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  1. #676
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post

    Fishing is great. I swear I read a fic once where Scott, being the father-figure to the Cuckoos, took one or all of them out fishing for father-daughter bonding time. It was good, but I can't find it.
    The guy who had archived it doesn't post anymore, but since I had his account friended I managed to find the OneDrive link. Hope it doesn't get to truncated.

    It's mostly a fanfic about how the aborted romance between Tyke and Laura could have been re-established, with a starting point of just after The Black Vortex crossover - although the first chapters were written around the writer switch in the Cyclops solo series.

    Written by me, actually.

    https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?..._tqeI&app=Word
    Dark does not mean deep.

  2. #677
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    The guy who had archived it doesn't post anymore, but since I had his account friended I managed to find the OneDrive link. Hope it doesn't get to truncated.

    It's mostly a fanfic about how the aborted romance between Tyke and Laura could have been re-established, with a starting point of just after The Black Vortex crossover - although the first chapters were written around the writer switch in the Cyclops solo series.

    Written by me, actually.

    https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?..._tqeI&app=Word
    Oh wow, I can't believe I forgot that you wrote it! As soon as I have the time (work and school are my life now) I'll have to give it a reread. That specific scene of the father-daughter fishing trip stayed with me; I don't have kids yet, but I've helped my sister with hers so much I'm basically fully trained. Sons or daughters, I'm ready.

    We need more Scott dadventures in comics, in fics, everywhere basically.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  3. #678
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    All of this positive activity lately has been great.
    I believe I haven't thanked you personally yet for engaging in the discussions. Let me rectify it, please: thank you! I really appreciate it. :)

    Also, I’d like to thank you guys for the patience. Other than being very verbose, English isn’t my native language and I’m aware I murder it mercilessly in every post! Poor prepositions… they are the ones who suffer the most! :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Ah, okay, gotcha. Yeah, what you described as a retcon is accurate, I suppose that's what I'd want; but your scenario about how distance from Krakoa could bring them to their senses is also good.
    I think I should mention, though: I'd actually love if we left the Krakoan era by saying: "it actually never happened". Normally, I don't like this kind of retcon, but I'd be okay in this case because the story was set for this possibility from the start *and* it would be happening to all characters.

    What I wouldn't want is for them to came up with a gimmick for Scott and Jean in specific, to magically fix their relationship.

    But in any way, I thought you were talking about the two love triangles (Scott-Jean-Logan and Jean-Scott-Emma) pre-Krakoa. I meant that I don't want that to be retconned either. I want them to be resolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yes, absolutely, Scott hurt Jean but he's not a monster. I could see them working through their problems after reaching the bottom.

    And they would absolutely try their best; Scott and Jean are so important to each other, you can't remove them from their history without also removing something important from each character.
    Scott is *not* a monster at all. It's absurd to even suggest that.

    And yes. Scott and Jean are absolutely important to each other. As a fan, a person may not like their relationship, that's cool. But they should be able to understand why the characters do and they should be upset when the writers ignore or attack this relationship *because* it is such an important part of both characters.

    And you know what? I'd even risk saying that most people who don't like the relationship either don't like it because they'd prefer the characters to be with someone else and/or because they're stuck in those echo chambers.

    . "She was always cheating on him" - 4 (?) kisses to which she did not give her consent.
    . "She was not a good girlfriend/wife" - ignores countless of scenes of her being supportive.
    . "He was not a good boyfriend/husband" - ignore several scenes of his being supportive.
    . "Jean is more attracted to Logan than Scott" - ignores the countless of steaming hot, passionate kisses (including in public) and the fact they can't keep their hands off each other, even after 10+ years of marriage and 20 years as a couple!!!
    . "Scott is boring, Logan would be a better match" - ignores scenes in which Scott and Jean are happy, having fun, like the snowball fight in Central Park.
    . "He cheated on her" - he rejected having a physical affair with a woman he was attracted to and ended up having a psychic affair with said woman, after his mind was sequestered without his consent and he expresses repeatedly that he did not want a psychic intervention or feels safe in it. 2 of the 3 after scenes happens while he is piloting, with other people around (which certainly plays a role in his ability to resist it). He expresses regret for the betrayal in all the scenes and has to be pushed into it. Also, the affair is so emotional for him that when he sees Emma holding the body of her dead daughter(!), he doesn't offer a single word of comfort for her. Yeah, he loved Emma all right.
    . "He never had a choice of another girlfriend" - the other 3 boys had girlfriends back in the O5 days.
    . "Jean made him wimpy and weak" - she helped him overcome his fear of being intimate with someone, she helped him transition from a shy, awkward teenager boy to a confident man, she helped him navigate the thin line between being a compassionate leader and making the hard choices, she helped him truly connect and express feelings instead of compartmentalise and bottle up everything at the price of slowly losing himself. It was when he couldn't connect with her anymore (Morrison's run) that he was at his lowest, most weakened state. And what came after was only illusion of strength because when one doesn’t allow themselves to second-guess themselves, when they always assume they’re right, they don’t learn from mistakes and, at best, they become stagnant.

    I could go on and on just showing that those things people often give as arguments are simply not factual. It's fine that a fan doesn't like them together. But they should understand it's a matter of personal taste. And that's okay that they feel this way, but it doesn't mean the characters would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That could work, a third Cyclops & Phoenix Adventures.
    Well, for a change, I'd actually prefer if there was no enemy to defeat. It wouldn't even need to be a traditional comic book in which every single panel is drawn. Maybe we could get several pages of written text and some pages with panels when seeing the images would be interesting.

    I think there's so much to unpack, so much they'd want to finally say to each other…

    But yeah... we're not getting anything remotely like it any time soon. Last X-Men Monday confirms they're deliberately leaving everything very vague. Which makes me wonder why Percy isn't. I really don't like this imbalance and not only because it seems like a cheap tactic to just get fans speculating.

    But also because it's opening a whole new can of worms for the future. I'm not one to read homosexual subtexts in friendships (I get upset when people say Frodo and Sam were gay, for instance), but you guys realise that for much less than that talk between Scott and Logan in X-Men #7, they made Bobby gay, right? Not even bisexual. Gay.

    Note: I love non-heterosexual characters. But I don't like when they change a character's orientation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I love underdog stories, and that era had the X-Men as the ultimate underdogs, every hard-fought victory was fantastic.
    Yes. And, personally, I think it would have been even cooler if they had explored the price they were paying for those victories and if the characters leading the group would second-guess themselves about their choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Ooh, interesting, I agree. That's what I think he would have done, although I can see the argument that he would have asked her to standby. That hypothetical is so interesting to me,
    Oh... My preference would have been for him to tell her to standby too, after all Logan said he was getting there (and indeed he was). I was just saying that, if Scott really thought he had to give the order, that he would have given the order in a different way.

    And it was ooc for him to just put that decision on the shoulders of a young mutant he knew was troubled. But it would have served the narrative if the fact that it was so ooc was an indicator that something was really wrong with him.

    But we didn't get that, so it was just ooc... Does it make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    If I remember correctly, the girls wanted to spend time with him doing something other than X-Men stuff. They all had fun, it wasn't a long story I don't think.
    I don't really see the Cuckoos wanting to spend time with him, but who cares? Like I told Cyked in private, fanfiction should be funfiction. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I'm a sucker for father stories and sibling stories, those plot elements basically get me hooked almost immediately.
    I'm a sucker for any depiction of personal relationships. I really miss the X-Men just going out as friends or having dates or playing by the pool or playing a game together, etc... I'm glad there was a scene of them playing snooker but the thought that it happened on a side book in which they're not even the main characters? That just hurts.
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-11-2021 at 03:17 AM.

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Fishing is great. I swear I read a fic once where Scott, being the father-figure to the Cuckoos, took one or all of them out fishing for father-daughter bonding time. It was good, but I can't find it.
    Kinda miss the days when the Cuckoos were the petty daddy's girls to Papa!Clops. I really, really, disliked the tone BMB gave them, since I felt their hive-mind was actually what made them interesting. Otherwise, they're just Random Telepath Number B.
    Let your wallet talk.

    Never forget, Cyke fans~ https://twitter.com/i/status/1246248602768486402

    When will Logan call out Jean for drafting children in her X-Squad?

    The WatXM staff are clear hypocrites for supporting The Crucible~

    Logan lecturing Shulkie about Krakoa is the epitome of hypocrisy.

    Hickman succeeded where 2010s Marvel didn't: make the X-Men villainous and irrelevant.

    Hilariously, the X-Men have now fully embraced mutant supremacy and racism against humans.

  5. #680
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    The fishing thing and taking the Cuckoos out for bonding amuses me. This is because I'm running an X-Men table top rpg currently. The players are a teen team, and 1 of them has decided that Cyclops is her found father figure. One of the things I decided based on what I've read between the lines with Cyke and Corsair is that fishing was a big thing (Can't remember the one camping trip issue where Scott gets to unload his father anger off hand). The two frequently bond over fishing in that game, so I'm amused to see that I was not the only one who assumed this.

    Another hobby that stands out in my head is gardening. The only reason for this being in an X-Men First Class issue, its a story about Jean, but its told by Scott to Kitty. In that issue Scott is doing some landscaping around the campus. I get it might have just been his pull from the chore jar, but when you like a character and you're trying to understand them better these things stand out.

    Favorite foods? I always pictured chicken wings being in there. The reason being I knew a guy in high school who used to eat them super fast by putting them in his mouth lengthwise and pulling stripping all the meat from the bone. I picture this being a Scott habit he developed either in the orphanage or living on the streets. A fast way to knock out a lot of calories.
    Last edited by Cyked; 05-11-2021 at 06:14 AM.

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    The guy who had archived it doesn't post anymore, but since I had his account friended I managed to find the OneDrive link. Hope it doesn't get to truncated.

    It's mostly a fanfic about how the aborted romance between Tyke and Laura could have been re-established, with a starting point of just after The Black Vortex crossover - although the first chapters were written around the writer switch in the Cyclops solo series.

    Written by me, actually.

    https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?..._tqeI&app=Word
    Reading this puts a smile on my face. Well-written, definitely but also all the call-backs to discussions in the old appreciation threads. Especially the parts about Mother Hen Pryde having a stroke despite all her (doomed) attempts to separate Tyke-23.

    Ah, what could have been...
    Let your wallet talk.

    Never forget, Cyke fans~ https://twitter.com/i/status/1246248602768486402

    When will Logan call out Jean for drafting children in her X-Squad?

    The WatXM staff are clear hypocrites for supporting The Crucible~

    Logan lecturing Shulkie about Krakoa is the epitome of hypocrisy.

    Hickman succeeded where 2010s Marvel didn't: make the X-Men villainous and irrelevant.

    Hilariously, the X-Men have now fully embraced mutant supremacy and racism against humans.

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post

    . "She was always cheating on him" - 4 (?) kisses to which she did not give her consent.
    One of those kisses ended with Logan breaking it off. I think its a little disingenuous to paint that kiss as without consent, or Logan forcing himself onto Jean. I get the artist and writer didn't show Logan ask if he could kiss her on panel, but such is typical with a lot of fiction (which sure is its own issue).
    Last edited by Cyked; 05-11-2021 at 10:45 AM.

  8. #683
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyked View Post
    One of those kisses ended with Logan breaking it off. I think its a little disingenuous to paint that kiss as without consent, or Logan forcing himself onto Jean. I get the artist and writer didn't show Logan ask if he could kiss her on panel, but such is typical with a lot of fiction.
    Maybe he broke off because for once Logan realised he crossed the line and if he kept kissing her he'd be exploting her emotional fragility? She was talking about Scott the whole time, saying she's there to talk to Logan because he's her friend, she's feeling miserable, not even looking at him at the panel before the kiss... Do you really think that woman is asking to be kissed?

    How is it disingenous?

    Anyway, if you really want to talk about it, can you please, do it in private? Again, this is about Logan and Jean. Not Scott.

  9. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Maybe he broke off because for once Logan realised he crossed the line and if he kept kissing her he'd be exploting her emotional fragility? She was talking about Scott the whole time, saying she's there to talk to Logan because he's her friend, she's feeling miserable, not even looking at him at the panel before the kiss... Do you really think that woman is asking to be kissed?

    How is it disingenous?

    Anyway, if you really want to talk about it, can you please, do it in private? Again, this is about Logan and Jean. Not Scott.
    I was only responding to what you posted, and on the thread you did post it on.

  10. #685
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyked View Post
    I was only responding to what you posted, and on the thread you did post it on.
    Yes, but in the context of her relationshp with Scott, which is why I didn't expand on those occurances. I don't mind talking about those kisses, really, or the nature of Jean and Logan's relationship. I just don't think it fits the thread and I don't want to make a mess again. But, please, if it's interesting to you, let me know and we can talk about it in private.

  11. #686
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    Got it. Not trying to be a problem. Sorry folks.

  12. #687
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    I seem to remember various issues that Jean would seem preoccupied with running Xavier's school when Scott would reach out and then when Jean would try to reach out to Scott he would be cold towards her. Common thing is people forget...Scott was screwed up after his merger...he needed real help, but Xavier and Jean when Morrison took over seemed to focus on the school and let his guard down with Emma...who had to role play to get Scott to open up. So who knows.

  13. #688
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobit View Post
    I seem to remember various issues that Jean would seem preoccupied with running Xavier's school when Scott would reach out and then when Jean would try to reach out to Scott he would be cold towards her. Common thing is people forget...Scott was screwed up after his merger...he needed real help, but Xavier and Jean when Morrison took over seemed to focus on the school and let his guard down with Emma...who had to role play to get Scott to open up. So who knows.
    Throughout this ordeal, we don't see much of how Jean feels. Of what I remember, there's a single scene in which she and Scott actually talk about their marriage. She is certainly portayed as carrying about Scott and trying to get them to talk. But he can't. He wants her to look in his mind. And, for reasons Morrison doesn't clarify, she refuses. I have a plusible explanation, but it's just speculation.

    Then there's the infamous scene of the kiss between Logan and Jean. She still cares about Scott, as she's crying, telling Logan how she feels like a fool for wanting things with Scott to be as they used to, as she thought they would be once she and Cable rescued him.

    Then she asks Scott if he slept with Emma when they were in Hong Kong and his answer is so absurd that I can only think it's Morrison trolling the readers.

    Lastly, after she defends the school and the Phoenix power flares up, she tells Logan that she's feeling amazing and all her negative feelings about Scott are gone. Again... Never really explained why. We can only speculate.

    After that, when Jean is shown preocupied with running the school, Scott is actually trying to talk to her about the Phoenix (and then the conversation changes focus). It's not about their marriage.

    As for Scott, he tells Emma he finds it hard to talk to either Jean or Charles, because he thinks both of them are able to shake their traumas off easily. That's why he asked for Emma's help. But he only wanted to talk and get some marriage counselling. He didn't ask for telepathic therapy and he makes it very clear.


    --
    All right, guys. I'm taking a break now. Have fun.
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-11-2021 at 01:11 PM.

  14. #689

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    What I wouldn't want is for them to came up with a gimmick for Scott and Jean in specific, to magically fix their relationship.
    Isn't that *exactly* what happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    But also because it's opening a whole new can of worms for the future. I'm not one to read homosexual subtexts in friendships (I get upset when people say Frodo and Sam were gay, for instance), but you guys realise that for much less than that talk between Scott and Logan in X-Men #7, they made Bobby gay, right? Not even bisexual. Gay.
    Scogan is the comic book equivalent of two professional wrestlers completely losing it and sending one another to the E.R.. Sure, it wasn't scripted, but it's the realest thing you've seen all night. Meaning there's absolutely no way the x-office would have the actual guts to pull the trigger. Oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Then she asks Scott if he slept with Emma when they were in Hong Kong and his answer is so absurd that I can only think it's Morrison trolling the readers.
    I always took as Scott trolling Jean. I mean, she seeks out Logan to do whatever and basically accuses Scott of having an affair almost immediately after. Doesn't take a genius to figure out there was some projection of guilt/retroactive justification going on, right?



    Anyway. About the Xavier/Choice discussion, I've always thought Xavier choosing Scott as team leader made perfect sense on a pragmatic and cynical level. My personal issue isn't so much with the decision itself, but rather with Xavier seemingly deluding himself into thinking he did it out of nothing but concern/caring/love/whatever.
    Last edited by FluffyCyclopsRLZ; 05-11-2021 at 01:11 PM.

  15. #690
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    Isn't that *exactly* what happened? ;)
    You mean with the whole Krakoa thing? I don't think they fixed it all all. But if you're only joking about it? Sure. There're doing great together. Blessed be, Krakoa.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    Scogan is the comic book equivalent of two professional wrestlers completely losing it and sending one another to the E.R.. Sure, it wasn't scripted, but it's the realest thing you've seen all night. Meaning there's absolutely no way the x-office would have the actual guts to pull the trigger. Oh well.
    The whole scene has a really weird intimacy/innuendo vibe going on. Again: I'm not one to read homosexual subtexts.

    Maybe the x-office won't have the guts to pull it off now. But give it some years...? As I said, I don't like it when they change a character's sexual orientation, regardless of which character we're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    I always took as Scott trolling Jean. I mean, she seeks out Logan to do whatever and basically accuses Scott of having an affair almost immediately after. Doesn't take a genius to figure out there was some projection of guilt/retroactive justification going on, right?
    Well, the thing is, when Scott is in Hong Kong, he contacts Jean with his thoughts. He explains quickly what is going on, says they might need backup and he tells her she can download his memories of their mission while he's asleep. She points out that Emma is on his mind and she asks if she's behaving. He says he's keeping an eye on everyone.

    Now, Scott doesn't actually sleeps that night, right? So I think it's fair that she would feel worried about it, especially because they were having problems and they hadn't been intimate in, at least, 5 months...

    As for the kiss, she goes check on Logan because he's been on top of a hill for 4 days. They chit-chat a bit and then he asks why she's there. And she starts to talk about Scott. She's feeling lonely and she's crying.

    Do you guys really see a woman who is crying about her husband as someone who wants to have an affair at that very moment?
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-11-2021 at 04:25 PM.

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