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  1. #691
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I believe I haven't thanked you personally yet for engaging in the discussions. Let me rectify it, please: thank you! I really appreciate it.

    Also, I’d like to thank you guys for the patience. Other than being very verbose, English isn’t my native language and I’m aware I murder it mercilessly in every post! Poor prepositions… they are the ones who suffer the most!
    Of course, these conversations have been interesting. Ah, English isn't my first language either, although it's become the language I'm most comfortable using. I wouldn't have been able to tell if you hadn't told me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I think I should mention, though: I'd actually love if we left the Krakoan era by saying: "it actually never happened". Normally, I don't like this kind of retcon, but I'd be okay in this case because the story was set for this possibility from the start *and* it would be happening to all characters.

    What I wouldn't want is for them to came up with a gimmick for Scott and Jean in specific, to magically fix their relationship.

    But in any way, I thought you were talking about the two love triangles (Scott-Jean-Logan and Jean-Scott-Emma) pre-Krakoa. I meant that I don't want that to be retconned either. I want them to be resolved.
    Yeah, I meant for this era in general also; there are interesting elements that could be kept going forward, but let's leave the poly behind.

    Marvel has an aversion to closure I guess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Scott is *not* a monster at all. It's absurd to even suggest that.

    And yes. Scott and Jean are absolutely important to each other. As a fan, a person may not like their relationship, that's cool. But they should be able to understand why the characters do and they should be upset when the writers ignore or attack this relationship *because* it is such an important part of both characters.

    And you know what? I'd even risk saying that most people who don't like the relationship either don't like it because they'd prefer the characters to be with someone else and/or because they're stuck in those echo chambers.

    . "She was always cheating on him" - 4 (?) kisses to which she did not give her consent.
    . "She was not a good girlfriend/wife" - ignores countless of scenes of her being supportive.
    . "He was not a good boyfriend/husband" - ignore several scenes of his being supportive.
    . "Jean is more attracted to Logan than Scott" - ignores the countless of steaming hot, passionate kisses (including in public) and the fact they can't keep their hands off each other, even after 10+ years of marriage and 20 years as a couple!!!
    . "Scott is boring, Logan would be a better match" - ignores scenes in which Scott and Jean are happy, having fun, like the snowball fight in Central Park.
    . "He cheated on her" - he rejected having a physical affair with a woman he was attracted to and ended up having a psychic affair with said woman, after his mind was sequestered without his consent and he expresses repeatedly that he did not want a psychic intervention or feels safe in it. 2 of the 3 after scenes happens while he is piloting, with other people around (which certainly plays a role in his ability to resist it). He expresses regret for the betrayal in all the scenes and has to be pushed into it. Also, the affair is so emotional for him that when he sees Emma holding the body of her dead daughter(!), he doesn't offer a single word of comfort for her. Yeah, he loved Emma all right.
    . "He never had a choice of another girlfriend" - the other 3 boys had girlfriends back in the O5 days.
    . "Jean made him wimpy and weak" - she helped him overcome his fear of being intimate with someone, she helped him transition from a shy, awkward teenager boy to a confident man, she helped him navigate the thin line between being a compassionate leader and making the hard choices, she helped him truly connect and express feelings instead of compartmentalise and bottle up everything at the price of slowly losing himself. It was when he couldn't connect with her anymore (Morrison's run) that he was at his lowest, most weakened state. And what came after was only illusion of strength because when one doesn’t allow themselves to second-guess themselves, when they always assume they’re right, they don’t learn from mistakes and, at best, they become stagnant.

    I could go on and on just showing that those things people often give as arguments are simply not factual. It's fine that a fan doesn't like them together. But they should understand it's a matter of personal taste. And that's okay that they feel this way, but it doesn't mean the characters would.
    I can't find anything to disagree with you here; I even agree that Scott didn't love Emma during Morrison's run, I think that came later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Well, for a change, I'd actually prefer if there was no enemy to defeat. It wouldn't even need to be a traditional comic book in which every single panel is drawn. Maybe we could get several pages of written text and some pages with panels when seeing the images would be interesting.

    I think there's so much to unpack, so much they'd want to finally say to each other…

    But yeah... we're not getting anything remotely like it any time soon. Last X-Men Monday confirms they're deliberately leaving everything very vague. Which makes me wonder why Percy isn't. I really don't like this imbalance and not only because it seems like a cheap tactic to just get fans speculating.

    But also because it's opening a whole new can of worms for the future. I'm not one to read homosexual subtexts in friendships (I get upset when people say Frodo and Sam were gay, for instance), but you guys realise that for much less than that talk between Scott and Logan in X-Men #7, they made Bobby gay, right? Not even bisexual. Gay.

    Note: I love non-heterosexual characters. But I don't like when they change a character's orientation.
    Maybe a series of small adventures to frame their rebuilding of their relationship.

    I think part of the motivation is excess, that they can show off the shiny, new Jogan. And it's not just homosexual relationships, hardcore shipping of any kind has been ruining fandoms for years. I could write a book on that topic and how it's hurting characters, writers, readers, narratives, and fandoms. I'm in full agreement with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yes. And, personally, I think it would have been even cooler if they had explored the price they were paying for those victories and if the characters leading the group would second-guess themselves about their choices.
    So much missed material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Oh... My preference would have been for him to tell her to standby too, after all Logan said he was getting there (and indeed he was). I was just saying that, if Scott really thought he had to give the order, that he would have given the order in a different way.

    And it was ooc for him to just put that decision on the shoulders of a young mutant he knew was troubled. But it would have served the narrative if the fact that it was so ooc was an indicator that something was really wrong with him.

    But we didn't get that, so it was just ooc... Does it make sense?
    Yeah, I can see that case, it makes sense. I think Scott would have given a direct command for sure, and either hypothetical had story potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I don't really see the Cuckoos wanting to spend time with him, but who cares? Like I told Cyked in private, fanfiction should be funfiction.
    Gray wrote it as it turns out, definitely funfiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I'm a sucker for any depiction of personal relationships. I really miss the X-Men just going out as friends or having dates or playing by the pool or playing a game together, etc... I'm glad there was a scene of them playing snooker but the thought that it happened on a side book in which they're not even the main characters? That just hurts.
    The interpersonal stuff is the X-franchise's bread and butter.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  2. #692
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiyon View Post
    Kinda miss the days when the Cuckoos were the petty daddy's girls to Papa!Clops. I really, really, disliked the tone BMB gave them, since I felt their hive-mind was actually what made them interesting. Otherwise, they're just Random Telepath Number B.
    I think I still haven't read Bendis' X-Men completely yet; and I just want Scott to start adopting wayward youths everywhere.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  3. #693
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post

    Do you guys really see a woman who is crying about her husband as someone who wants to have an affair at that very moment?
    Uh...yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    I always took as Scott trolling Jean. I mean, she seeks out Logan to do whatever and basically accuses Scott of having an affair almost immediately after. Doesn't take a genius to figure out there was some projection of guilt/retroactive justification going on, right?
    Yeah, Scott was trolling her.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    Anyway. About the Xavier/Choice discussion, I've always thought Xavier choosing Scott as team leader made perfect sense on a pragmatic and cynical level. My personal issue isn't so much with the decision itself, but rather with Xavier seemingly deluding himself into thinking he did it out of nothing but concern/caring/love/whatever.
    Anyone that actually reads those first few issues of X-men and doesn't reach the conclusion Cyclops is the obvious and only choice for it is seriously deluded.

  4. #694

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    You mean with the whole Krakoa thing? I don't think they fixed it all all.
    They didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    But if you're only joking about it? Sure. There're doing great together. Blessed be, Krakoa.
    There you go. Because actual relationships totally don't require communication, time and effort. Blessed be, Krakoa indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    The whole scene has a really weird intimacy/innuendo vibe going on. Again: I'm not one to read homosexual subtexts.
    I was rather referring to their relationship in general and how "subtext" doesn't quite cut it anymore.



    You can't make this stuff up, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Well, the thing is, when Scott is in Hong Kong, he contacts Jean with his thoughts. He explains quickly what is going on, says they might need backup and he tells her she can download his memories of their mission while he's asleep. She points out that Emma is on his mind and she asks if she's behaving. He says he's keeping an eye on everyone.

    Now, Scott doesn't actually sleeps that night, right? So I think it's fair that she would feel worried about it, especially because they were having problems and they hadn't been intimate in, at least, 5 months...
    The issue is the timing, not the actual accusation. As I've said before, it just screams of projection of guilt/retroactive justification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    As for the kiss, she goes check on Logan because he's been on top of a hill for 4 days. They chit-chat a bit and then he asks why she's there. And she starts to talk about Scott. She's feeling lonely and she's crying.

    Do you guys really see a woman who is crying about her husband as someone who wants to have an affair at that very moment?
    Having that exact same conversation with basically any other sentient being in the MU? No, it clearly wouldn't be an invite. Given the two involved parties'... huh... complicated history, though? Not quite the same.

    I mean, isn't that the basic template for just about any "I didn't mean for anything to happen, I just needed a shoulder to cry on!" cheating scenario?

  5. #695
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I can't find anything to disagree with you here; I even agree that Scott didn't love Emma during Morrison's run, I think that came later.
    I agree. She was already in love with him. His feelings developed later and I think it makes sense. I’d never argue against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Maybe a series of small adventures to frame their rebuilding of their relationship.
    I guess it could work too. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I think part of the motivation is excess, that they can show off the shiny, new Jogan. And it's not just homosexual relationships, hardcore shipping of any kind has been ruining fandoms for years. I could write a book on that topic and how it's hurting characters, writers, readers, narratives, and fandoms. I'm in full agreement with you.
    Like I said, I’m okay with homosexual relationships. They can be as beautiful and inspiring as heterosexual ones.

    But I think I get what you mean: it’s about creating relationships of whatever kind, just for the sake of having them or for shock value, right? Yeah, that’s just bad. Nothing in a story should ever be approached from this angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    The interpersonal stuff is the X-franchise's bread and butter.
    I think so too and I really miss it.

  6. #696
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    There you go. Because actual relationships totally don't require communication, time and effort. Blessed be, Krakoa indeed.
    I know... I wished they had given us something, anything, in terms of communication.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    I was rather referring to their relationship in general and how "subtext" doesn't quite cut it anymore.

    You can't make this stuff up, right?
    You see? I really don't read too much into it.

    I think I'm very similar to Scott and my brother is very similar to Logan and he knows how to push my buttons and make me angry. It's been like this since we were kids. We love each other, but we fight so much... And the fight can come out of nowhere and be motivated by the stupidest reason.

    So I don't just assume frequent fights equate sexual tension, you know?

    The problem, though, is not how I see it. It's how the fans/Marvel see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    The issue is the timing, not the actual accusation. As I've said before, it just screams of projection of guilt/retroactive justification.
    Mmm... As long as it’s not just projection, I suppose you could read it like this. It could also have been just because it was the first time she had the chance to ask him. But, sure, Jean always felt guilty about those kisses, though, so... okay, I guess.

    EDIT: Okay, so I checked. She actually asks him the next day, while they're visiting Hank in the infirmary, after Scott asks her: "Everybody in the place has the flu, even Logan. If you want Emma and me to check out Sublime, we can go downtown after lunch." -- It's not so out of the blue for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    Having that exact same conversation with basically any other sentient being in the MU? No, it clearly wouldn't be an invite. Given the two involved parties'... huh... complicated history, though? Not quite the same.
    Regardless of their sexual tension, Logan is her friend, though. In Morrison's book, the cast doesn't interact with the rest with the other X-Men who are not the protagonists of his book… Hank was dealing with this own problems, Xavier is about to leave, Bobby, Warren and Ororo aren't around... Her other close friend is Scott, but they're not really managing to talk to each other. So who was she supposed to talk to?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    I mean, isn't that the basic template for just about any "I didn't mean for anything to happen, I just needed a shoulder to cry on!" cheating scenario?
    Only if you think the person isn't actually feeling devastated, right? Because if they are, chances are they're really not thinking about cheating at all.

    And why would Jean not be feeling devastated? Before The Twelve starts, her relationship with Scott is doing well. They're chilling in Alaska, probably trying to take the break they'd talked about to have their children together. Neither of them really wants to go back to the X-Men. They only stay with the team because Charles asks. And then Scott is possessed.

    Then, after refusing to believe Scott is dead and rescuing him with Cable, her husband comes back very differently. How would she feel anything but devastated by that? Jean loved Scott and she hadn’t been possessed by Apocalypse. Nothing had actually changed for her.

    She tells Logan, in that very scene, that she never felt anything like the feelings she and Scott used to share and she wished Scott would just hold her the way he used to. Consider just the fact she keeps mentioning Scott, though. Does it really sound like she's trying to seduce Logan? Would a guy feel seduced by a woman who is constantly mentioning another man?

    We might be reading this very differently because of cultural differences, though… I don’t know.
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-11-2021 at 07:07 PM.

  7. #697
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    Honestly both interpretations of that seem pretty valid to me. And that's kinda why I liked how Morrison decided to explore that back then. Relationships can be messy and adding all the mutant power/superheroics to it felt very much peak comic soap opera to me, which is just neat to me.

    I think the problem is how certain writers decided to interpret that run after and the fact that Jean was dead for all of it. And the fandoms of all involved just got too much on each other's throats about it.

    I personally used to read the kiss (or kisses) as Jean cheating back during Whedon's run, but I don't do so much these days. I don't think it was Logan forcing it on her either. I think it was just a messy thing that can happen some times. It's not right but I don't think anyone was intending malice here. Sometimes is about wanting comfort when you're upset in any form it comes, even an ill advised one. But obviously we will always view these relationships through the lense of our own.

  8. #698
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    @xhx23x: I replied to you in private. I hope you don't mind. :)

  9. #699

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Mmm... As long as it’s not just projection, I suppose you could read it like this. It could also have been just because it was the first time she had the chance to ask him. But, sure, Jean always felt guilty about those kisses, though, so... okay, I guess.
    Scott and Jean had a conversation about their relationship and Scott's PTSD in the last few pages of the previous issue. Plenty of time to bring up Emma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Regardless of their sexual tension, Logan is her friend, though. In Morrison's book, the cast doesn't interact with the rest with the other X-Men who are not the protagonists of his book… Hank was dealing with this own problems, Xavier is about to leave, Bobby, Warren and Ororo aren't around... Her other close friend is Scott, but they're not really managing to talk to each other. So who was she supposed to talk to?
    Quentin Quire and/or the Cuckoos? Oh, Percy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Only if you think the person isn't actually feeling devastated, right? Because if they are, chances are they're really not thinking about cheating at all.

    [....]

    She tells Logan, in that very scene, that she never felt anything like the feelings she and Scott used to share and she wished Scott would just hold her the way he used to. Consider just the fact she keeps mentioning Scott, though. Does it really sound like she's trying to seduce Logan? Would a guy feel seduced by a woman who is constantly mentioning another man?

    We might be reading this very differently because of cultural differences, though… I don’t know.
    Not blaming Jean in the slightest for *feeling* the way she did. That being said, most exes/potential squeezes would totally take her speech as a "I'm this close to breaking up with him/her, you have your shot, right here, right now" moment. And they'd be approximately 1000000% right. Give or take a few percent. That's just... I dunno, Sentientdom 101? Anyone who goes crying about their relationship woes to someone who wants to have sex with them is - at the very least subconsciously - open to possibilities. Even moreso if they end up making out within 5-10 minutes.

    If it's any consolation, I've gone on the record about Scott basically doing the same with Emma as retaliation for Jean's transparent tactics. Fair is fair and all that.

  10. #700
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    @FlufflyCyclopsRLZ: I don't remember exactly when the annual is suppose to fit. But anyway, I had already conceded that you could be right about projecting.

    Quentin and the Cuckoos are teenagers who had nothing to do with Jean. But I see what you did there. Not a fan of Percy's X-Force either. Mock away. :)

    As for the rest, let's just agree to disagree, then?

    I don't really see how we could be adding to each other's perspective at this point and, frankly, I'm just really tired too.

  11. #701
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I agree. She was already in love with him. His feelings developed later and I think it makes sense. I’d never argue against it.
    I think both Jean and Emma were good for Scott in their ways - but there's no getting away from the gray area that the latter's relationship developed from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I guess it could work too.
    Gotta show off that teamwork!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Like I said, I’m okay with homosexual relationships. They can be as beautiful and inspiring as heterosexual ones.

    But I think I get what you mean: it’s about creating relationships of whatever kind, just for the sake of having them or for shock value, right? Yeah, that’s just bad. Nothing in a story should ever be approached from this angle.
    Yeah, there's plenty of ground to cover with those types of stories, no denying that.

    Exactly, story decisions should be made with narrative logic and continuity in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I think so too and I really miss it.
    There can be a balance, Marvel just has to work towards it.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  12. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    Anyway. About the Xavier/Choice discussion, I've always thought Xavier choosing Scott as team leader made perfect sense on a pragmatic and cynical level. My personal issue isn't so much with the decision itself, but rather with Xavier seemingly deluding himself into thinking he did it out of nothing but concern/caring/love/whatever.
    I'd think it depends on which writer peeps read it from. I don't know what the original narrative was-- like, waaay back in the day when it was Stan Lee writing-- but off the top of my head, I can think of two interpretations. One is, iirc, an AvX (or was it Schism?) tie-in from Scott's perspective where Chuck was offering him a home. The other is during Whedon's run, where Emma broke it down to Chuck needing a field leader and an orphaned Scott, with no family or other qualities (e.g. Hank and SCIENCE), was perfect for the job.

    ps. Graaaaay D: don't leave me hanging, muh good writer. You know I'm a shipper at heart~~~
    Last edited by xiyon; 05-11-2021 at 09:34 PM.
    Let your wallet talk.

    Never forget, Cyke fans~ https://twitter.com/i/status/1246248602768486402

    When will Logan call out Jean for drafting children in her X-Squad?

    The WatXM staff are clear hypocrites for supporting The Crucible~

    Logan lecturing Shulkie about Krakoa is the epitome of hypocrisy.

    Hickman succeeded where 2010s Marvel didn't: make the X-Men villainous and irrelevant.

    Hilariously, the X-Men have now fully embraced mutant supremacy and racism against humans.

  13. #703
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    Scott and Jean had a conversation about their relationship and Scott's PTSD in the last few pages of the previous issue. Plenty of time to bring up Emma.



    Quentin Quire and/or the Cuckoos? Oh, Percy.



    Not blaming Jean in the slightest for *feeling* the way she did. That being said, most exes/potential squeezes would totally take her speech as a "I'm this close to breaking up with him/her, you have your shot, right here, right now" moment. And they'd be approximately 1000000% right. Give or take a few percent. That's just... I dunno, Sentientdom 101? Anyone who goes crying about their relationship woes to someone who wants to have sex with them is - at the very least subconsciously - open to possibilities. Even moreso if they end up making out within 5-10 minutes.

    If it's any consolation, I've gone on the record about Scott basically doing the same with Emma as retaliation for Jean's transparent tactics. Fair is fair and all that.
    That's basically how I feel about that scene too. I don't think it makes Jean an irredeemable monster, I'd be a hypocrite if I did, but those who are adamant that there was no wrongdoing here are themselves, in fact, wrong. I'm not saying that Grinning Soul is saying that, mind you, just that it's a point I've had to contend with before.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  14. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That's basically how I feel about that scene too. I don't think it makes Jean an irredeemable monster, I'd be a hypocrite if I did, but those who are adamant that there was no wrongdoing here are themselves, in fact, wrong. I'm not saying that Grinning Soul is saying that, mind you, just that it's a point I've had to contend with before.
    Both parties (as with most relationship drama) are at fault. Takes two to tango and all those cliches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Marvel has an aversion to closure I guess?
    Long-form storytelling. Claremont tried closure and-- and it didn't end pretty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I can't find anything to disagree with you here; I even agree that Scott didn't love Emma during Morrison's run, I think that came later.

    (...)

    The interpersonal stuff is the X-franchise's bread and butter.
    I mean, yeah. Here Comes Tomorrow pretty much confirms it. Cyke stepped away from Emma and the X-Men, obligatory bad future happens, so Phoenix/Jean from the far future telepathically nudges Scott to accept Emma. Idk, I always found Emma's subsequent feelings of inferiority to her place in Scott's heart relative to Jean's (as unhealthy as it was) despite Scott's constant reassurance deliciously drama-filled because there is actually basis for it, whether Scott (and especially Emma) realizes it or not.

    And interpersonally stuff definitely is one of the X-Men's staples, which is why it frustrates me to no end when writers (ahem, BMB but more egregiously, Hickman) shoehorn their narratives.
    Let your wallet talk.

    Never forget, Cyke fans~ https://twitter.com/i/status/1246248602768486402

    When will Logan call out Jean for drafting children in her X-Squad?

    The WatXM staff are clear hypocrites for supporting The Crucible~

    Logan lecturing Shulkie about Krakoa is the epitome of hypocrisy.

    Hickman succeeded where 2010s Marvel didn't: make the X-Men villainous and irrelevant.

    Hilariously, the X-Men have now fully embraced mutant supremacy and racism against humans.

  15. #705
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    I don't want to seem like I'm "beating a dead horse" so I'll try to make my comments on the subject brief.

    I feel like Morrison had intended to present a parallel between Scott and Jean during that era. They had a problem and were drifting apart (which is a different matter of discussion if I'm being honest) and sought out other people to help with the situation, people they probably should have avoided. Jean was the lucky one considering Wolverine made their relationship boundaries clear instead of pushing things forward. Now, would there have actually been an affair if he didn't? Probably, considering her vulnerability, but Jean would have most likely hated herself afterwards. Scott on the other hand went to Emma who played with his vulnerability till the psychic affair.

    Both seemed relatively lost, and put quite a bit of faith into other people. That being said, I don't think Wolverine and Emma deserve all the blame or praise. It was a messy situation and Scott and Jean both knew who they were confiding in.

    Quote Originally Posted by xiyon View Post
    I'd think it depends on which writer peeps read it from. I don't know what the original narrative was-- like, waaay back in the day when it was Stan Lee writing-- but off the top of my head, I can think of two interpretations. One is, iirc, an AvX (or was it Schism?) tie-in from Scott's perspective where Chuck was offering him a home. The other is during Whedon's run, where Emma broke it down to Chuck needing a field leader and an orphaned Scott, with no family or other qualities (e.g. Hank and SCIENCE), was perfect for the job.
    As controversial as it is, Tyke is also another good representation of his free will. During his time in the present, he wasn't really pushed as a leader. Most of the X-Men favored giving Jean leadership. That definitely had some impact no doubt, but Scott still showed off his tactical skills when possible and his intention to help considering his decision to join the Champions. While I wasn't that big a fan of Tyke's portrayal a majority of the time, there's a lot to delve into considering that era.

    I also can't help but realize how terrible most of his "friends" were considering how they treated him during his time in the present.
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 05-11-2021 at 10:18 PM.
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