Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Albert1981]

So do folks on this thread think it is okay for Marvel magic users to create "something out of nothing"? Especially when no costs or consequences result from such actions. It's tricky for Strange and his supporting cast because they don't live in a strictly "magical" world like Camelot or Oz. They are part of the MCU where science RULES. What I'm talking about is the trend of having your magic system follow the laws of physics to a degree, especially the Law of Conservation of Energy: "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only its form changed". Or to put it more simply, to create you must take. That magic system is directly based on old scientific principles to begin with. Or do you like to keep science and magic more separate?

[Albert1981]

Well, Doc does state that he does not own any pool table. He did not say that he has never played, nor that he is good at it.

That's true! I wouldn't mind seeing Strange chalking a cue stick with magic!

[Albert1981]

my speculation is that he is available to help someone in a jam, who is in debt to a sorcerer or demon. "Let's settle things with a game". I'm sure all the mystic pubs have a billiards table, with appropriately weird rules: 15 balls, self-moving pockets, dodging flames after a scratch, etc. It would actually make for a good short story or one-shot to explore something like that.

That WOULD be a cool short story. It would be even cooler if he loses his magical powers at a key moment of a game and then executes an unbelievable trick shot because he hustled pool as a youth and didn't need magic to help him in the first place.

[Albert1981]

Hahaha, yeah, and also, if Doc got in a jam where he had to play, he could just magic his shot into the side pocket.

I wouldn't mind if Stephen Strange adopted a "Fast Eddie" persona if he shot magical pool. People on this thread have asked why I like "quippy" dialogue. All you have to do is watch one of my favorite movies of all-time, the Hustler, to know where I got my love of fast talking, plain-speaking dialogue from:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQbtuEXkP80

[DigiCom]

Strange does look like a little bit of a hustler to me.

Hustler, pimp, whatever...

Well, Doc does state that he does not own any pool table. He did not say that he has never played, nor that he is good at it.

Hence "unlikely".

So do folks on this thread think it is okay for Marvel magic users to create "something out of nothing"? Especially when no costs or consequences result from such actions. It's tricky for Strange and his supporting cast because they don't live in a strictly "magical" world like Camelot or Oz. They are part of the MCU where science RULES. What I'm talking about is the trend of having your magic system follow the laws of physics to a degree, especially the Law of Conservation of Energy: "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only its form changed". Or to put it more simply, to create you must take. That magic system is directly based on old scientific principles to begin with. Or do you like to keep science and magic more separate?

I don't lose sleep over it. There are so many ways to work around it, it's not even funny.

For example "I didn't create it out of nothing! I transformed it out of the nitrogen in the air!" Or "I summoned it from an alternate timeline!"

Plus, I think it's a mistake to tie magic TOO closely to science. As I've said elsewhere, there's an otherwise excellent Doctor Strange mini called The Oath that did one thing I couldn't stand... it said "Magic cannot duplicate what science had invented", which falls apart COMPLETELY on casual examination.

Anyway, I think people read far too much into the "MCU is built on science" thing. All because of one bloody line in Thor which was contradicted by events in the actual movie. Sure, humans BELIEVED science was paramount, but that's simply because they didn't KNOW about magic.

[Clea]

So do folks on this thread think it is okay for Marvel magic users to create "something out of nothing"? Especially when no costs or consequences result from such actions. It's tricky for Strange and his supporting cast because they don't live in a strictly "magical" world like Camelot or Oz. They are part of the MCU where science RULES. What I'm talking about is the trend of having your magic system follow the laws of physics to a degree, especially the Law of Conservation of Energy: "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only its form changed". Or to put it more simply, to create you must take. That magic system is directly based on old scientific principles to begin with. Or do you like to keep science and magic more separate?

Marvel magic users do not "create something out of nothing." The Marvel Universe contains both Marvel science and Marvel magic. It always has. Both are equally valid in Marvel stories. Neither rules over the other.

[Albert1981]

Hustler, pimp, whatever...



Hence "unlikely".



I don't lose sleep over it. There are so many ways to work around it, it's not even funny.

For example "I didn't create it out of nothing! I transformed it out of the nitrogen in the air!" Or "I summoned it from an alternate timeline!"

Plus, I think it's a mistake to tie magic TOO closely to science. As I've said elsewhere, there's an otherwise excellent Doctor Strange mini called The Oath that did one thing I couldn't stand... it said "Magic cannot duplicate what science had invented", which falls apart COMPLETELY on casual examination.

Anyway, I think people read far too much into the "MCU is built on science" thing. All because of one bloody line in Thor which was contradicted by events in the actual movie. Sure, humans BELIEVED science was paramount, but that's simply because they didn't KNOW about magic.

Doctor Strange's costume definitely show he's not opposed to swag. So I could see him hustling. Pool shark is a bit of a stretch though. It's interesting you brought up the example of the Oath. In my research on Strange, that story definitely has been mentioned quite a few times. After the pandemic passes, I'm seriously considering reading it. But from I understand, that particular storyline DID separate science and magic a bit. Wasn't that the whole point of it? And I do think magic does follow some "rules" of science as well:

"Magic seems to follow the first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, which states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another. For example, turning on a light would seem to produce energy; however, it is electrical energy that is converted."

I do know that some fiction readers like the idea that "magic is just science we don't understand" and want to maintain it in the MCU. They must LOVE Kurt Vonnegut's and Arthur C. Clarke's views on this matter!

[Albert1981]

Marvel magic users do not "create something out of nothing." The Marvel Universe contains both Marvel science and Marvel magic. It always has. Both are equally valid in Marvel stories. Neither rules over the other.

Oh, I didn't know that. Thank you for sharing that information with me!

[DigiCom]

"Magic seems to follow the first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, which states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another. For example, turning on a light would seem to produce energy; however, it is electrical energy that is converted."

Note the bolded.

[Albert1981]

Note the bolded.

I've noted it!

[Clea]

I found a pretty good coffee-table book on Doc Strange, The Mysterious World of Dr. Strange, for cheap ($5) at a retail store this week. Looks like this was originally published in 2016, so it has relatively up to date information, lots of good text essays, character profiles and photos from the different eras.

https://www.dk.com/uk/book/978024127...octor-strange/

Hypestyle, I wanted to thank you for this book recommendation. I just received a copy today. I'm impressed with it. It's quite comprehensive.

[Albert1981]

An excellent and easy to understand description of Brandon Sanderson's Laws of Magic:

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Sanderson%27s_Laws_of_Magic

I particularly like how the article explained the differences between "soft" and "hard" magic:

"Mysterious magic" (or "soft magic"), which has no clearly defined rules, should, in genre fantasy, not solve problems, although it may create them. Soft magic in genre fantasy is usually used to create a sense of awe and wonder, and the workings of it aren't known to the reader and most characters. Brandon has said that J.R.R. Tolkien and George R.R Martin's use of magic is a good example of a soft magic system.

"Hard magic" on the other hand has rules explicitly described by the author, meaning that the reader can understand the magic so that solving problems with it doesn't seem to "mystically make everything better". Instead, it's the characters' wit and experience that solves the problems. This makes magic a tool which can be used to solve problems and enhance the story. L.E. Modesitt Jr. and Melanie Rawn, according to Brandon, write in this way.

The middle ground is a situation where the reader knows some of the limits and possibilities of the magic but doesn't understand its workings. Brandon has cited the magic in J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter series as a great example."

Looking forward to seeing what approach the MoM will take. I have read that if the story takes place from non-magic users' perspectives, soft magic is the way to go. But if it takes place from magic users' perspectives, hard magic is more suitable.

[Tulku]

To be fair to Strange, I doubt he had much time to shoot pool when he was a med student. He probably gets most of his sports entertainment (and bad poker playing tips) from ESPN.

Speaking of ESPN, the only time I can recall seeing a TV in the Sanctum was in a rather demented story called "Call Waiting" in Marvel Superheroes Special #5, 1991. Wong had a tiny portable TV. It came in handy though, because trolls were manipulating the airwaves with a commercial designed to trick desperate people to call Strange so that he'd chant spells over the phone. Strange was able to hear the commercial and figure out the trolls' nefarious plans. Don't ask. Anyway, you'd think that if Strange wanted to watch sports, he'd get himself a much nicer big screen tv. Aside from Wong's pathetic little tv here, have they ever shown a TV in the Sanctum?

I'd have to do more research than I have time for to verify this, but I am almost certain that, during Roy Thomas' run on "Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme" there were scenes with the Sanctum gang watching television. After all, at the time Rintrah was part of the group and he liked to use disguises of old movie actors. He must have seen them somewhere. I also have a strong memory of Imei asking Sarah why the people on the TV were laughing so hard at everything the man on TV said, and Sarah explained the concept of a laugh-track to her.

Dang, my memory is just filled with useless information!!!!

And, just to add to the "magic creates something from nothing" comments: yeah, that's not exactly how it works. It takes effort to do magic. Think of it like physical effort. How does Spider-Man lift heavy weights? Does he do it "out of nothing"? No, he uses his muscles, but because of his spider stamina, it generally doesn't show like it is any great effort unless it is a really heavy weight. He doesn't seem to tire--but eventually he does. Magic is the same way. It takes effort to magic up things...but small stuff (like creating or transporting money) doesn't take all that much effort and so it seems like there is no strain....but Doc kept doing it for, oh, four hours straight, he would get very tired. The energy is still expended. Larger spells take more effort and tire him out more. And larger spells have other side effects that he generally tries to avoid if he can.

I forget where, but I recall where Strange reluctantly uses a "refresher" spell to re-energize himself--but I recall him doing it reluctantly because he knows he will pay for it (with utter exhaustion) later. That was probably in a Roger Stern story. It is the sort of touch that Stern was so great in adding to the stories.

[Clea]

I'd have to do more research than I have time for to verify this, but I am almost certain that, during Roy Thomas' run on "Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme" there were scenes with the Sanctum gang watching television. After all, at the time Rintrah was part of the group and he liked to use disguises of old movie actors. He must have seen them somewhere. I also have a strong memory of Imei asking Sarah why the people on the TV were laughing so hard at everything the man on TV said, and Sarah explained the concept of a laugh-track to her.

Dang, my memory is just filled with useless information!!!!

And, just to add to the "magic creates something from nothing" comments: yeah, that's not exactly how it works. It takes effort to do magic. Think of it like physical effort. How does Spider-Man lift heavy weights? Does he do it "out of nothing"? No, he uses his muscles, but because of his spider stamina, it generally doesn't show like it is any great effort unless it is a really heavy weight. He doesn't seem to tire--but eventually he does. Magic is the same way. It takes effort to magic up things...but small stuff (like creating or transporting money) doesn't take all that much effort and so it seems like there is no strain....but Doc kept doing it for, oh, four hours straight, he would get very tired. The energy is still expended. Larger spells take more effort and tire him out more. And larger spells have other side effects that he generally tries to avoid if he can.

I forget where, but I recall where Strange reluctantly uses a "refresher" spell to re-energize himself--but I recall him doing it reluctantly because he knows he will pay for it (with utter exhaustion) later. That was probably in a Roger Stern story. It is the sort of touch that Stern was so great in adding to the stories.

I will dig through my collection and look for the tv references now because I'm curious. I think it's charming to imagine that after a busy day saving the world, Strange kicks back to relax by watching a hockey game on ESPN. Perhaps Wong convinced him to start watching General Hospital, too.

There is no such thing as useless information about Doctor Strange so far as I'm concerned.

[Albert1981]

I'd have to do more research than I have time for to verify this, but I am almost certain that, during Roy Thomas' run on "Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme" there were scenes with the Sanctum gang watching television. After all, at the time Rintrah was part of the group and he liked to use disguises of old movie actors. He must have seen them somewhere. I also have a strong memory of Imei asking Sarah why the people on the TV were laughing so hard at everything the man on TV said, and Sarah explained the concept of a laugh-track to her.

Dang, my memory is just filled with useless information!!!!

And, just to add to the "magic creates something from nothing" comments: yeah, that's not exactly how it works. It takes effort to do magic. Think of it like physical effort. How does Spider-Man lift heavy weights? Does he do it "out of nothing"? No, he uses his muscles, but because of his spider stamina, it generally doesn't show like it is any great effort unless it is a really heavy weight. He doesn't seem to tire--but eventually he does. Magic is the same way. It takes effort to magic up things...but small stuff (like creating or transporting money) doesn't take all that much effort and so it seems like there is no strain....but Doc kept doing it for, oh, four hours straight, he would get very tired. The energy is still expended. Larger spells take more effort and tire him out more. And larger spells have other side effects that he generally tries to avoid if he can.

I forget where, but I recall where Strange reluctantly uses a "refresher" spell to re-energize himself--but I recall him doing it reluctantly because he knows he will pay for it (with utter exhaustion) later. That was probably in a Roger Stern story. It is the sort of touch that Stern was so great in adding to the stories.

That is a really interesting AND logical way of explaining the nature of Marvel magic. Thank you for sharing. And that Roger Stern story sounds AMAZING!!!