul essences of witches during a battle with the Salem Seven. Wonder Man was her using his ionic abilities + love because comics. Wanda's stronger powers in comics come not just from Chthon but the ability to tap into stronger powers. Now she did bring back Eric Masterson from being turned into shards of glass during Infinity Gauntlet. But that was just probably a reversal spell of what the infinity gauntlet did.
    Good Lord, this is precisely why I couldn't stay with the comic books for too long. **** really got weird. I'm glad that the MCU is simplifying things. I admire the creativity of these comic book writers, but I don't think even Tolkien and/or Lewis would understand how this stuff happened. It's just too fucking bizarre!

  7. #577
    Chaos bringer GenericUsername's Avatar
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    Strange getting back his SS title the same way he lost it was pretty confusing, and infuriating. I could accept him losing it if the story was great. But it was garbage because it had no pay off.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  8. #578
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    And even if you have the complex rules you can use them only as author's notes, similar to the "series bibles" that television programs often have. And magic can be nebulous or it can be precise. It can all be done well. But in all cases, being done well requires that the reader has cause to believe that there's a reason why it behaves the way it does."
    "Bibles" for a franchise are a good idea, but it requires a level of commitment from editors that I don't see at Marvel & DC these days.

    Instead, writers seem free to do whatever they want, and if they are popular enough, they can warp other characters to fit their needs.

    That's what happened with Strange. Instead of writers crafting stories about him, we have had writer after writer changing him to fit the story they want to tell. Depowering him was the start, I think the rot really set in the 2011 Defenders series, where he suddenly was written like this:



    Sheesh. A far cry from this:


  9. #579
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    90s strange was great, I have the epic collection trade of those issues.

    He was used so well then and in other books at the time like Ghost Rider and Uncanny X-men where we got a great Strange by Joe Mad.

    No depowering needed back then because he was respected by others as the go to guy for magic/demon/universal events, played a major part in infinity war/crusade/gauntlet too.


  10. #580
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    I actually know of a writer who refused to admit she wrote science fiction, because she thought it was beneath her. (She changed her tune when there was money in it).

    And then we have writers who label what they do "slipstream", or "magical realism", all so they can get shelved with "real" works of literature. :P
    Library person here, over 40 years. Not a librarian (MSLS) but highly skilled in subject headings, etc. For several years I've noted, as I returned to regular fiction/other reading, that there are a lot of fantasy or SF type stories that are placed on the regular Fiction shelves at most public libraries.

    There certainly are shelves labeled SF/etc, that also feature many books, fiction that might seem just as welcome on the regular fiction shelf as those ones I'm thinking of.
    I could give more specific answers, but some of this is of course marketing. In general some more actual SF type novels may be seen as 'speculative fiction' and cross the divide easily enough.
    I'm currently reading "Midnight Bargain" by C.L. Polk, which is labeled for Science Fiction as it should. More of a magical fantasy, othery type world. I love it, exquisite and all that.
    But I'm a great fan of "The Invisible Library" series (about 6 of them) a fantasy set in a Victorian type world where Dragons and Fae wage an eternal battle (Dragons are order, Fae are chaos) and "Librarians" visit alternate worlds to steal, ummm, procure, unique books for the Library World. It's quite a ride! But it goes in regular fiction, for whatever reasons. I love mostly books by female authors about female characters. My regular reads are mysteries, fantasy, sci-fi, supernatural romance (clearly also subject to this library 'whim', most of our Anita Blake vampire hunter is in regular fiction).
    ~ Oberon ~
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    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  11. #581
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    "Bibles" for a franchise are a good idea, but it requires a level of commitment from editors that I don't see at Marvel & DC these days.

    Instead, writers seem free to do whatever they want, and if they are popular enough, they can warp other characters to fit their needs.

    That's what happened with Strange. Instead of writers crafting stories about him, we have had writer after writer changing him to fit the story they want to tell. Depowering him was the start, I think the rot really set in the 2011 Defenders series, where he suddenly was written like this:
    ...images snipped ...
    Marvel went through a period of several years when the writers and the fans questioned what was more important: continuity or consistency. Everybody settled in favor of consistency over continuity and 'rules' and 'guidelines.' When it came to Doctor Strange, Marvel at the same time was in the midst of transforming him into an Avenger which meant nerfing his powers. Lots of fans now know Strange only via his role as an Avenger. Every writer that's come along since has interpreted the character to varying degrees of success.

    To me, Fraction falls somewhere in between Bendis (who nerfed the character) and Aaron (who turned character into a freakshow). Fraction clearly knows Strange's canon and powers, but he emphasized Strange's flaws, particularly his problems with love and intimacy. Cullen Bunn picked up where Fraction left off and made Strange come off even sleazier. Aaron -good grief- was so out of bounds with his run on the book that that his version of Strange was Strange in name only. It is possible to showcase a character's flaws without dragging the character down. Look at the Giffen and DeMattis take in Defenders Indefensible, for example. That book is hilarious, IMO.

    So far as the comics are concerned, these days I look at the writer and decide if I want to read or ignore a story. I'm fully on board with the notion of consistency over continuity if it results in a good story, but I do still expect the writers to understand the character, his history, and Marvel magic.
    Live Faust, Die Jung.

  12. #582
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    "Bibles" for a franchise are a good idea, but it requires a level of commitment from editors that I don't see at Marvel & DC these days.

    Instead, writers seem free to do whatever they want, and if they are popular enough, they can warp other characters to fit their needs.

    That's what happened with Strange. Instead of writers crafting stories about him, we have had writer after writer changing him to fit the story they want to tell. Depowering him was the start, I think the rot really set in the 2011 Defenders series, where he suddenly was written like this:



    Sheesh. A far cry from this:

    What does Stephen have against shirts these days?! LOL. And that dude sure spends a LOT of his time in bed it seems.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-15-2021 at 02:31 PM.

  13. #583
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the first Strange movie. Or at least the latter parts of it. But the visuals were great and the use of magic was REALLY original. So good job Marvel. But like I mentioned to Clea and DigiCom earlier, I kinda enjoyed the mysterious and enchanting nature of magic in previous fantasy stories just a little bit more? There were no formal "magic systems" in them, and there weren't a lot of explanations regarding the mysticism involved. And that was fine with me, because when it comes to fantasy I acknowledge an important part of the genre is the "wonder" of magic. I just think with more "modern" magic in the media these days, rules, limitations and internal consistency is really important. Fantasy movies are not like martial arts or monster movies. They're not about mindless entertainment. I think that's why so many of them have failed no matter how big the budgets they have.

    Personally, I always enjoyed the Sword and the Stone. There's a lot of enchantment, chivalry and even philosophy in that film. And I liked the fact that Only the Chosen May Wield the Sword in it. And while I LOVE the Thor franchise, if SO many people can wield Thor's Hammer, doesn't it lose some of its magic? I loved Ragnarok because the movie emphasized the fact that Thor is a noble person even without possessing it. But that message was totally undermined when a NEW hammer was forged for him in Infinity War.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...ChosenMayWield

    I also really enjoyed the funny battle between Merlin and Madame Mim not just because of the reality warping, but because Merlin prevailed using "knowledge over strength". It's gonna be hard for Strange to top his victory over Dormammu in that first movie in the Multiverse of Madness:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sw...ne_(1963_film)
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-15-2021 at 02:08 PM.

  14. #584
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    What does Stephen have against shirts these days?! LOL. And that dude sure spends a LOT of time in bed it seems.
    In his defense, he'd just gotten back from a 5000-year-long magickal war, and his closet was a bit bare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Fantasy movies are not like martial arts or monster movies. They're not about mindless entertainment. I think that's why so many of them have failed no matter how big the budgets they have.
    I might quibble about martial arts movies.

    Actually, a lot of what we saw in the Strange movie reminds me of the more outre wuxia films, like Zu: Warriors from the Magic Mountain or Storm Riders

  15. #585
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    In his defense, he'd just gotten back from a 5000-year-long magickal war, and his closet was a bit bare.



    I might quibble about martial arts movies.

    Actually, a lot of what we saw in the Strange movie reminds me of the more outre wuxia films, like Zu: Warriors from the Magic Mountain or Storm Riders
    You know, you're right! I never watched any of those wuxia films, but I do know that Iron Fist was a master of the mystical arts as well in the comic books. So I guess martial arts and the supernatural definitely can mix. Thanks for reminding me. But you're never gonna see "magical" Godzilla vs Kong films!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-15-2021 at 02:12 PM.

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