Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2021

[whitecrown]

There are other people who agree that Warren may not have been in full control of his split personality during Bunn's UXM. I've always interpreted it as Warren being in control because we never saw the psychotic version of the character again. And Warren was in control when Bunn had Adult Warren talk to Teen Warren. I guess we will never know how the story was supposed to end up going, seeing as Bunn didn't get to finish his story.

I didn't remember Archangel appearing with regular skin and metal wings during Yost's run. Could it have been a small panel of him changing between forms? Not saying that it didn't happen.

Didn't realize that there was supposed to be a link between Archangel, Wolverine, and Apocalypse. Or any of the back stry with Claremont, Cockrum, and Byrne.
But, I never read stories like Inferno or X-Tinction Agenda until after they had been published and in hindsight. There's probably a lot of that kind of backstory that I am missing out on knowing. Other than Scott/Jean/Maddie. I know that part.

True, we haven't really seen an out of control Archangel since then, although I'm not holding my breath since it seems like that's the default to revert to for most writers.

https://marvel-microheroes.fandom.co...rthington_III)
If you scroll down to "Other Costumes" in this Microhero thread, you'll see microheroes of a blue and white/silver version of his X-Force costume but he's got the normal skin and blond hair. The microhero says it came from Messiah War Chapter 5. It looks like it might be a transitional form between Angel and Archangel.

The Weapon X story left the true mastermind behind who was responsible for Wolverine's adamantium claws (since he was only supposed to get the skeleton, not the claws) ambiguous on purpose since Claremont always wanted to reveal that Apocalypse was behind it. There's more information here, explaining why Wolverine gets so feral around Archangel in Inferno. It also reveals that Archangel was supposed to appear in Wolverine's solo series for a battle with him in Madripoor.
http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...erine.html?m=1

[Thievery]

True, we haven't really seen an out of control Archangel since then, although I'm not holding my breath since it seems like that's the default to revert to for most writers.


If you scroll down to "Other Costumes" in this Microhero thread, you'll see microheroes of a blue and white/silver version of his X-Force costume but he's got the normal skin and blond hair. The microhero says it came from Messiah War Chapter 5. It looks like it might be a transitional form between Angel and Archangel.

The Weapon X story left the true mastermind behind who was responsible for Wolverine's adamantium claws (since he was only supposed to get the skeleton, not the claws) ambiguous on purpose since Claremont always wanted to reveal that Apocalypse was behind it. There's more information here, explaining why Wolverine gets so feral around Archangel in Inferno. It also reveals that Archangel was supposed to appear in Wolverine's solo series for a battle with him in Madripoor.

Thanks for sharing those comments. I had never seen the interviews before. The fight between Archangel and Wolverine in Madripoor sounds like it would have been fun to read.

Anyhow, regarding the Wolverine/Archangel rivalry, that pretty much came to an end during there time as teammates during there time togather on the X-Force teams.

For what it's worth, I've always liked the Scott/Logan rivalry better. Even when it didn't involve Jean. Or rather, especially when it didn't involve Jean. I just like the version of Logan who was the **** stirrer for Cyclops when Scott is leading. I've never cared for Logan as a leader. It went against his outlaw loner personality a bit to much in my opinion.

[whitecrown]

Thanks for sharing those comments. I had never seen the interviews before. The fight between Archangel and Wolverine in Madripoor sounds like it would have been fun to read.

Anyhow, regarding the Wolverine/Archangel rivalry, that pretty much came to an end during there time as teammates during there time togather on the X-Force teams.

For what it's worth, I've always liked the Scott/Logan rivalry better. Even when it didn't involve Jean. Or rather, especially when it didn't involve Jean. I just like the version of Logan who was the **** stirrer for Cyclops when Scott is leading. I've never cared for Logan as a leader. It went against his outlaw loner personality a bit to much in my opinion.

I wish Claremont hadn't left Wolverine so soon because he also planned a Casablanca type issue with Jean showing up.

I don't think any writer after Claremont really did anything with the Wolverine/Archangel feud. In part because he was the only writer at the time interested in pushing Jean and Wolverine as a couple, and also I guess because most other writers wouldn't know about the Apocalypse connection shared between Wolverine and Archangel.

The thing about the Cyclops/Wolverine rivalry is that it never lasted very long in the comics. It existed in Byrne's run but by the time of the Proteus Saga, Logan had developed a grudging respect for Scott. I don't recall these two hashing it out after that, not even in the 90s. It was The Animated Series that built up the rivalry a bit, but even then it wasn't until the movies that it became a big deal again, mainly because of the love triangle. The Ultimate Universe comics added to that and when Jean died in the 616 comics, that just allowed writers to continue giving Wolverine and Cyke more issues to fight over. Even in Claremont's run, Logan was being positioned as less of a loner and more of a leader as this blog post does a good job explaining more eloquently than I could.
https://them0vieblog.com/2012/05/10/...retrospective/

I will say though that I really liked Warren and Logan's friendship by the time of UXF so I'm glad their feud didn't continue. It wouldn't have made much sense by that point anyway but I think it worked for their early dynamic, especially since they didn't spend much time together. Classic X-Men 1 shows that Warren's issue with Logan is the fact that he's hitting on Jean (even though Warren himself isn't paired with Jean) and he doesn't think he's worthy of her. He's willing to give up Jean to Scott because Scott was his best friend and he likes and respects him, but Logan is another man altogether especially based on what little Warren has seen of this feral little man.

[K7P5V]

Anyhow, regarding the Wolverine/Archangel rivalry, that pretty much came to an end during there time as teammates during there time togather on the X-Force teams.

Good to hear the rivalry is over, I really enjoyed their bonding sessions during UXF

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Well during the Crimson Dawn mini they started to bury the hatchet, helped greatly that they were both friends with Betsy, well Warren was more than that but still...there's a scene where Warren is flying and carrying Logan through the city and they talk about all of that and such...

[Thievery]

I don't think any writer after Claremont really did anything with the Wolverine/Archangel feud. In part because he was the only writer at the time interested in pushing Jean and Wolverine as a couple, and also I guess because most other writers wouldn't know about the Apocalypse connection shared between Wolverine and Archangel.

The thing about the Cyclops/Wolverine rivalry is that it never lasted very long in the comics. It existed in Byrne's run but by the time of the Proteus Saga, Logan had developed a grudging respect for Scott. I don't recall these two hashing it out after that, not even in the 90s. It was The Animated Series that built up the rivalry a bit, but even then it wasn't until the movies that it became a big deal again, mainly because of the love triangle. The Ultimate Universe comics added to that and when Jean died in the 616 comics, that just allowed writers to continue giving Wolverine and Cyke more issues to fight over. Even in Claremont's run, Logan was being positioned as less of a loner and more of a leader as this blog post does a good job explaining more eloquently than I could.
https://them0vieblog.com/2012/05/10/...retrospective/

I will say though that I really liked Warren and Logan's friendship by the time of UXF so I'm glad their feud didn't continue. It wouldn't have made much sense by that point anyway but I think it worked for their early dynamic, especially since they didn't spend much time together. Classic X-Men 1 shows that Warren's issue with Logan is the fact that he's hitting on Jean (even though Warren himself isn't paired with Jean) and he doesn't think he's worthy of her. He's willing to give up Jean to Scott because Scott was his best friend and he likes and respects him, but Logan is another man altogether especially based on what little Warren has seen of this feral little man.

Joe Casey used the Wolverine/Archangel feud during his time on Uncanny X-Men. Logan wasn't happy with Archangel's style of leadership. Logan felt that Warren's slow, more methodical and corporate approach to getting rid of Vanishers drugs took to long. He wanted Vanisher to stop selling drugs to kids much sooner. I think that Logan even preferred that Nightcrwler would take over as leader over Archangel. Warren told Logan to take a hike. I believe that Chamber asked if something was wrong, and Warren told Chamber that there was no problem, he and Logan just didn't like each other.

I have to say that Wolverine's attitude towards Jean in Classic X-Men #1 wouldn't go over so well these days. Logan nearly came across as a harasser. These days Warren would come across as the good guy for attacking Wolverine when he saw Logan talking to Jean.

I've seen people say that Scott was Warren's best friend before. I've always read Warren's best friends as Jean, Beast, and the Betsy later on, after the two of them started dating. I think that Archangel and Betsy's friendship may have come to an end after Uncanny X-Men Disassembled though.

Good to hear the rivalry is over, I really enjoyed their bonding sessions during UXF

Yes, I thought that their time as friends and teammates togather in X-Force, especially Uncanny-Force was great to read. I really enjoyed it.

Well during the Crimson Dawn mini they started to bury the hatchet, helped greatly that they were both friends with Betsy, well Warren was more than that but still...there's a scene where Warren is flying and carrying Logan through the city and they talk about all of that and such...

I will have to re-read the Uncanny X-Men issues where Archangel and Wolverine team up over the Crimson Dawn. I didn't read them as being all that chummy togather. I took the story as them working togather to save Betsy. But, like I said, I will have to re-read those issues to make sure. I could be wrong.

And again, Casey brought back the Archangel/Wolverine rivalry during his time writing the X-Men.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I only said that they started to bury the hatchet, not that they completely did, and yeah the want to help Betsy played a part in it...though I don't think that any big X-friendship is ever truly over...

[whitecrown]

Good to hear the rivalry is over, I really enjoyed their bonding sessions during UXF

Yes, I loved this friendship. For that matter, the core trio in UXF of Betsy, Warren, and Logan was just great especially as these are arguably the two men she is closest to, besides Brian.

[whitecrown]

Joe Casey used the Wolverine/Archangel feud during his time on Uncanny X-Men. Logan wasn't happy with Archangel's style of leadership. Logan felt that Warren's slow, more methodical and corporate approach to getting rid of Vanishers drugs took to long. He wanted Vanisher to stop selling drugs to kids much sooner. I think that Logan even preferred that Nightcrwler would take over as leader over Archangel. Warren told Logan to take a hike. I believe that Chamber asked if something was wrong, and Warren told Chamber that there was no problem, he and Logan just didn't like each other.

I have to say that Wolverine's attitude towards Jean in Classic X-Men #1 wouldn't go over so well these days. Logan nearly came across as a harasser. These days Warren would come across as the good guy for attacking Wolverine when he saw Logan talking to Jean.

I've seen people say that Scott was Warren's best friend before. I've always read Warren's best friends as Jean, Beast, and the Betsy later on, after the two of them started dating. I think that Archangel and Betsy's friendship may have come to an end after Uncanny X-Men Disassembled though.

I don't remember much from Joe Casey's run besides the fact that it was unclear who was the leader between Kurt and Warren. Since I thought Kurt was supposed to be the official leader but he never really took to that role so Warren kept stepping up in his place. Interesting that they didn't like each other then and Warren admitted to that, because it's a far cry from their friendship in UXF and there's no material in between those two eras that really bridges the gap. Not even Yost's X-Force from what I remember, besides being on the same team then.

Logan's behavior can be problematic with other women, but it never bothered me much in Classic X-Men 1, I think because we are privy to Jean's thoughts so we know she is attracted to him as well. Interestingly enough, I've heard fans complain that Warren's behavior was also kinda problematic, since he was heavily flirting with Ororo before and kept making innuendos which she wasn't understanding. He only ceases when his attention is diverted to Logan and Jean.

I think in the O5 days the lines were clear that Warren and Scott were friends (I believe they were the same age) whereas Hank and Bobby (the oldest and youngest) were the other two pals. And of course Jean tended to hang with Warren and Scott. During X-Factor, it also seemed that Scott confided in Warren the most. I think those lines were blurred because of the 90s and 2000s eras when Hank was always paired with Scott on teams and Warren and Bobby were left out. Not to mention Warren and Bobby in Champions and then again in the New Defenders with Hank. What issues or stories would you say really established Warren and Hank's friendship besides being teammates?

I always felt that besides Scott, Warren was closest and Bobby. And then when Betsy came along, her as well. And I think by the time of UXF, there was a strong bond between him and Logan as well since he could count on Logan to do what Betsy wouldn't do, which was kill him. There hasn't been much Betsy and Warren interaction now but Betsy is being written really OOC and frankly most Betsy fans aren't pleased with her current incarnation. The lack of Warren is one factor.

Well during the Crimson Dawn mini they started to bury the hatchet, helped greatly that they were both friends with Betsy, well Warren was more than that but still...there's a scene where Warren is flying and carrying Logan through the city and they talk about all of that and such...

I don't remember that much but it's good that their rivalry was starting to end by then. Like I said before, they didn't really carry it on in the 90s, mainly because I think only Claremont was interested in pitting the two against each other, especially after Warren's transformation to Archangel made him a more equal opponent.

[Thievery]

Yes, I loved this friendship. For that matter, the core trio in UXF of Betsy, Warren, and Logan was just great especially as these are arguably the two men she is closest to, besides Brian.

Yeah, I loved that trio as well. For me at least, Uncanny X-Force stopped being as good a comic when they were removed as the core trio and the comic became more centered on Fantomex as a lead character.

I don't remember much from Joe Casey's run besides the fact that it was unclear who was the leader between Kurt and Warren. Since I thought Kurt was supposed to be the official leader but he never really took to that role so Warren kept stepping up in his place. Interesting that they didn't like each other then and Warren admitted to that, because it's a far cry from their friendship in UXF and there's no material in between those two eras that really bridges the gap. Not even Yost's X-Force from what I remember, besides being on the same team then.

Logan's behavior can be problematic with other women, but it never bothered me much in Classic X-Men 1, I think because we are privy to Jean's thoughts so we know she is attracted to him as well. Interestingly enough, I've heard fans complain that Warren's behavior was also kinda problematic, since he was heavily flirting with Ororo before and kept making innuendos which she wasn't understanding. He only ceases when his attention is diverted to Logan and Jean.

I think in the O5 days the lines were clear that Warren and Scott were friends (I believe they were the same age) whereas Hank and Bobby (the oldest and youngest) were the other two pals. And of course Jean tended to hang with Warren and Scott. During X-Factor, it also seemed that Scott confided in Warren the most. I think those lines were blurred because of the 90s and 2000s eras when Hank was always paired with Scott on teams and Warren and Bobby were left out. Not to mention Warren and Bobby in Champions and then again in the New Defenders with Hank. What issues or stories would you say really established Warren and Hank's friendship besides being teammates?

I always felt that besides Scott, Warren was closest and Bobby. And then when Betsy came along, her as well. And I think by the time of UXF, there was a strong bond between him and Logan as well since he could count on Logan to do what Betsy wouldn't do, which was kill him. There hasn't been much Betsy and Warren interaction now but Betsy is being written really OOC and frankly most Betsy fans aren't pleased with her current incarnation. The lack of Warren is one factor.



I don't remember that much but it's good that their rivalry was starting to end by then. Like I said before, they didn't really carry it on in the 90s, mainly because I think only Claremont was interested in pitting the two against each other, especially after Warren's transformation to Archangel made him a more equal opponent.

Ah, I never said that Warren and Scott weren't friends. I just don't view them as being best friends. In the O5 days, Cyclops and Angel were rivals over Jean.
Later on in X-Factor, I read Angel as being a bad friend to Scott. Warren should have left Cyclops alone when Jean came back, seeing as Scott was married to Maddie. Angel even realized that telling Scott that Jean was alive could end Cyclops' marriage to Maddie. Really, I don't think that Angel has received his share of blame for the problems that ended up leading to Scott and Maddies marriage, and the problems that occurred after them.

I thought that Beast did a good job of helping Warren get over what Apocalypse had done to him. He gave Warren his Archangel code name. I thought that there was a great freindship scene after X-Cutioner's Song where Warren and Beast rebuilt Harry's Hideaway. Sorry that I don't have the issue numbers off of the top of my head. I feel that Beast did the best job of helping Warren overcome what Apocalypse did to him than the rest of the O5.

I still read Jean as Angel's closest friend during the O5 days. Jean had some friendship with Warren during the Angel/Jean/Cyclops days, while Scott and Angel were rivals.

As for Iceman, I really feel as though his friendship with Archangel has started to fall by the wayside. They haven't been on the same team in a while, and they hardly interact anymore. I see Bobby's best friends as Rogue and Cannonball. But, then I really liked the Iceman/Rogue/Cannonball trio from Carey's X-Men. Maybe that clouds my judgement a little.

I've never really read the end of Archangel and Betsy's relationship as a problem in Excalibur, nor a problem with Betsy's characterization. Most of the complaints that I have seen that involve Excalibur rotate around fans' unhappiness that Gambit, Rouge, and Jubilee aren't used as often as readers would prefer.

I'm also glad that Archangel and Wolverine's feud came to an end in the 90's. I think that they make for a better team than enemies.

[Thievery]

So, we know that Archangel will be appearing in the upcoming X-Corp comic.

It will be nice to see Warren interact with Monet again. I have always thought that they would make good teammates. I'm disappointed that Magik won't be with them however.

Now, are there any other characters that Warren fans would like to see him interact with.

Who do you think would be interesting to read as Archangel's teammates? Who do you think would be the most interesting characters that would make a good teammate for Archangel? How do you think that they would interact, and why would you want to see it?

[Havok83]

So, we know that Archangel will be appearing in the upcoming X-Corp comic.

It will be nice to see Warren interact with Monet again. I have always thought that they would make good teammates. I'm disappointed that Magik won't be with them however.

Now, are there any other characters that Warren fans would like to see him interact with.

Who do you think would be interesting to read as Archangel's teammates? Who do you think would be the most interesting characters that would make a good teammate for Archangel? How do you think that they would interact, and why would you want to see it?

We dont know that she wont

[SJNeal]

If it's only a mini series, there's a good chance we won't get a full cast. Which I'm actually fine with. More panel time for Warren and Monet.

[frostedemma]

We dont know that she wont

Magik is already in New Mutants, a war captain and there's also the probability she'll be part of the X-men team, even Logan can't be in this many positions.

[frostedemma]

If it's only a mini series, there's a good chance we won't get a full cast. Which I'm actually fine with. More panel time for Warren and Monet.

I don't know where people got the idea it's a mini series from, it's a monthly on-going.