Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Albert1981]

I don't know this person. Is she a writer for any Marvel movie? Does she have a published fantasy novel? Instead of reading all these prospective BOOK writers _talking_ about creating a magic system for their non-shared universes, I suggest reading some actual Doctor Strange COMICS. Books are NOT comics and both are NOT video mediums. The Marvel Universe is a shared universe, that has been created by multiple, multiple, multiple writers and artists and editors over sixty years. Each of these creators have added and subtracted to subject of magic in the Marvel Universe. It's impossible for magic in the MU to be consistently and rigidly nailed down to these single creator "good" systems and rules (for other medium) that you post about. TBH, I don't think these systems ARE that good for a Sorcerer Supreme facing multi dimensional threats. Most of these you post treat magic as homogeneous and mono-cultural and usually hominid.


Stephen Strange does have an innate TALENT for magic -- and for surgery. Whether he has innate "magical powers" is probably something that could be argued, but I think they are powers that many people have, they just haven't developed, like Astral Projection or the Third Eye. He does have mystical abilities conferred by artifacts (it's what an artifact can do), but not in a way that suddenly made him a magician. And yes, he was taught by the Ancient One for a time, but he's been teaching himself every since then.

How does being self-taught equal NOT studying or practicing or learning??? Successful self-taught people probably practice as much if not more than those with teachers. Your critique of Sylvie Loki is flawed and somewhat sexist. I mean, you're complaining about female Loki's "cheap and lazy" self-taught enchantments, but you're fine with male Loki being able to use the same enchantments against Alioth instantly with ZERO study, teaching (self or by others), or practice?

Sylvie Loki was been practicing and learning her magical skills since she the TVA tried to prune her as a child. IIRC, that length of time was not specified, but clearly, it was a couple of decades at least, learning and practicing her magic.

Sylvie Loki is also NOT human. She's as innately magical or "divine" as the rest of the Lokis / Asgardians / Frost Giants. Do you think Classical Loki, Kid Loki, Alligator Loki, Boastful Loki, and President Loki are "cheap and lazy" magic users? Cause none of them revealed they had a teacher or that they had practiced and studied X number of years to master their magic?

Well, I play in the classical sense. So it takes me a LONG time and a great deal of frustration to learn theory, but also to play the pieces and studies I'm required to learn right. And I'm not including learning scales and arpeggios and getting a handle on ear training. So yes, musicians can go pro learning purely by ear and master all sorts of blues and country licks. But I'm talking about learning stuff that's almost impossible to be learned on one's own. That's how I see magic in MY opinion. Harry Potter and Ged had to go to magic school to learn and I prefer that approach of magical training. Strange thought magic was FAKE NEWS for SO LONG in his debut movie. Only when he saw hands growing on his hands, did he start thinking that that bald broad might be on to something. What's the point of schools, if we can all be self-taught? (I can't believe I'm actually defending schools, because I actually HATED going to them as a kid, but here we are).

Maybe that chick I referred to hasn't written anything of importance, I still think she has some solid ideas on how to write fantasy fiction (in MY opinion). Sure books, comic books, card games, tabletop games, video games, cartoons, movies and television are different mediums. But since we're talking about MAGIC here, I don't think it's unreasonable to have ideas flow between them. It's already happening. I heard the next Final Fantasy game will be borrowing elements from television shows like the Witcher and Game of Thrones. And just because folks haven't had their works published themselves, doesn't mean what they write doesn't have merit. That would be like saying art critics can't criticize painters and sculptors because they don't know how to paint and sculpt themselves!

I don't mind self-learning at all. It's even harder to learn that way in my opinion. And I have no problem with Wanda learning from that big-ass book of hers. I would have preferred it if WandaVision had Agatha "hate-teaching" Wanda a little bit more, but I'm fine with how things went down.

You can't be serious thinking that I'm sexist for saying that I wasn't thrilled that Sylvie learned her magic on her own off-screen? You can't be! Hiddleston's Loki WAS taught by his mother, Frigga. I understand why you think he wasn't, but there was a deleted scene from the Dark World that sort of explained how Frigga shared her magic with her adopted son:



My preference is if men AND women are taught magic by the experts in that field. You can build interesting relationships that way, I feel. I liked Loki's dynamic with his mother. The MCU is just full of characters with "daddy issues" (this is quite prevalent in fiction in general too). I like it that Loki and Thor have an interesting relationship with their mom. I wish Marvel Studios would have explored a little bit more of Loki's relationship with Frigga in his own show. The romantic stuff in the Marvel movies and shows often feel REALLY shoehorned in for me to take too seriously. I'm REALLY enjoying the Loki series as a whole, and I'm grateful they're explaining time travel/alternate realities in a detailed AND entertaining way. But the romance between the main characters feels REALLY awkward to me (and I like Hiddleston and Di Martino)!

Oh, and thanks for telling me about Strange's innate talent for magic. I just happen to think it's very cool that Stephen is one of the very few magic users in fiction that actually had to learn magic through rigorous training because he wasn't born with any magical powers.

[Albert1981]

It is important to actually read the comics for yourself before critiquing them, I agree. Otherwise, it's like forming an opinion about a movie based only on movie reviews, online chat sites, and books about screenwriting.

I'm mostly talking about the movies and the shows. I WILL be getting into Strange in the comic books in the autumn when his new book comes out. I'm not really rigid about the "rules" of magic in the live-action stuff. I prefer as much consistency as possible, but nothing will ever be perfect so I'm cool if some things aren't explained. I actually don't mind it if the rules are even a little bit "flexible". I also have no problems with deus ex machinas if they're EARNED. Storytellers often need deus ex machinas and I fully understand that. I just don't want them to be done cheaply.

[DigiCom]

In superhero comics, a human being born with magic is actually pretty uncommon. Looking at the big names, most of them were either trained (Strange, Magik, Wanda, Shaman, etc.), studied on their own (Constantine), or are empowered by an artifact (a lot of folks at DC).

And I've brought up the rules Marvel already had before.

[GenericUsername]

My preference is if men AND women are taught magic by the experts in that field. You can build interesting relationships that way, I feel. I liked Loki's dynamic with his mother. The MCU is just full of characters with "daddy issues" (this is quite prevalent in fiction in general too). I like it that Loki and Thor have an interesting relationship with their mom. I wish the Marvel Studios would have explored a little bit more of Loki's relationship with Frigga in his own show. The romantic stuff in the Marvel movies and shows often feel REALLY shoehorned in for me to take too seriously. I'm REALLY enjoying the Loki series as a whole, and I'm grateful they're explaining time travel/alternate realities in a detailed AND entertaining way. But the romance between the main characters feels REALLY awkward to me (and I like Hiddleston and Di Martino)!

Loki also learned his off screen since they cut that from his lore in the films. So they are the same. Originally in comics he learns magic from Karnilla, Queen of the Norns. Neither magic from his mother nor Karnilla actually happens. And the Loki in this show hasn't even learned what Loki previously learned from the main timeline. So his first realization of his powers comes from a moment shared with Sylvie.

And I have no problem with Wanda learning from that big-ass book of hers. I would have preferred it if WandaVision had Agatha "hate-teaching" Wanda a little bit more, but I'm fine with how things went down.

Wanda's story is far from over and she was just learning about her powers at the end of her show. We have no idea if or when she'll take magic training yet.

[Albert1981]

In superhero comics, a human being born with magic is actually pretty uncommon. Looking at the big names, most of them were either trained (Strange, Magik, Wanda, Shaman, etc.), studied on their own (Constantine), or are empowered by an artifact (a lot of folks at DC).

And I've brought up the rules Marvel already had before.

I thought Wanda and Magik got their magic from their mutant genes. And wasn't Constantine descended from a family of noted sorcerers? I just thought Stephen was unique in that he had nothing to do with magic before going to Tibet/Nepal. Oh, yes I know the rules of Marvel magic have been discussed quite extensively here. I think for the movies/shows, it's still a work in progress though!

I do think it's funny that the "price" of learning magic got a whole LOT cheaper in Marvel Comics recently:

https://screenrant.com/doctor-strang...a-learn-magic/

[Albert1981]

Loki also learned his off screen since they cut that from his lore in the films. So they are the same. Originally in comics he learns magic from Karnilla, Queen of the Norns. Neither magic from his mother nor Karnilla actually happens. And the Loki in this show hasn't even learned what Loki previously learned from the main timeline. So his first realization of his powers comes from a moment shared with Sylvie.



Wanda's story is far from over and she was just learning about her powers at the end of her show. We have no idea if or when she'll take magic training yet.

Yes, Loki learned his magic off-screen. But it was clear he was taught by somebody. And since Frigga was raised by witches, I assume she was taught by them just like Agatha was taught by the witches in WandaVision some 330 years ago. And yeah, multiple Lokis definitely confuse me. That's why I'm not the biggest fan of time travel/alternate reality stories.

Wanda definitely has a lot of story left (I don't feel the same way about Hiddleston's Loki though). We'll see if she "goes to school" to learn magic. I liked how Agatha "taught" Wanda about how runes could block other magic users' powers. That part was explained pretty well. My problem was for a witch (Harkness) that’s been hoarding power for centuries and has full knowledge of the Darkhold she sure went down fast. That's why I would have taken out some of the Fietro, Monica and SWORD stuff, and focused a little bit more on Agatha than WandaVision actually did. Show more of what Agatha could do, and make it harder for Wanda to defeat her.

[GenericUsername]

Yes, Loki learned his magic off-screen. But it was clear he was taught by somebody. And since Frigga was raised by witches, I assume she was taught by them just like Agatha was taught by the witches in WandaVision some 330 years ago. And yeah, multiple Lokis definitely confuse me. That's why I'm not the biggest fan of time travel/alternate reality stories.

Wanda definitely has a lot of story left (I don't feel the same way about Hiddleston's Loki though). We'll see if she "goes to school" to learn magic. I liked how Agatha "taught" Wanda about how runes could block other magic users' powers. That part was explained pretty well. My problem was for a witch (Harkness) that’s been hoarding power for centuries and has full knowledge of the Darkhold she sure went down fast. That's why I would have taken out some of the Fietro, Monica and SWORD stuff, and focused a little bit more on Agatha than WandaVision actually did. Show more of what Agatha could do, and make it harder for Wanda to defeat her.

It's not much better that it's off screen or cut. The MCU just doesn't seem to make the time or have it for many to be shown learning magic. But they still learn it. Whether it's them realizing it themselves or being taught it. And this Loki had neither.

[DigiCom]

I thought Wanda and Magik got their magic from their mutant genes. And wasn't Constantine descended from a family of noted sorcerers? I just thought Stephen was unique in that he had nothing to do with magic before going to Tibet/Nepal. Oh, yes I know the rules of Marvel magic have been discussed quite extensively here. I think for the movies/shows, it's still a work in progress though!

Magik's mutant ability is teleportation. The magic came through her tutelage by Belasco, AU!Storm, and eventually Strange.

Wanda is a complicated case, since whether her magic is tied to her mutant power has varied from writer to writer. But she wasn't any good at it until she started learning under Agatha.

John may have been descended from a long line of sorcerers with a predilection for ceremonial magic and insanely bad luck, but there has never been any indication that his powers came from that heritage. In fact, given that his creators come from an old-school hermetic tradition, magic in his book is almost always something you learn, not what you are.

Steven isn't even the first Marvel magician trained in Tibet... that honor goes to Anthony Ludgate, aka Doctor Druid (Eventually. It's a strange story ).

I do think it's funny that the "price" of learning magic got a whole LOT easier in Marvel Comics recently:

https://screenrant.com/doctor-strang...a-learn-magic/

The only time the "price" of magic gets mentioned is when Strange has to pay it. Seriously.

[Clea]

Found some adorable fan art by Instagram artist @reytherandomartist. Silly notions like 'the cost of magic' will come and go, but the love between a (sorcerer) dude and his (ghost) dog lasts forever.

AHyFXPsE_o.jpg

[Digifiend]

As a result of Stephen's demise, Strange Academy is closing.
https://www.cbr.com/strange-academy-...ange-one-shot/

[Charlie_1981]

As a result of Stephen's demise, Strange Academy is closing.
https://www.cbr.com/strange-academy-...ange-one-shot/

But it's interesting to see the asgardian twins with their mother and where this story is going to go.

[GenericUsername]

Magik's mutant ability is teleportation. The magic came through her tutelage by Belasco, AU!Storm, and eventually Strange.

Wanda is a complicated case, since whether her magic is tied to her mutant power has varied from writer to writer. But she wasn't any good at it until she started learning under Agatha.

John may have been descended from a long line of sorcerers with a predilection for ceremonial magic and insanely bad luck, but there has never been any indication that his powers came from that heritage. In fact, given that his creators come from an old-school hermetic tradition, magic in his book is almost always something you learn, not what you are.

Steven isn't even the first Marvel magician trained in Tibet... that honor goes to Anthony Ludgate, aka Doctor Druid (Eventually. It's a strange story ).



The only time the "price" of magic gets mentioned is when Strange has to pay it. Seriously.

Wanda's magic was tied to chaos magic. Her mutant abilities just worked in tandem with that. Traditional magic was used to control the chaos.

[GenericUsername]

As a result of Stephen's demise, Strange Academy is closing.
https://www.cbr.com/strange-academy-...ange-one-shot/

It's weird that they don't mention one of their teachers being murdered too.

[Clea]

It's weird that they don't mention one of their teachers being murdered too.

Which teacher?

[Albert1981]

It's not much better that it's off screen or cut. The MCU just doesn't seem to make the time or have it for many to be shown learning magic. But they still learn it. Whether it's them realizing it themselves or being taught it. And this Loki had neither.

Yes, at least Wanda was shown to be "taught" magic in her own show. So that's why I was happy with the work Jac did there. She really did a great job there. Part of me wishes WandaVision was an EIGHT hour show. That way the stuff with Fietro, Monica, SWORD AND Agatha could have had more "complete" conclusions. But some were already complaining the series was too long, so I'm very pleased and happy with how WandaVision turned out. I think Falcon and the Winter Soldier could have benefited from a couple of more hours too. I liked and enjoyed that show as well, but the ending felt SERIOUSLY rushed to me. But I can't blame the writers for COVID interfering with their plans. Loki has been great so far, but I don't feel I have a good grasp on the main characters. Again, the series does a great job talking about alternate realities and time travel (and has some great visuals), but the Lokis haven't been all that fleshed out to me. Maybe season two will take care of that.

One thing I don't get is how the hell did Agatha give Fietro superspeed? I'm pretty sure he could run fast because of that neckless and not because he was naturally speedy. I don't think we'll ever find out the answer to that question.