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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    True, but I find the videos on the subject to be the worse culprits. There is one in particular that I can't help but continually shake my head from. The biggest exaggerations and points of denigration seem to always stem from Maddie, the affair, and Xavier's death. I can't help but wonder why? By this, I don't mean the criticism, but the need to let everyone else know and hate the character.
    Because tearing characters down is easier then building other characters up.

  2. #197
    Incredible Member Anodyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    They said for years...he got some brain damage as a kid from him and Alex jumping with one parachute and him smacking his head hard in the landing. and Madelyne as Anodyne was given healing powers and healed that damage. So a clone would not have that damage...but yes to the visor giving him better control...he should not need it or the glasses to control his powers...but uses the visor to give him better control.
    When Madelyne learned the cost of her Anodyne powers, she asked Loki to take them back. Loki then undid all the healing she'd done. But if she had Jean's genes, why did the Firefountain give her powers in the first place? The magic was supposed to work only on normal humans. My theory was that Anodyne was the awakening of Maddie's powers: telepathy for psychological healing, cellular-level psychokinesis for physical healing. Loki was able to take them from her because she didn't realize they were truly hers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Scott walking out on Maddie and Nathan is it for me....sorry...but even though Jean came back he could either have taken them with him to NYC or (being generous here due to travel time between Alaska and NYC) been gone for 2 days to see Jean was alive, catch her up on what is going on and that he is married with a kid, and gone home to work out his issues with Maddie....either work it out or get a divorce.
    IMHO Scott's behavior would have been more credible if he'd blurted out "Jean's alive!" before he could stop himself. Maddie would have been upset, but she would have understood the situation instead of being caught off-guard at seeing Scott and Jean holding hands on the monitor. She would have been far less vulnerable to S'ym's trickery. And she could have made a rational decision about what to do about her marriage.
    Last edited by Anodyne; 03-01-2021 at 03:16 PM.
    Beverly Allen, the Bee--with honey and stinger.

    "If humans have souls, then clones will have them, too."--Arthur Caplan

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    IMHO Scott's behavior would have been more credible if he'd blurted out "Jean's alive!" before he could stop himself. Maddie would have been upset, but she would have gotten over her anger before she was tricked by S'ym. And she could have made rational choices about what to do about her marriage.
    I think it is a little more than that...as I said above it is all on the writer for making Scott a feckless douche...but if he had just acted in a responsible manner towards his wife and kid and not ran off to relive his teen glories with his oldest friends Maddie may have had a support network when they all found out the truth and she may never have gone all darkside.

  4. #199
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Since the site was sold, the only worthwhile thing about CBR are the forums.

  5. #200
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    When it comes to Maddie and Scott for me its always going to be a matter of mental health. Its not about chasing glory days, but a fact that marrying a woman who was identical to your long time girl friend/fiance who killed herself was a sign he was not ok. If Cyclops were a real person, there are strong indicators the guy suffers severly from PTSD from multiple traumas in his life. Imagine your best friend having their significant other kill themselves then they go on to date someone who looks the same. I don't know about you but I'd at least have several "this is not healthy" talks with them. Instead all of those closest to Cyke endorsed the pairing. I know at the time the writers were not thinking about mental health, but to me it makes him come off as more realistic then many others. I might just be a Cyke apologist but that's seriously how I've read it. Xavier, Alex, Corsair, anyone should have stepped in and try to get Cyke help or talk him out of it, instead of telling him he needs to get over Jean and not miss an opportunity to marry her clone. (Again I know at the time Clairmont did not intend the clone story, but it also doesn't change the fact that she looked so identical it messed with everyone she ran into).

    Side note: Also for me, I know when this topic comes up a lot people jump between what Cyclops should have done vs what the writers intended. At my local comic shop, the owner there likes to both blame Cyclops for the situation, but then deny defending Cyke because Clairmont never intended Maddie to be a clone. For me it should be 1 or the other. You can either blame editorial mandate (so Maddie becomes a clone, and Cyke was written out of character) or you have to look at it for the story that was written. A man who watched his fiance kill herself goes on to marry her clone (who if I remember used telepathy to make him fall for her faster, and no one steps in the way for the mental health issue that it is.)
    Last edited by Cyked; 03-02-2021 at 05:45 AM. Reason: Side Note Thoughts

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyked View Post
    When it comes to Maddie and Scott for me its always going to be a matter of mental health. Its not about chasing glory days, but a fact that marrying a woman who was identical to your long time girl friend/fiance who killed herself was a sign he was not ok. If Cyclops were a real person, there are strong indicators the guy suffers severly from PTSD from multiple traumas in his life. Imagine your best friend having their significant other kill themselves then they go on to date someone who looks the same. I don't know about you but I'd at least have several "this is not healthy" talks with them. Instead all of those closest to Cyke endorsed the pairing. I know at the time the writers were not thinking about mental health, but to me it makes him come off as more realistic then many others. I might just be a Cyke apologist but that's seriously how I've read it. Xavier, Alex, Corsair, anyone should have stepped in and try to get Cyke help or talk him out of it, instead of telling him he needs to get over Jean and not miss an opportunity to marry her clone. (Again I know at the time Clairmont did not intend the clone story, but it also doesn't change the fact that she looked so identical it messed with everyone she ran into).

    Side note: Also for me, I know when this topic comes up a lot people jump between what Cyclops should have done vs what the writers intended. At my local comic shop, the owner there likes to both blame Cyclops for the situation, but then deny defending Cyke because Clairmont never intended Maddie to be a clone. For me it should be 1 or the other. You can either blame editorial mandate (so Maddie becomes a clone, and Cyke was written out of character) or you have to look at it for the story that was written. A man who watched his fiance kill herself goes on to marry her clone (who if I remember used telepathy to make him fall for her faster, and no one steps in the way for the mental health issue that it is.)
    I don't remember that being mentioned in story...but I do know she somehow used her latent abilities from time to time such as to protect herself from the Marauders.

    As far as Scott's issues...he really does need to own up to his failings...especially with regards to how he treated Maddie. He walks out on her for Jean, and after Maddie's 'death' in Inferno basically acts like Maddie was meaningless and the Jean is Nathan's mom. Everyone in this situation needs probably several sessions a week on Samson's couch.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I don't remember that being mentioned in story...but I do know she somehow used her latent abilities from time to time such as to protect herself from the Marauders.

    As far as Scott's issues...he really does need to own up to his failings...especially with regards to how he treated Maddie. He walks out on her for Jean, and after Maddie's 'death' in Inferno basically acts like Maddie was meaningless and the Jean is Nathan's mom. Everyone in this situation needs probably several sessions a week on Samson's couch.
    I'll have to look it up after I get out of work. I'm rather sure it comes up in Inferno. As for Cyclops not owning up to his failings, that's the bulk of early X-Factor up to Inferno. I am not sure what else there really is to do after Cyke spent issue after issue lamenting his poor choices. Its not like he joined X-Factor and never spoke of her until Inferno, and then never again.

  8. #203
    Mighty Member Kal-El Summers's Avatar
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    Being honest, Maddy's one of Claremont's biggest mistakes.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal-El Summers View Post
    Being honest, Maddy's one of Claremont's biggest mistakes.
    In what way? Creating her in the first place or where the story went?

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    In what way? Creating her in the first place or where the story went?
    creating her in the first place. Unless he was planning on revealing her to be Jean all along, her existence was kinda dumb

  11. #206
    Incredible Member Anodyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal-El Summers View Post
    Being honest, Maddy's one of Claremont's biggest mistakes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    In what way? Creating her in the first place or where the story went?
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    creating her in the first place. Unless he was planning on revealing her to be Jean all along, her existence was kinda dumb
    I wish Claremont had concluded the story by revealing that Madelyne's resemblance to Jean was an illusion created by Mastermind: Wyngarde made Scott and the others see Jean's face when they looked at Maddie, and made Maddie see her own face when she looked at Jean's photo.
    Last edited by Anodyne; 03-02-2021 at 04:45 PM.
    Beverly Allen, the Bee--with honey and stinger.

    "If humans have souls, then clones will have them, too."--Arthur Caplan

  12. #207
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    I wish Claremont had concluded the story by revealing that Madelyne's resemblance to Jean was an illusion created by Mastermind: He made Scott and the others see Jean's face when they looked at Maddie, and made Maddie see her own face when she looked at Jean's photo.
    I get that Claremont was big into soap opera tropes, which itself helped generate reader interest in these characters beyond your standard superhero fights.

    But goddamn, if Madelyne looked like Jean because of Mastermind, and Madelyne turned out to be Jean's jealous, scheming step sister or some other cliche like that, it would *still* make more sense than Madelyne's original story.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyked View Post
    I'll have to look it up after I get out of work. I'm rather sure it comes up in Inferno. As for Cyclops not owning up to his failings, that's the bulk of early X-Factor up to Inferno. I am not sure what else there really is to do after Cyke spent issue after issue lamenting his poor choices. Its not like he joined X-Factor and never spoke of her until Inferno, and then never again.
    Well I have to admit I can't find it. I must be misremembering Maddie using her power on Scott.

  14. #209
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    I wish Claremont had concluded the story by revealing that Madelyne's resemblance to Jean was an illusion created by Mastermind: Wyngarde made Scott and the others see Jean's face when they looked at Maddie, and made Maddie see her own face when she looked at Jean's photo.
    that definitely would have been a better solution for Maddie bc the minute he decided to keep her as a lookalike with no connection, the writing was on the wall for her

  15. #210
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    that definitely would have been a better solution for Maddie bc the minute he decided to keep her as a lookalike with no connection, the writing was on the wall for her
    I'll say It again- the only way It all makes sense is It Claremont saw Vertigo and misunderstood it, thinking It was a beautiful love story.

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