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  1. #196
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    Pairing two characters together is only repetitive if they redo the same storyline over and over again like Warren needing her help to keep himself in check and whatever...I think that Hickman only likes a few pairings and all others he could care less about that don't get together during his run and I think that W/B are one of those pairings that he doesn't really care about...and I could say that Scott and Jean have run out of gas but...

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    Truly a lovely piece. And even though it's not painted artwork, I'll always consider the Jim Lee '92 version an all-time favorite...

    Lee definitely drew an amazing Archangel! I only wish he'd gotten to draw him more in the actual comics, aside from X-Tinction Agenda and a few group shot covers.
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  3. #198
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    Another great Lee image! And it even includes my 3rd favorite X-man (Colossus)!

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  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I think that Fraction seemed to be interested in Warren/Betsy. H put them togather in a time travel story with Dr. Nemesis, and I believe that one of his caption boxes stated that Psylocke was one of Warren's turn-ons.
    I don't know f it was meant to go any further than that.

    To be honest, I'd be perfectly fine with Archangel and Betsy remaining broke up as a couple. I think that their romance has run out of gas. I have some guesses as to who they may end up with in the future, but I really couldn't say for sure.

    I thought that it was a mistake to try and put teen Jean with Teen Beast when the O5 traveled to the future under Bendis. Teen Beast and Teen Jean were dull as shit. And, at least there would have been some real history between Angel and Jean, and not the ret-conned in romance with Beast.

    I think that the Archangel/Jean ship has sailed. I doubt if anyone is interested in writing them these days. Not when they can write Jean with Scott or Logan. That doesn't really bother me, though.
    I always loved that Fraction issue with Warren, Betsy and the X-Club and that's saying something because I pretty much despised his run. But he did bring Betsy back, even if he pretty much relegated her to wallpaper besides that X-Club issue. However, I don't think he had any plans for them as a couple since as we all remember, Fraction was only interested in a handful of characters.

    Warren/Betsy never got a huge push as a couple until Remender anyway. Especially since Claremont has never been a Warren fan and I believe he said that he broke them up because he felt Warren didn't deserve Betsy. They never seemed like one of the classic X-Men couples like Scott/Jean, Kitty/Peter, Rogue/Gambit until Remender brought them back together and gave them an epic love story on par with the Dark Phoenix Saga, which is also the first time I felt their love was really true and they weren't just casually dating like in the 90s.

    I would like to see Warren and Betsy come back together again but not if it's going to be another retread of Warren struggling with his Archangel persona and Betsy trying to help him psychically. We need new stories for them both, as individuals and as a couple. I do think it's a shame they've been separated yet again.

    I never understood why Teen Jean and Teen Beast were paired together. I don't know if that was because somebody read Claremont's X-Men Forever and became convinced that Beast was the true love of Jean's life if Scott or Logan weren't in play. Warren seemed the obvious choice since they actually did date and it did seem like she liked him back, just not as much as she liked Scott. And in X-Factor, they even teased the idea that they might reunite as a couple, which I always felt would have worked considering Scott was technically unavailable, but it became clear that they just wanted Scott and Jean reunited. From the way Warren was written in those early X-Factor issues, it always seemed as though all the other women he had been with (mainly Candy) were really just poor substitutes to get over Jean but he had only ever really loved Jean but after the Archangel transformation, that was sorta dropped. X-Men: Season One also had Jean attracted to Warren in that, although it was an interesting reversal because Warren doesn't like Jean the same way and he ends up breaking her heart.

    But you're right that I don't see any writers pairing Warren and Jean together. Even though they have their own history, Warren has always been in the background of characters like Scott and Logan and as long as those two characters are around, Jean won't be paired with anyone else. That's also the only reason why Jean was paired with Bishop briefly, because both Scott and Logan weren't there. Marvel still has a very misogynistic take on Jean that she's basically Scott or Logan's property and can't be with anyone else.

  5. #200
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    Another vote for archangel rather than regular feather winged angel. I never really cared for the character until he got his metal wings.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    OMG! You have succinctly typed how I felt about the whole blue skin/feathery-winged Warren era from the '90s.
    If they were going to bring back the feathery-wings, then they should've wiped away the blue from his skin and brought back classic Angel:

    He looked really weird with blue skin in his red costume. And when he was in the blue costume, it was just too much blue lol.

    I always liked his Avenging Angel costume and would like to see that brought back or the template for a new costume with that color scheme. As much as a I love the classic blue/white (or red variant) costume, it would be nice to see him in something else for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    The metal winged version of Archangel is easily my favorite version of the character. I just find the character to be way more interesting, and help him to stand out more. The feather winged version of the character is really just another guy who flies. There are plenty of other characters who can fly and have other powers to go along with it. Plus, it seems as though most writers have more stories to tell with the metal winged version.

    I don't know that I would say that Remender's story got Warren thrown completely into limbo. He had nice runs n Bunn's Uncanny X-Men, as well as Soul's Astonishing X-Men.
    In the DoX era, he was part of the assault team against Orchis, and had a role in Empyre: X-Men, and appeared in They were small roles, but he wasn't completely trapped in Limbo like some other characters are.
    Plus, he will have a main role in the upcoming X-Corps comic.



    I thought that Archangel regaining his feathered wings back in the 90's was a terrible mistake.

    I do agree that keeping the blue skin when he regained his feathered wings was foolish. I thought it made Warren look bad when he wore his old halo costumes, especially his red one.
    If I had to pick, I would have had Warren keep his metal wings and loose the blue skin.
    My favorite version of the character is when he has both the blue skin and metal wings, however.

    I initially liked the split personality. I thought that it helped him stand out compared to the rest of the X-Men.

    My problem with it didn't occur until later on. Archangel would get help from Betsy to get over the split personality, only for the next comic to have Archangel have problems with the spit personality again, and Betsy have to try and fix him again. I thought that it got tiring reading the same stories being told for what seemed like three years in a row.
    Although I prefer the feathered-wing version of Warren, I will say that it's probably more because he was less likely to be killed off or shunted to character limbo in that form. And Warren really became one of my favorite characters after UXF which hinges on him as Archangel. He wouldn't have had that storyline as regular Angel. And the issue with the feathered wings is that it makes for good imagery but it doesn't really give him anything to do especially since most other characters can fly without it. I always liked John Byrne's idea to give him a flaming sword since he needed some sort of offensive skill or weapon.

    I liked Bunn's UXM but my issue with it was that it brought back the whole idea of Angel vs Archangel which has become the basis for his character now and he seemed like a mindless drone for most of it. AXM was better though but it didn't last long. And while he's not trapped in limbo like other characters, I feel like that's a pretty low standard to apply especially considering Angel is one of the original X-Men so he should be one of the most prominent X-Men. He should be considered one of the A-Listers like Cyke, Jean, Storm, Wolverine, etc.

    I'd also be fine with metal-winged Angel with the regular skin since it gives him an offensive ability but still sticks to that classical Angel imagery. I know a lot of games like Marvel Future Fight depict him that way with the classical look but metal wings to match.

    I think the split personality also seems too reminiscent of Jean with the Phoenix and how long that baggage has been thrust on her. Like with Warren, she was stuck in a pattern where she couldn't control her powers and would have to be killed off.

  7. #202
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    Well CC said that had he stayed on Uncanny and not left to start X-treme X-men that he would have left Warren and Betsy together for the long haul and Betsy would have turned Neal down and they never would have been together. I think that Warren should start out as the feathered version but be able to Power up so to speak to the metal wings but only for a short time...

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    Well CC said that had he stayed on Uncanny and not left to start X-treme X-men that he would have left Warren and Betsy together for the long haul and Betsy would have turned Neal down and they never would have been together. I think that Warren should start out as the feathered version but be able to Power up so to speak to the metal wings but only for a short time...
    Did he? Because wasn't he the one who broke them up or was that another writer? I know Neal and Jean were supposed to be paired together but I guess after he couldn't get Jean for X-Treme X-Men, he changed his mind and paired Neal with Betsy. It does seem like since Jean and Betsy were two of Claremont's favs, at times he could treat them pretty interchangeably, like their strong rapport with Logan, both being paired with Scott (Claremont's plan was to break up Scott and Jean and have Jean go with Logan and then Scott and Betsy would end up together), and their whole power switch.

  9. #204
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    Claremont broke them up, had he not left to start X-treme Neal would have flirted with Betsy but she would have turned him down and stayed with Warren, he only broke them up because he was leaving and didn't want both characters, but because he didn't have a lot of time it was rushed and done terribly...

  10. #205
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    Ok that's what I thought. Personally I think he would have broken them up regardless. He was never interested much in Warren as a character. Jean was his favorite from the O5 and he really developed a liking for Hank as well. All his goodwill towards Scott was lost after Jean's return. Warren he scarcely used and even when he had him, he never seemed to have a high impression of him, although that may still be better than Bobby who Claremont basically never touched.

  11. #206
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    He looked really weird with blue skin in his red costume. And when he was in the blue costume, it was just too much blue lol.

    I always liked his Avenging Angel costume and would like to see that brought back or the template for a new costume with that color scheme. As much as a I love the classic blue/white (or red variant) costume, it would be nice to see him in something else for a change.


    Although I prefer the feathered-wing version of Warren, I will say that it's probably more because he was less likely to be killed off or shunted to character limbo in that form. And Warren really became one of my favorite characters after UXF which hinges on him as Archangel. He wouldn't have had that storyline as regular Angel. And the issue with the feathered wings is that it makes for good imagery but it doesn't really give him anything to do especially since most other characters can fly without it. I always liked John Byrne's idea to give him a flaming sword since he needed some sort of offensive skill or weapon.

    I liked Bunn's UXM but my issue with it was that it brought back the whole idea of Angel vs Archangel which has become the basis for his character now and he seemed like a mindless drone for most of it. AXM was better though but it didn't last long. And while he's not trapped in limbo like other characters, I feel like that's a pretty low standard to apply especially considering Angel is one of the original X-Men so he should be one of the most prominent X-Men. He should be considered one of the A-Listers like Cyke, Jean, Storm, Wolverine, etc.

    I'd also be fine with metal-winged Angel with the regular skin since it gives him an offensive ability but still sticks to that classical Angel imagery. I know a lot of games like Marvel Future Fight depict him that way with the classical look but metal wings to match.

    I think the split personality also seems too reminiscent of Jean with the Phoenix and how long that baggage has been thrust on her. Like with Warren, she was stuck in a pattern where she couldn't control her powers and would have to be killed off.
    I thought that Bunn's Uncanny did a pretty good job of ending the Archangel split personality. Warren was in control of his faculties while in his Archangel form. And, he was leading the army of sleeper mutants while in his Archangel form.
    And, this was at a time when Bunn wasn't using Warren's feather winged form.

    If you like the metal winged look with Angel's regular skin, than you may be in some luck. When Archangel was resurrected after the battle with Orchis, he was shown as having the metal wings and regular skin tone. It's the only time that I can recall seeing it though, so it may have just been a coloring mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Ok that's what I thought. Personally I think he would have broken them up regardless. He was never interested much in Warren as a character. Jean was his favorite from the O5 and he really developed a liking for Hank as well. All his goodwill towards Scott was lost after Jean's return. Warren he scarcely used and even when he had him, he never seemed to have a high impression of him, although that may still be better than Bobby who Claremont basically never touched.
    I know that CC has nver been a fan of Archangel, and doesn't like writing him. It's to bad, but I'm not to bothered by CC not wanting to write Warren. If Claremont doesn't like him, he shouldn't have to write him. I've never understood why writers are forced to write characters that they don't like writing instead of the ones that they enjoy working with. the writer is more likely to produce good stories if he/she is using characters that they like as opposed to ones that they don't like. They also seem less likely to write stories that damage a character if they don't like said character.

  12. #207
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    Well then again remember that some writers have butchered characters that they claim to love over the last several years so it goes both ways...

  13. #208
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    Well then again remember that some writers have butchered characters that they claim to love over the last several years so it goes both ways...
    Yeah, that can happen.

    But, I think that I would still rather take my chances with a writer who actually likes the character than the one who doesn't

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I thought that Bunn's Uncanny did a pretty good job of ending the Archangel split personality. Warren was in control of his faculties while in his Archangel form. And, he was leading the army of sleeper mutants while in his Archangel form.
    And, this was at a time when Bunn wasn't using Warren's feather winged form.

    If you like the metal winged look with Angel's regular skin, than you may be in some luck. When Archangel was resurrected after the battle with Orchis, he was shown as having the metal wings and regular skin tone. It's the only time that I can recall seeing it though, so it may have just been a coloring mistake.



    I know that CC has nver been a fan of Archangel, and doesn't like writing him. It's to bad, but I'm not to bothered by CC not wanting to write Warren. If Claremont doesn't like him, he shouldn't have to write him. I've never understood why writers are forced to write characters that they don't like writing instead of the ones that they enjoy working with. the writer is more likely to produce good stories if he/she is using characters that they like as opposed to ones that they don't like. They also seem less likely to write stories that damage a character if they don't like said character.
    Didn't it end with the Angel and Archangel personas both merging to balance out? I felt it was pretty ambiguous though about whether or not he had truly mastered control, especially considering his track record.

    I think there was also a brief scene or panel in Yost's X-Force where there was an Archangel but with regular skin and the blonde hair.

    I know Claremont used Warren after The Dark Phoenix Saga as an active member of the X-Men because John Byrne believed there should always have been one member from the O5 on the team. But as soon as Byrne was replaced with Cockrum, Claremont wrote him out pretty unceremoniously. Claremont always seemed more interested in a feud between Warren and Logan than between Scott and Logan. Considering Classic X-Men 1, Warren leaving the X-Men because of Logan, and then their enmity in Inferno and X-Tinction Agenda. I know part of that was because he wanted Apocalypse to have been responsible for Logan's adamantium skeleton and claws so there was supposed to be a link between him and Archangel.

  15. #210
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Didn't it end with the Angel and Archangel personas both merging to balance out? I felt it was pretty ambiguous though about whether or not he had truly mastered control, especially considering his track record.

    I think there was also a brief scene or panel in Yost's X-Force where there was an Archangel but with regular skin and the blonde hair.

    I know Claremont used Warren after The Dark Phoenix Saga as an active member of the X-Men because John Byrne believed there should always have been one member from the O5 on the team. But as soon as Byrne was replaced with Cockrum, Claremont wrote him out pretty unceremoniously. Claremont always seemed more interested in a feud between Warren and Logan than between Scott and Logan. Considering Classic X-Men 1, Warren leaving the X-Men because of Logan, and then their enmity in Inferno and X-Tinction Agenda. I know part of that was because he wanted Apocalypse to have been responsible for Logan's adamantium skeleton and claws so there was supposed to be a link between him and Archangel.
    There are other people who agree that Warren may not have been in full control of his split personality during Bunn's UXM. I've always interpreted it as Warren being in control because we never saw the psychotic version of the character again. And Warren was in control when Bunn had Adult Warren talk to Teen Warren. I guess we will never know how the story was supposed to end up going, seeing as Bunn didn't get to finish his story.

    I didn't remember Archangel appearing with regular skin and metal wings during Yost's run. Could it have been a small panel of him changing between forms? Not saying that it didn't happen.

    Didn't realize that there was supposed to be a link between Archangel, Wolverine, and Apocalypse. Or any of the back stry with Claremont, Cockrum, and Byrne.
    But, I never read stories like Inferno or X-Tinction Agenda until after they had been published and in hindsight. There's probably a lot of that kind of backstory that I am missing out on knowing. Other than Scott/Jean/Maddie. I know that part.

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