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  1. #661
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I don't believe it needs to be retconned. I wouldn't like if it was, actually.

    There is a scene in which Scott tells Jean he understands why she feels the way she feels for Logan. It's beautiful. We can see it's not easy for him, but he knows it's not her fault. He accepts that part of her better than she does herself, because he understands that she is not perfect (one of the many reasons why they're such a good couple). I mean, they shared a psychic rapport. He knew how much she truly loved him.

    I think the psychic affair is a worse case to make fans less upset about. You see, there are two double standards there: society downplays abuse when the victim is male and they exalt betrayal when the perpetrator is a married man (which makes the whole thing appear more vulgar and sordid than it was)... It has it's own echo chamber too that is even harder break apart.

    But, you know, it's not impossible. It just takes someone willing to approach the matter with sensibility and without playing favourites.




    After Schism, I hoped we may be going in this direction. Not because of the fight itself, but what triggered it: the way he left the decision on the shoulders of a young mutant who he knew was troubled ("You do what you feel you have to.")

    Sure, he takes the responsibility for her actions later. But I thought it was really problematic and out of character, even. But in a way that served the bigger narrative and the ongoing process of the mounting pressure of being the leader, you know? I thought it showed that he was really going too far.

    But no... the writers just excused him. Not even the fact that half of the mutants were leaving (again, not judging the fight or the justification itself) knocked some sense on him. He never questioned if their leaving meant he was failing them. He just kept on focusing on keeping everyone safe.

    Then, out of the blue, the writers go full-blame-it-on him with AvX. But he doesn't seem to regret that either. And then the O5 are brought to make him wake up... But all we get a silly revolution that meant nothing.

    Such a waste of those many years of story... If done well, it could have been so cool and memorable. And such a reward for the readers, for all those years building up to it, so he could emerge a better hero and leader in the end.



    Yes, fishing! Totally! I'd bet Chris and Philip took the boys to fish! Maybe Deborah and Katherine even joined too. It would be even more special to him because those were memories of his childhood with his family.

    Anyway, I'm sure there are more things I forgot. But I imagine he likes to do stuff along those lines.
    Your post reminded me of "Hobo Piss" Remender claiming Scott doesn't believe in free will, when I think someone who has actually bothered to read about the character would come to the opposite conclusion. Scott's issues with free will stem from the presumption of agency where it doesn't apply (likely a result of how Xavier recruited him), the guy believes in it too much rather than not at all. The illusion of choice he was offered as a teenager is still seen as an actual choice in his own mind, so he is unable to recognize that when he makes a similar offer that it isn't really a choice at all. He is ( or at least, WAS, during Schism/AvX) unable to see through the illusion himself at times.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  2. #662
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Your post reminded me of "Hobo Piss" Remender claiming Scott doesn't believe in free will, when I think someone who has actually bothered to read about the character would come to the opposite conclusion. Scott's issues with free will stem from the presumption of agency where it doesn't apply (likely a result of how Xavier recruited him), the guy believes in it too much rather than not at all. The illusion of choice he was offered as a teenager is still seen as an actual choice in his own mind, so he is unable to recognize that when he makes a similar offer that it isn't really a choice at all. He is ( or at least, WAS, during Schism/AvX) unable to see through the illusion himself at times.
    I hope you know by now that I think Scott is *all* about free will.

    Before I comment more about the rest, do you really think Scott had merely an ilusion of choice as a teenager?

  3. #663
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I hope you know by now that I think Scott is *all* about free will.

    Before I comment more about the rest, do you really think Scott had merely an ilusion of choice as a teenager?
    Being asked to join up with Xavier after what he had been through, when he was involved in a crime (likely a federal crime), albeit involuntarily, and had no where else to go besides back on the streets (and had just escaped a serious abuser) is not as much of a choice as it first appears. That's why I refer to what Scott had as an illusion of choice - much like people who agree to crappy employment terms being told it was of their own free will when the option is bankruptcy, homelessness, and the possibility of the state taking their kids away due to not being able to provide for them. That isn't free choice, it's duress. Xavier likely didn't realize himself what he was doing, but the end result was that he offered Scott a choice that only had one good answer.

    This gets into my feelings on Charles. I prefer the idealist who falls short of what he wants to be, the well meaning man who screws up under stress and takes a shortcut, or doesn't realize the full connotations of what he is proposing, rather than the MachiaXavier of later versions. The former can grow, or at least leave a vision behind when he falls. The latter can only grow more corrupt.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  4. #664
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Being asked to join up with Xavier after what he had been through, when he was involved in a crime (likely a federal crime), albeit involuntarily, and had no where else to go besides back on the streets (and had just escaped a serious abuser) is not as much of a choice as it first appears.
    Oh, I see what you mean. But I think he had the choice and he actually wanted to be there.

    I don't see it as he didn't want to face a very difficult life alone. I see it as he was offered something amazing that he really wanted to embrace. After feeling so rejected and exploited for so many years, someone actually wanted him and wanted to help him grow? It's all he ever wanted at that point. So I don't think he chose it because the alternative would be horrible. He chose it because it was a dream come true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    That's why I refer to what Scott had as an illusion of choice - much like people who agree to crappy employment terms being told it was of their own free will when the option is bankruptcy, homelessness, and the possibility of the state taking their kids away due to not being able to provide for them. That isn't free choice, it's duress.
    Got it. I guess we disagree more on a conceptual level, then. I think it's still a choice even when it's really hard to make it (or not to make it). And sure, there are different types and levels of duress that makes it more understandable when people make a certain choice.

    But the way I see it, free will isn't about fair choices. It's about the power of choosing to do something, even when that thing is the most impossible, unthinkable thing.

    Otherwise... does free will really exists at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Xavier likely didn't realize himself what he was doing, but the end result was that he offered Scott a choice that only had one good answer.
    Well... He was offering the best he thought he could offer: give the boy a home, educate him, help him control his power. Short of actually adopting him legally, what else he could have offered?

    Scott's optic blasts were a manace. Charles thought he could help him control them eventually. And he did. Scott can't stop the blasts, but he can modulate their strength.

    Should Charles have just given him some money and unleash Scott in the world? What if Scott actually killed someone? Imagine having that trauma on top of everything else...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    This gets into my feelings on Charles. I prefer the idealist who falls short of what he wants to be, the well meaning man who screws up under stress and takes a shortcut, or doesn't realize the full connotations of what he is proposing, rather than the MachiaXavier of later versions.
    Oh, I do too... That's how I always try to see him even when the writers are doing their best to screw him up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    The former can grow, or at least leave a vision behind when he falls. The latter can only grow more corrupt.
    And the former can have real relationships with the other characters... Complicated, imperfect, juicy relationships. I'm a sucker for that! :D


    Thanks for replying. Again, even if we don't agree, I do appreciate it. :)
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-09-2021 at 02:13 PM.

  5. #665
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Thanks for replying. Again, even if we don't agree, I do appreciate it.
    One thing about different ideas is that they can inspire new ways of looking at things that we didn't have before the conversation.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I don't believe it needs to be retconned. I wouldn't like if it was, actually.

    There is a scene in which Scott tells Jean he understands why she feels the way she feels for Logan. It's beautiful. We can see it's not easy for him, but he knows it's not her fault. He accepts that part of her better than she does herself, because he understands that she is not perfect (one of the many reasons why they're such a good couple). I mean, they shared a psychic rapport. He knew how much she truly loved him.

    I think the psychic affair is a worse case to make fans less upset about. You see, there are two double standards there: society downplays abuse when the victim is male and they exalt betrayal when the perpetrator is a married man (which makes the whole thing appear more vulgar and sordid than it was)... It has it's own echo chamber too that is even harder break apart.

    But, you know, it's not impossible. It just takes someone willing to approach the matter with sensibility and without playing favourites.
    I'm not sure, maybe they could incorporate this era into a potential relationship between Scott and Jean later but I don't see how. To me, the solution to Jean's feelings about Logan isn't to give into them if she wants a relationship with Scott (and yeah, Scott not recriminating Jean is a good thing and the first step in working that out), because nothing in their history makes me believe that they would make this decision.

    The psychic affair is always a touchy subject - I believe Scott did something wrong, full-stop, but I don't think it's the worst mistake a character has ever made or that it makes him irredeemable. And I've seen those latter arguments made before, per the echo chamber as you said.

    Someone with sensibility and not playing favorites? Where do we find someone like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    After Schism, I hoped we may be going in this direction. Not because of the fight itself, but what triggered it: the way he left the decision on the shoulders of a young mutant who he knew was troubled ("You do what you feel you have to.")

    Sure, he takes the responsibility for her actions later. But I thought it was really problematic and out of character, even. But in a way that served the bigger narrative and the ongoing process of the mounting pressure of being the leader, you know? I thought it showed that he was really going too far.

    But no... the writers just excused him. Not even the fact that half of the mutants were leaving (again, not judging the fight or the justification itself) knocked some sense on him. He never questioned if their leaving meant he was failing them. He just kept on focusing on keeping everyone safe.

    Then, out of the blue, the writers go full-blame-it-on him with AvX. But he doesn't seem to regret that either. And then the O5 are brought to make him wake up... But all we get a silly revolution that meant nothing.

    Such a waste of those many years of story... If done well, it could have been so cool and memorable. And such a reward for the readers, for all those years building up to it, so he could emerge a better hero and leader in the end.
    There was plenty of wasted opportunities during those years, and if we had been shown other perspectives I think that era would've been more fondly received.

    I'm curious, what do you think would have been in-character for Scott to have said in that instance? Do it? Or run away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yes, fishing! Totally! I'd bet Chris and Philip took the boys to fish! Maybe Deborah and Katherine even joined too. It would be even more special to him because those were memories of his childhood with his family.

    Anyway, I'm sure there are more things I forgot. But I imagine he likes to do stuff along those lines.
    Fishing is great. I swear I read a fic once where Scott, being the father-figure to the Cuckoos, took one or all of them out fishing for father-daughter bonding time. It was good, but I can't find it.
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  7. #667
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    One thing about different ideas is that they can inspire new ways of looking at things that we didn't have before the conversation.
    Yeah, it's been quite nice seeing the discussions here lately.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
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  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Oh, I see what you mean. But I think he had the choice and he actually wanted to be there.

    I don't see it as he didn't want to face a very difficult life alone. I see it as he was offered something amazing that he really wanted to embrace. After feeling so rejected and exploited for so many years, someone actually wanted him and wanted to help him grow? It's all he ever wanted at that point. So I don't think he chose it because the alternative would be horrible. He chose it because it was a dream come true.

    Got it. I guess we disagree more on a conceptual level, then. I think it's still a choice even when it's really hard to make it (or not to make it). And sure, there are different types and levels of duress that makes it more understandable when people make a certain choice.

    But the way I see it, free will isn't about fair choices. It's about the power of choosing to do something, even when that thing is the most impossible, unthinkable thing.

    Otherwise... does free will really exists at all?
    I agree with you completely here. I think Gray makes a good argument, and there's validity to it for sure, but I find myself on this side of this question every time.
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  9. #669
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    One thing about different ideas is that they can inspire new ways of looking at things that we didn't have before the conversation.
    Yes. Which is why I'm really grateful when people dispose of their time to share their perspectives with me. Nothing is more precious to anyone than their time. So for them to spend it on a conversation with me? I see it as gift. Thanks again. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I'm not sure, maybe they could incorporate this era into a potential relationship between Scott and Jean later but I don't see how. To me, the solution to Jean's feelings about Logan isn't to give into them if she wants a relationship with Scott (and yeah, Scott not recriminating Jean is a good thing and the first step in working that out), because nothing in their history makes me believe that they would make this decision.
    Oh... I didn't mean the poliamorous thing! Not at all! That's just total BS, unless there's an actual external factor messing with the couple.

    I'm hoping we'll be told it happened because Krakoa sucks a part of their psychic energy, or pushes them to live what it thinks they want (I mean, Krakoa builds stuff on its own, for people - as we saw for Kurt's tower-thing), or actually messes with their head so they think they've never been happier before, which makes them want to live there forever.

    If that's the case, it's not even about what Scott and Jean wants, but what Emma and Logan do...

    Either that or Sinister is screwing with them on a genetic level. Or the resurrection protocol is just faulty and they come back wrong (maybe it explains why the Five actually feel rejuvenated by it even?).

    Be as it may, it would actually be awesome if their spending more time together, away from Krakoa, made them look at each other and say: "what are we doing? That's not us..."

    Would you consider that a retcon? For me, a retcon would be Moira dying, being killed before her powers emerge, so this whole era never actually happens.

    I think we're disagreeing only on semantics here, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    The psychic affair is always a touchy subject - I believe Scott did something wrong, full-stop, but I don't think it's the worst mistake a character has ever made or that it makes him irredeemable. And I've seen those latter arguments made before, per the echo chamber as you said.
    I agree with you. He did something wrong. It hurt Jean. But it's not the worst mistake at all. You have to consider the circumstance in which the character was. Not so you can excuse him or remove his blame. But to understand him.

    Especially if you're a god-damn Jean Grey fan! Yes, she has a temper. But she's also one of the most understanding, forgiving characters there is. That's not to say that she should be: "Oh, I understand, my love, no problem at all, fell free to do it again, whenever you need it". No. She should have the right to be hurt, she should feel hurt. But she should also understand.

    And what comes after that? I think they would want to work on their (monogamous) marriage. I think it's possible they wouldn't make it, even. But I think they'd try with all their hearts.

    And we need to see this on panel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Someone with sensibility and not playing favorites? Where do we find someone like that?
    Louise Simonson? Let me have a chat with her and then let her write it. :D

    Seriously: give her ten issues of non-stop, non-nonsense dialogue between those two. Take a risk, Marvel, don't assume it won't sell. You keep giving character relationships less and less space in the comics and the fans keep losing interest on them. Maybe that's why? Try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    There was plenty of wasted opportunities during those years, and if we had been shown other perspectives I think that era would've been more fondly received.
    Yeah. I could have been epic. It could have been one of the greatest X-Men stories... :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I'm curious, what do you think would have been in-character for Scott to have said in that instance? Do it? Or run away?
    I think he would have given a direct order. If you think about it, it sounds a bit like a mafia Don, who never really gives the order to kill someone. Now, I'm not saying Scott calculated that and acted in bad faith. Let me repeat it: I'm not saying that.

    Here's what I think would be more in character: "take them out. Use minimal force if you can, but do whatever it takes. Take them out now".

    That would already be a Scott operating under a lot of stress, who is already crossing the line, but it's a Scott who is taking responsibility before the fact, not after.

    You see the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Fishing is great. I swear I read a fic once where Scott, being the father-figure to the Cuckoos, took one or all of them out fishing for father-daughter bonding time. It was good, but I can't find it.
    Oh, that must have been gold. What a brave man to take those girls to do something like fishing! Did Emma force them to go or they did it for anthropologic curiosity, like they wanted to observe that beast on its natural habitat? :D

    For some reason, though, this is something I actually see Logan being more likely to do, considering all the young characters he took under his wing...
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-09-2021 at 10:59 PM.

  10. #670
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I agree with you completely here. I think Gray makes a good argument, and there's validity to it for sure, but I find myself on this side of this question every time.
    Yep! I understand @Gray Lensman's argument too. I could even support it with some in-story facts. But, in the end, I think it boils down to personal interpretations. Which are actually fascinating on their own merit. :)

    I still want to reply to the rest of his message, though. I'll just let the forum breathe a little and see if someone else wants to join the conversation. :)

  11. #671
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yep! I understand @Gray Lensman's argument too. I could even support it with some in-story facts. But, in the end, I think it boils down to personal interpretations. Which are actually fascinating on their own merit.

    I still want to reply to the rest of his message, though. I'll just let the forum breathe a little and see if someone else wants to join the conversation.
    With regular writer changes, in addition to the character appearing in other books, I'm willing to bet we're all correct, depending on who the writer is at the time.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  12. #672
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I agree with you completely here. I think Gray makes a good argument, and there's validity to it for sure, but I find myself on this side of this question every time.
    It's nice to be able to have discussions - I think I have half the regulars in Jean's thread on ignore since they are trying too hard to transform the place into the "I Hate Scott Summers" thread, rather than actually doing anything to appreciate Jean Grey. I hope we never get to the point in here where we lose sight that this place is supposed to be about appreciating the character and stories around him.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  13. #673
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    With regular writer changes, in addition to the character appearing in other books, I'm willing to bet we're all correct, depending on who the writer is at the time.
    Oh, yeah. That's another echo chamber right there that the writers themselves love to strengthen: "Xavier was a jerk, he was building a personal army with teenagers".

    Except, when the O5 have their little graduation party, it's said they completed a normal curriculum. And 4 of them left the team and went on to universities. I think Scott applied as well and could have gone if he wanted, considering Jean is hoping that he would (why would she hope that if he hadn't applied and been accepted?).

    I'd argue that, of all of the teenager teams, the O5 were the team that least resembled an army. But yeah, when the writers decide to go on that route, and you see things from that perspective, everything gets murky and dark.

    Personally, I don't like that cynical view. I think it takes agency from the teens. No one questions Peter Parker or Johnny Storm desire to be a hero from an early age. Why can't the O5 have chosen it? Why do they need to be the victims who were "forced" to fight? Teenagers are amongst the most idealistic, pro-active people around... I prefer them to be heroes. And why not? When you look at Warren, for instance, it makes total sense. He was already a hero before Charles even found him.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    It's nice to be able to have discussions - I think I have half the regulars in Jean's thread on ignore since they are trying too hard to transform the place into the "I Hate Scott Summers" thread, rather than actually doing anything to appreciate Jean Grey. I hope we never get to the point in here where we lose sight that this place is supposed to be about appreciating the character and stories around him.
    There are a lot of mixed feelings there and unresolved anger. It's not easy being a fan of a character who was left dead for 15 years and now is just a wallpaper, constantly subjected to the male gaze of most writers, who live their fantasies of lust and anger through her.

    But I know what you mean... It can be very tiring. It was very tiring talking to some Cyclops' fans during the phase "I'm right. I was right. I'm right. 'Cause I'm right" too... Sometimes people get too involved with how they feel about a subject and anything that challenges it is seen as hostile and must be met with equal force...

    That's the power of all those echo chambers, after all. Sometimes you can make a dent on them. Sometimes it's best to retreat.
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-10-2021 at 02:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yes. Which is why I'm really grateful when people dispose of their time to share their perspectives with me. Nothing is more precious to anyone than their time. So for them to spend it on a conversation with me? I see it as gift. Thanks again.
    All of this positive activity lately has been great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Oh... I didn't mean the poliamorous thing! Not at all! That's just total BS, unless there's an actual external factor messing with the couple.

    I'm hoping we'll be told it happened because Krakoa sucks a part of their psychic energy, or pushes them to live what it thinks they want (I mean, Krakoa builds stuff on its own, for people - as we saw for Kurt's tower-thing), or actually messes with their head so they think they've never been happier before, which makes them want to live there forever.

    If that's the case, it's not even about what Scott and Jean wants, but what Emma and Logan do...

    Either that or Sinister is screwing with them on a genetic level. Or the resurrection protocol is just faulty and they come back wrong (maybe it explains why the Five actually feel rejuvenated by it even?).

    Be as it may, it would actually be awesome if their spending more time together, away from Krakoa, made them look at each other and say: "what are we doing? That's not us..."

    Would you consider that a retcon? For me, a retcon would be Moira dying, being killed before her powers emerge, so this whole era never actually happens.

    I think we're disagreeing only on semantics here, though.
    Ah, okay, gotcha. Yeah, what you described as a retcon is accurate, I suppose that's what I'd want; but your scenario about how distance from Krakoa could bring them to their senses is also good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I agree with you. He did something wrong. It hurt Jean. But it's not the worst mistake at all. You have to consider the circumstance in which the character was. Not so you can excuse him or remove his blame. But to understand him.

    Especially if you're a god-damn Jean Grey fan! Yes, she has a temper. But she's also one of the most understanding, forgiving characters there is. That's not to say that she should be: "Oh, I understand, my love, no problem at all, fell free to do it again, whenever you need it". No. She should have the right to be hurt, she should feel hurt. But she should also understand.

    And what comes after that? I think they would want to work on their (monogamous) marriage. I think it's possible they wouldn't make it, even. But I think they'd try with all their hearts.

    And we need to see this on panel!
    Yes, absolutely, Scott hurt Jean but he's not a monster. I could see them working through their problems after reaching the bottom.

    And they would absolutely try their best; Scott and Jean are so important to each other, you can't remove them from their history without also removing something important from each character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Louise Simonson? Let me have a chat with her and then let her write it.

    Seriously: give her ten issues of non-stop, non-nonsense dialogue between those two. Take a risk, Marvel, don't assume it won't sell. You keep giving character relationships less and less space in the comics and the fans keep losing interest on them. Maybe that's why? Try it.
    That could work, a third Cyclops & Phoenix Adventures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yeah. I could have been epic. It could have been one of the greatest X-Men stories... :/
    I love underdog stories, and that era had the X-Men as the ultimate underdogs, every hard-fought victory was fantastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I think he would have given a direct order. If you think about it, it sounds a bit like a mafia Don, who never really gives the order to kill someone. Now, I'm not saying Scott calculated that and acted in bad faith. Let me repeat it: I'm not saying that.

    Here's what I think would be more in character: "take them out. Use minimal force if you can, but do whatever it takes. Take them out now".

    That would already be a Scott operating under a lot of stress, who is already crossing the line, but it's a Scott who is taking responsibility before the fact, not after.

    You see the difference?
    Ooh, interesting, I agree. That's what I think he would have done, although I can see the argument that he would have asked her to standby. That hypothetical is so interesting to me,

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Oh, that must have been gold. What a brave man to take those girls to do something like fishing! Did Emma force them to go or they did it for anthropologic curiosity, like they wanted to observe that beast on its natural habitat?

    For some reason, though, this is something I actually see Logan being more likely to do, considering all the young characters he took under his wing...
    If I remember correctly, the girls wanted to spend time with him doing something other than X-Men stuff. They all had fun, it wasn't a long story I don't think.

    I'm a sucker for father stories and sibling stories, those plot elements basically get me hooked almost immediately.
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Oh, yeah. That's another echo chamber right there that the writers themselves love to strengthen: "Xavier was a jerk, he was building a personal army with teenagers".

    Except, when the O5 have their little graduation party, it's said they completed a normal curriculum. And 4 of them left the team and went on to universities. I think Scott applied as well and could have gone if he wanted, considering Jean is hoping that he would (why would she hope that if he hadn't applied and been accepted?).

    I'd argue that, of all of the teenager teams, the O5 were the team that least resembled an army. But yeah, when the writers decide to go on that route, and you see things from that perspective, everything gets murky and dark.

    Personally, I don't like that cynical view. I think it takes agency from the teens. No one questions Peter Parker or Johnny Storm desire to be a hero from an early age. Why can't the O5 have chosen it? Why do they need to be the victims who were "forced" to fight? Teenagers are amongst the most idealistic, pro-active people around... I prefer them to be heroes. And why not? When you look at Warren, for instance, it makes total sense. He was already a hero before Charles even found him.
    I think they saw the X-Men as an opportunity, but beyond that they each had personal reasons to become a team. And none of those reasons were duress from Xavier. I mean, they were mutants in a world that hated and feared them, they didn't have to become the team that would receive the greatest scrutiny in that regard; they could have done any number of things, but they chose to become the X-Men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    It's nice to be able to have discussions - I think I have half the regulars in Jean's thread on ignore since they are trying too hard to transform the place into the "I Hate Scott Summers" thread, rather than actually doing anything to appreciate Jean Grey. I hope we never get to the point in here where we lose sight that this place is supposed to be about appreciating the character and stories around him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    There are a lot of mixed feelings there and unresolved anger. It's not easy being a fan of a character who was left dead for 15 years and now is just a wallpaper, constantly subjected to the male gaze of most writers, who live their fantasies of lust and anger through her.

    But I know what you mean... It can be very tiring. It was very tiring talking to some Cyclops' fans during the phase "I'm right. I was right. I'm right. 'Cause I'm right" too... Sometimes people get too involved with how they feel about a subject and anything that challenges it is seen as hostile and must be met with equal force...

    That's the power of all those echo chambers, after all. Sometimes you can make a dent on them. Sometimes it's best to retreat.
    This is nice. It's understandable for some of Jean's fans to feel the way they do, I've said before I wish Jean hadn't been sidelined; the target of their ire is where I have issue with them. As I said before, Scott and Jean are so important to each other that their stories are inextricably intertwined (excepting these last few years). If Jean is brought up here I have no issues even if we're discussing the affair because that's all part of Scott's story.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

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