Scott Summers aka Cyclops Appreciation 2021

[TheDeadSpace]

Oh, let it be Emma, then?

Seriously, if they break Scott and Jean apart, let them really part with a heartfelt "I'll always love you. You'll always be my best friend. Good luck and be happy". The last thing I want for Jean is to be part of an on again off again meme couple. Let her and Warren go fly together, be heroic, share their episodes of possessions and identity crisis, spend billions on crazy benevolent projects to the benefit of humanity and make the most absurdly beautiful babies on Earth.

And if he's taken by then and we're accepting mutant-human relationships, I'd be all in for her to moving out of Krakoa and meeting a certain redhead who is currently in prison.

Seriously, as a male character, Scott will be just fine with going back and forth to previous relationships. The fault for the drama tends to fall on the female character and Jean is already super polarising as it is.

Well, given Jean's history I don't blame you for having that perspective. It would be nice if the characters are handled with as much respect as possible, but comic history tends to paint a different narrative. That being said, my answer was what I feel is most likely going to happen. Personally, I feel Scott has too much baggage from his previous relationships and I would hope to avoid a new disaster. Settling down with a previous love interest does seem to be the best choice to me. Granted, that leaves Jean and Emma as the best candidates. Given their current status, I'd prefer if they just decided that the polyamory wasn't working for them and continued with each other. The worst fate for me is a step towards the love triangle, but the situation is what it is and I'll just have to wait and see where this leads. Hopefully, it's done in a respectful manner, but I do have some doubts.

Well if you need something super depressive that somehow manages to have a happy ending, you already got an option .

That's an oddly apt description of the game.

[Grinning Soul]

Well, given Jean's history I don't blame you for having that perspective. It would be nice if the characters are handled with as much respect as possible, but comic history tends to paint a different narrative. That being said, my answer was what I feel is most likely going to happen. Personally, I feel Scott has too much baggage from his previous relationships and I would hope to avoid a new disaster. Settling down with a previous love interest does seem to be the best choice to me. Granted, that leaves Jean and Emma as the best candidates.

But Emma can get away with murder. Jean can't sneeze (and she'll sure be blamed for the end of their marriage already because she's the only one who is shown "cheating"). So, please, let it be Emma. :P

Given their current status, I'd prefer if they just decided that the polyamory wasn't working for them and continued with each other. The worst fate for me is a step towards the love triangle, but the situation is what it is and I'll just have to wait and see where this leads. Hopefully, it's done in a respectful manner, but I do have some doubts.

I hope Scott and Jean realise this whole Krakoa fever (and maybe resurrections?) is screwing up with their brains and they decide to reclaim themselves and their relationship. Like I said, I still think that, despite everything, Jean and Scott are perfect for each other. And they should be mature enough by now to fix their relationship and avoid those love polygons. I mean, seriously: their minds should be of people in their 40s. And for crying out loud, Jean should be over Logan already.

But if Marvel don't understand the treasure they have in their hands and they won't leave those two alone so they can finally be happy (with problems, sure, because no marriage is easy and they have very different personalities), then break them apart for good.


--
Adding this because I just remembered about it (please, don't take it seriously):

"Find the most fearsome challenger in all of creation and make her your wife. Lie down at night beside your greatest threat. Make love to your fate" -- Apocalypse

Now that they're buddies, do you think Apocalypse would look at Scott and say: "Attaboy"? :D

[Gray Lensman]

But Emma can get away with murder. Jean can't sneeze (and she'll sure be blamed for the end of their marriage already because she's the only one who is shown "cheating"). So, please, let it be Emma. :P

That really depends on who is being asked, and how Marvel plays it, as well as how well they pull it off.

From what it looks like in X-Force, Scott seems to appear so the writer can throw shade at him, and from what history tells us, the fans take ham handed crap poorly, especially when the writer forgets to put their headcanon on the page like in AvX. Of course, there is a certain segment of fan that will pin the blame on Scott no matter what is on panel, but they aren't overly relevant to the discussion.

If the end result is to 'balance the scales' so that Scott and Jean have each failed the other and need to both reconcile, things could work out for the best in the end. Jean has apparently forgiven Scott (but not forgotten), he should be able to do the same in return.

Of course, this presumes that the while thing isn't a triggered writer getting revenge against a fictional character over a 20ish year old story line. THAT will blow up in everyone's face if so.

I do find it funny how you say that Emma can get away with murder and Jean can't get away with anything, since the entire source of the characters feud is that in universe, the opposite is true. Emma was pissed that Jean will always be a saint and she would always be held at arm's length no matter what each one did. It's the whole reason she went after Scott in the first place, no other reason than to get at Jean. Actually falling in love with the man wasn't part of the plan (the only thing that makes the story kind of work IMO).

[Grinning Soul]

That really depends on who is being asked, and how Marvel plays it, as well as how well they pull it off.

True. But in general, chracters who are more morally ambiguous are forgiven more easily.

Emma and Logan can get away with anything. Scott and Jean can't.

But it's worse for Jean because, being a female character, historically she gets even less panel time and the majority of male writers and readers, unfortunately, have a tendency to blame the female character for the drama.

Nowadays, it may be less bad than it was. But it still happens. Right now, I keep reading that Jean is cheating on Scott, for instance.

From what it looks like in X-Force, Scott seems to appear so the writer can throw shade at him, and from what history tells us, the fans take ham handed crap poorly, especially when the writer forgets to put their headcanon on the page like in AvX. Of course, there is a certain segment of fan that will pin the blame on Scott no matter what is on panel, but they aren't overly relevant to the discussion.

If the end result is to 'balance the scales' so that Scott and Jean have each failed the other and need to both reconcile, things could work out for the best in the end. Jean has apparently forgiven Scott (but not forgotten), he should be able to do the same in return.

What he should be able to forgive her for, though? The open marriage?

Because before that... yes, she was not able to deal better with the trauma Apocalypse left on him. But I mean, she tried her best. Unlike Emma, who only mocked his trauma, Jean recognised it was there. She was being patient, waiting for him to reach out and talk, like they had once agreed to do (his suggestion).

Maybe she should have looked in his mind like he asked her to do. But I believe she thought it would only make things worse.

Think about it: Scott was really wondering if their love had been only a teenage crush they were only fighting to keep alive. That is so completely absurd considering everything they lived together, including raising Nathan, that one must assume (even if the writer didn't intend it) that Scott was so shattered, so depressed, with a self-esteem so low that he really couldn't even think rationally anymore.

If Jean had used her telepathy, he may have assumed she "fixed" him from the big revelation Apocalypse had bestowed on him that everything about his life was a lie. He was so out of himself (really, at no point during that time, he even mentions his family. It's this serious), I can actually see it happening.

Besides, you know, she's human too. It was certainly not easy for her to be in that marriage. I can only imagine how much her memories of the X-Factor period came back to her.

Of course, this presumes that the while thing isn't a triggered writer getting revenge against a fictional character over a 20ish year old story line. THAT will blow up in everyone's face if so.

Are we talking about the affair? Because Jean was dead for about 15 of these years. For her, it's recent history.

Now, while it was certainly betrayal of his part, I think there are lots of mitigating factors (including downright abuse by his therapist) that a person like Jean would certainly consider. That being said, while she's a forgiving person, I'm sure she felt hurt.

As Scott would have felt devastated if she had carried a telepathic affair. Which she could easily have done, considering she's a telepath.

I do find it funny how you say that Emma can get away with murder and Jean can't get away with anything, since the entire source of the characters feud is that in universe, the opposite is true. Emma was pissed that Jean will always be a saint and she would always be held at arm's length no matter what each one did.

Well, that's how Emma sees it, right? But that is not necessarily the truth.

People love Jean because Jean is loveable. Not because she's perfect.

People disliked Emma because she used to look down on everyone and she was very open about what she thought of them.

It's the whole reason she went after Scott in the first place, no other reason than to get at Jean. Actually falling in love with the man wasn't part of the plan (the only thing that makes the story kind of work IMO).

On that we agree. Morrison made a point of making Jean be better at everything (diplomacy, charisma, telepathy,...) so Emma would feel very jealous of her.

Now, Emma was going through her own traumatic experiences and difficulties, so I'm not judging her too harshly. Back in Hong Kong, she was feeling terrible and she was attracted to Scott, if she could seduce him, hurt Jean and gain power in the process? Game on.

She fell for him later. And I suspect she fell for him because she saw how much he loved Jean and she wanted that too. I'm saying this based on what she tells Logan after Jean finds out about the affair.


--

But I know what you meant about Scott. Yesterday, at the Jean's appreciation thread, I was trying to dispell the notion that Jean was only there to be his supportive girlfriend/wife and it was never mutual. Which is, factually, untrue and it required that I actually copied the text of some scenes showing he was always a supportive boyfriend/husband too.

People get very heated about their relationship and they don't bother actually reading the comics. Which, to be honest, I can relate. It took me years to be able to go back to the affair and try to read it with more impartial eyes.

[xiyon]

But I know what you meant about Scott. Yesterday, at the Jean's appreciation thread, I was trying to dispell the notion that Jean was only there to be his supportive girlfriend/wife and it was never mutual. Which is, factually, untrue and it required that I actually copied the text of some scenes showing he was always a supportive boyfriend/husband too.

Ironically, whatever bitterness I have against Jean-- which isn't much, mind you-- stemmed from Jean being portrayed as too perfect. Like, she was this gorgeous mutant with the coolest and most broken power set and had good parents, and her biggest drama was... choosing between two guys? Until Phoenix stuff happened, anyways.

For context, my first exposure to the X-Men was in the 90s cartoon as a kid, and it made me a huge Wolverine fan. And I never understood why Jean and Scott were together-- especially when my five-ish year old brain decided Scott and Rogue were a couple when she gave him CPR in their first encounter against Magneto (stupid, I know hahaha). But yeah-- Jean picking Scott over Logan was, at the time, a head-scratcher for me. The next exposure was in X-Men Evo and, at that time, I became a Nightcrawler fanboy, though I was warm on the Scott/Rogue pairing because I felt bad for the two. After that, it was the WatXM Cartoon, and it was back to the Logan train-- especially with how poorly Cyke was portrayed there. All things considered, I was very neutral towards Jean growing up, so I don't have as much stock in the affair as, say, someone that shipped them hardcore or was looking for another excuse to hate on Scott.

When I finally had enough pocket change to buy comics in my country, it was around the time of the post-House of M Academy X era-- and I just loved Surge (and then Elixir and X-23 and Pixie). And then realized Scott wasn't so bad after all. Then I started reading back issues and the rest is history. Honestly, what soured me over Logan / pushed me towards (and solidified my fanboying of) Scott were post-House of M, pre-Bendis era comics. I loved his transition / character development from idealist to pragmatist which was built on years of work. I enjoyed Morrison's run, but wasn't too invested in the characters and drama to experience counter-transference while reading. That happened during Messiah Complex :'D

As you can see, I tended to gravitate towards tortured characters. Logan over his man-pain back when I was a kid then Kurt over his obvious mutation and crazy family when I was a teenager. Scott over the burden of leadership. Jean... never really factored in anywhere, though neither did Emma to be fair. Heck, my first memory of Emma was that she was the one Scott was blasting on Asteroid M in the Pryde of the X-Men cartoon, so imagine my confusion when Emma was suddenly a prominent character in the comics.

People get very heated about their relationship and they don't bother actually reading the comics. Which, to be honest, I can relate. It took me years to be able to go back to the affair and try to read it with more impartial eyes.

I used to get heated, too. Like a fan(atic) would. Even wrote a bunch of Scott fanfics.

Then I realized a lot of things:

1. Being a fan and writing fics doesn't put food on my fam's table.
2. If I needed mental masturbation, I better write something that puts food on my fam's table.
3. After years of shite thrown at my boi (because X-Writers and JDW hate him for making them look like fools), the return I got was either Hickman's apathy or Rosenbaby's self-flagellation.

Pretty much wasted years and money for me.

But Emma can get away with murder. Jean can't sneeze (and she'll sure be blamed for the end of their marriage already because she's the only one who is shown "cheating"). So, please, let it be Emma. :P

Pretty sure Emma gets away with it because it's expected / in character. Jean can't because she's held to a higher standard (like how peeps view Scott). It's kinda like how Logan or Magneto can murder peeps and fans cheer.

It's not that Jean can't kill, but her killing or abusing her powers sticks out. In contrast, acts of heroism from Emma (and Magneto) become magnified. That's kinda just how narratives work.

The alternative would be to give Jean Utopia!Clops level of character development-- which would take years of build-up and steady direction. And Utopia!Clops only worked because the X-Office actually spent time to show how very real the threat of extinction was to the X-Men, instead of just saying it.

[TheCape]

What videogames do you figure Scott would enjoy? Strategy? Story-driven? Galaga? Virtual Boy?

Maybe just read books? Nothing wrong with that, I've got a small library myself.

I just want what everyone on these boards want for their favorite character: for them to be written well and treated with respect.

He seems to be more of a book guy than a gamer, but i could see him finding some entertaiment in things like Civilization or X-COM, is also possible that he might want something simple to relax and not think about much outside of work, but considering that he is a workhalic is hard for me to see it.

I get you, as a Wolverine fan althought i got less to complain i hadn't been impressed by Percy (he is fine, but very predictable) and i never been a Jogan fan so this poly thing does nothing for me.

That's an oddly apt description of the game.

Thanks Isaac (i hope you get the reference ) i'm surprised that i was able to be accurate.

[Grinning Soul]

Ironically, whatever bitterness I have against Jean-- which isn't much, mind you-- stemmed from Jean being portrayed as too perfect. Like, she was this gorgeous mutant with the coolest and most broken power set and had good parents, and her biggest drama was... choosing between two guys? Until Phoenix stuff happened, anyways.

For context, my first exposure to the X-Men was in the 90s cartoon as a kid, and it made me a huge Wolverine fan. And I never understood why Jean and Scott were together-- especially when my five-ish year old brain decided Scott and Rogue were a couple when she gave him CPR in their first encounter against Magneto (stupid, I know hahaha). But yeah-- Jean picking Scott over Logan was, at the time, a head-scratcher for me. The next exposure was in X-Men Evo and, at that time, I became a Nightcrawler fanboy, though I was warm on the Scott/Rogue pairing because I felt bad for the two. After that, it was the WatXM Cartoon, and it was back to the Logan train-- especially with how poorly Cyke was portrayed there. All things considered, I was very neutral towards Jean growing up, so I don't have as much stock in the affair as, say, someone that shipped them hardcore or was looking for another excuse to hate on Scott.

Thanks for sharing. I understand where you're coming from. I hope it doesn't appear like I'm trying to convince anyone. It's just a discussion. Everyone has the right to see things differently or prefer them to be different. I just really like reading about other points of view because even if I disagree with them, I find the experience enriching. :)

The way I see it, Jean and Scott are amazing together but it's not just because I like them together. It's because I think there are rational reasons that make the couple work.

The problem is that many writers (not only in comic books) think a couple is only interesting when they're always involved in some kind of drama... So, because those two characters are such a good match, they're seen as boring and either the writers don't do much about their relationship or they let their personal feelings show in the narrative by having Scott act coldly towards her when Wolvie is casting his puppy eyes in her direction or some such nonsense.

This panel is from the wedding issue. I don't think I could explain it better in a few lines, so I'll just link it here: https://i2.wp.com/www.xplainthexmen....6&crop=1&ssl=1

"You guys are something special, and most times, you don't even see it.
You go together like fire and ice... like a hurricane and its eye. It sounds strange, but it fits. One can't exist without the other - each one makes the whole stronger than the parts."

I particularly like the analogy of the hurricane and its eye. :)

Personally, I think a good couple must have the following characteristics:

1) Similar core values.
2) Different perspectives, tastes.

By core values I mean things like: how important family and friendships are to you, honesty, integrity, courage, loyalty, empathy, solidarity, etc... It's really hard to be together with someone if the person you're with is/feels very differently. But if the person who is with you is way too similar on the rest, you don't really challenge each other to become better people, you know?

One of the main differences between Scott and Jean, for instance, is that she's crazy passionate. Most of the times, she wears her heart on her sleeve, while he has a resting poker face. She is very in touch with her emotions, but she has 500 of them at the same time and they're very intense. While Scott, bottles everything up and deals with each at a time or doesn't deal with them at all. So they really benefit from each other here: she helps him open up and allow himself to feel stuff, he helps her untangle the emotional knot in her heart.

But this is just an example. There's so much more about them.

I'll just mention one thing because it's also something some writers don't seem to understand. Sure, Jean was never shown wearing a latex bodysuit and cracking a whip, but those two have a very passionate relationship. They are often drawn holding hands and/or with their arms around each other. It's all very behaved, but they literally can't keep their hands off each other.

And then, every now and then, there were some ridiculously passionate kissing. Now, mind you, these are well behaved people. If they kiss like that in public, imagine what it is like in private.

An example? The cover of their wedding issue: https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/wp...6/09/image.png

You think that foot is popping because that kiss is so romantic? Look again. Her knee is between both his knees. It's almost like he's holding it there, like he's saying: "honey, all our friends are watching, please, don't move this knee another inch up!" :D

And unlike every god-damn time Logan kissed her (before Krakoa), this is not a stolen kiss. This woman is crazy about this man.

There are so many other kisses like this. The problem is that there was the Morrison run, then she was dead for almost 15 years, then he was dead... You need to go back a lot to see those things again. Or just look at the only two interactions they have before Krakoa. There you have other two steaming hot kisses.

It makes me wonder if Percy has ever seen any of those stories or he's just too much of a fan of Logan...

When I finally had enough pocket change to buy comics in my country, it was around the time of the post-House of M Academy X era-- and I just loved Surge (and then Elixir and X-23 and Pixie). And then realized Scott wasn't so bad after all. Then I started reading back issues and the rest is history. Honestly, what soured me over Logan / pushed me towards (and solidified my fanboying of) Scott were post-House of M, pre-Bendis era comics. I loved his transition / character development from idealist to pragmatist which was built on years of work. I enjoyed Morrison's run, but wasn't too invested in the characters and drama to experience counter-transference while reading. That happened during Messiah Complex :'D

That is another reason that I regret this Krakoan era came at this time. Even before AvX, I think Scott took some steps that were too far. In other words, being too pragmatic was not a good thing for him in the long run. And I'm not saying those stories weren't interesting, I just think he was never given the chance to step back a little and look at certain things he had done and find the balance, you know?

In a way, AvX was a natural progression of this path. But it happened too soon and it wasn't well-executed.... Well, this message is already super long so I won't comment too much on that here. But let me know if you'd be interested in discussing it. :)

As you can see, I tended to gravitate towards tortured characters. Logan over his man-pain back when I was a kid then Kurt over his obvious mutation and crazy family when I was a teenager. Scott over the burden of leadership. Jean... never really factored in anywhere, though neither did Emma to be fair. Heck, my first memory of Emma was that she was the one Scott was blasting on Asteroid M in the Pryde of the X-Men cartoon, so imagine my confusion when Emma was suddenly a prominent character in the comics.

That's why so many Jean Grey fans are upset about their relationship: they equate her romantic relationship with the reason why she wasn't given any character development. But the actual reason is that the writers just didn't bother.

Emma, on the other hand, was really pushed into a role where she didn't really fit. I really prefer her where she is now: in a position where being cunning and shady is a good thing. That's where she really shines.

I used to get heated, too. Like a fan(atic) would. Even wrote a bunch of Scott fanfics.

Oh! Can I read them? :)

Pretty sure Emma gets away with it because it's expected / in character. Jean can't because she's held to a higher standard (like how peeps view Scott). It's kinda like how Logan or Magneto can murder peeps and fans cheer.

It's not that Jean can't kill, but her killing or abusing her powers sticks out. In contrast, acts of heroism from Emma (and Magneto) become magnified. That's kinda just how narratives work.

The alternative would be to give Jean Utopia!Clops level of character development-- which would take years of build-up and steady direction. And Utopia!Clops only worked because the X-Office actually spent time to show how very real the threat of extinction was to the X-Men, instead of just saying it.

I wouldn't want Jean to be developed in that direction, though. I don't want her to become a different character, you know? I love my girl as she is.

I want her to have panel time, I want her to be challenged when it comes to her compassion, for instance. Give her complex situations in which it is difficult to know what is right and what is wrong. Let her choose wrong and fail. Let her reflect about if she would have made a different decision. You know? Something more nuanced.

Have you ever watched a film called Hero? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0299977/

I love this film. I don't want to spoil anything, but I'll just say that, through the story, it explores the theme of what it means to be a hero. :)

[Zelena]

Ironically, whatever bitterness I have against Jean-- which isn't much, mind you-- stemmed from Jean being portrayed as too perfect. Like, she was this gorgeous mutant with the coolest and most broken power set and had good parents, and her biggest drama was... choosing between two guys? Until Phoenix stuff happened, anyways.

Her drama was wanting to be liked despite being seen as perfect. She is compassionate towards people less fortunate and feels their pain. I find her more interesting at difficult times.

Scott Summers is someone easier to relate: with all his insecurities and difficulties to communicate, he tried so hard to be worthy of Jean. Did he end believing it or did he pretend?

I tend to prefer him with Emma: both imperfect, both outcasts each one in their way…

[Gray Lensman]

Her drama was wanting to be liked despite being seen as perfect. She is compassionate towards people less fortunate and feels their pain. I find her more interesting at difficult times.

Scott Summers is someone easier to relate: with all his insecurities and difficulties to communicate, he tried so hard to be worthy of Jean. Did he end believing it or did he pretend?

I tend to prefer him with Emma: both imperfect, both outcasts each one in their way…

I think the relationship between Scott and Emma was good for both of them for a time, but Scott is a hero whereas Emma is an antihero, the preferred methods of each will clash too much without outside circumstances forcing one into the camp of the other.

[xiyon]

Thanks for sharing. I understand where you're coming from. I hope it doesn't appear like I'm trying to convince anyone. It's just a discussion. Everyone has the right to see things differently or prefer them to be different. I just really like reading about other points of view because even if I disagree with them, I find the experience enriching.

-thoughtful thesis on Jott-

Yeah, that's what I gathered over back issues, too. Again, a lot of my confusion came from my early exposure.

It makes me wonder if Percy has ever seen any of those stories or he's just too much of a fan of Logan...

It's likely the latter XD Folks from this thread likely already know, but I automatically cast doubt on most writers that declare themselves as fans of Scott prior to their run. It's like-- I don't know the term; a dog whistle? red herring?-- a sign that tells me the writer doesn't care, and is only saying so because they're forced to write Cyke. And then their run starts and Cyke gets the short-end of the stick-- further reinforcing my preconceived bias hahahaha

That is another reason that I regret this Krakoan era came at this time. Even before AvX, I think Scott took some steps that were too far. In other words, being too pragmatic was not a good thing for him in the long run. And I'm not saying those stories weren't interesting, I just think he was never given the chance to step back a little and look at certain things he had done and find the balance, you know?

In a way, AvX was a natural progression of this path. But it happened too soon and it wasn't well-executed.... Well, this message is already super long so I won't comment too much on that here. But let me know if you'd be interested in discussing it.

Yeah, I agree there were steps Utopia!Clops took that would normally be a step too far, but they're mostly justified by the context. Hunted by Bastion / Nimrod, oppressed by the Dark Avengers, reactivation of the Sentinels after they just had a slug fest against Nimrods in Second Coming. Even AvX made sense--- up until the point when the Avengers invaded Utopia again to kidnap Hope. Then the quickly execution went off the rails since it was clear the direction was going into pro-Avengers propaganda, rather than a nuanced story.

Like, in contrast, the Avengers Facebook game had their own AvX arc, and there-- without the backdrop of House of M / Decimation, Messiah Complex and Second Coming and, to a smaller extent, X-Sanction-- the mutants-side falls flat.

Side-note: there will be no AvX better than antiochene's Firebirds fanfic <3

That's why so many Jean Grey fans are upset about their relationship: they equate her romantic relationship with the reason why she wasn't given any character development. But the actual reason is that the writers just didn't bother.

Yeah, I see that argument on occasion. I honestly can't say, but I'm inclined to believe that the writers don't bother, too. Like-- "after Dark Phoenix Saga, where else can writers put Jean thru?" Apart from the low-hanging fruit / love triangle drama, anyhow.

I'm of the opinion that there is always a path, but it requires creativity and respect for the character's history, rather than changing a character to suit a story.

That said, and going on another tangent, Jean's the most prominent dead character I have ever read. It might just be because of her close relationship to the Phoenix Mythos but, at least to me, it never felt like Jean was dead post-Morrison. Certainly, Jean's specter haunted Emma. Heck, the whole schtick with Hope was people wondering if she was Jean reincarnated-- and the writers milked it.

Emma, on the other hand, was really pushed into a role where she didn't really fit. I really prefer her where she is now: in a position where being cunning and shady is a good thing. That's where she really shines.

I also like Emma doing shady things. I mean, for every one moment of Emma trying to do something right (like bringing Blink home post-Necrosha, or spiriting the depowered kids away from the institute to protect them) she's had colossal failures / miscalculations (Blink escaping or the bombing killing the kids) and it eats her up inside. It also makes a dude wanna root for her whenever she puts her pieces back together again and comes back stronger.

Oh! Can I read them?

Sure. It's pretty much Scott-centric stuff, and a lot of the early stuff are pretty whiny now that I read them years after. But, eh, if it helps pass the time:

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1008144...ffle-or-Boogie

I wouldn't want Jean to be developed in that direction, though. I don't want her to become a different character, you know? I love my girl as she is.

I want her to have panel time, I want her to be challenged when it comes to her compassion, for instance. Give her complex situations in which it is difficult to know what is right and what is wrong. Let her choose wrong and fail. Let her reflect about if she would have made a different decision. You know? Something more nuanced.

Oh, I agree. I just meant that, for peeps to get off Jean's case when it comes to, well, not acting like a saint-- as unreasonable as that is, to be fair-- she'd need character development in that direction. Again, I'm not exactly sure what direction Jean's character can go to at this point.

Especially now with Hickman pretty much relegating her to den mother / occasional (but now former) vote giver. It'll hopefully change after the gala (ugh, why?) but I'm not holding my breath. Call me jaded but I really think Jean and Scott are just there to give legitimacy to calling the book "X-Men".

But for the sake of exchanging an idea without derailing the thread too much, if it were up to me, I'dve given the Phoenix back to Jean and integrate her into Marvel Cosmic stuff. Actually exploring the process of deification and the limits of the greater good. I'm not sure what the endpoint would be, but it certainly sounds a lot more appealing to me than whatever's happening now. I know I've read manga with similar themes but I can't point to one at the moment.

Have you ever watched a film called Hero? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0299977/

I love this film. I don't want to spoil anything, but I'll just say that, through the story, it explores the theme of what it means to be a hero.

I haven't. I'll keep this in mind in case I find a copy, thanks

Her drama was wanting to be liked despite being seen as perfect. She is compassionate towards people less fortunate and feels their pain. I find her more interesting at difficult times.

Scott Summers is someone easier to relate: with all his insecurities and difficulties to communicate, he tried so hard to be worthy of Jean. Did he end believing it or did he pretend?

I tend to prefer him with Emma: both imperfect, both outcasts each one in their way…

Yeah. But my brain at five-ish years old did not understand that XD

As for Jott vs Scemma-- well, ain't that quite the minefield? Personally, since I read books as a means for exploration, both do have their merits. I suppose, as boring as it sounds, context matters. I will say that Utopia!Clops / Revolution!Clops worked because of Emma's dedication which, to some, was an unhealthy relationship on Emma's part. Certainly, Gillen seemed to love writing that angle.

In my head, if it were Jean, Scott wouldn't have turned into that level of pragmatism-- not just because of temperament, but also because Jean is such a powerhouse by herself. Though the contrary would have been an interesting story to fantasize, I suppose...

I think the relationship between Scott and Emma was good for both of them for a time, but Scott is a hero whereas Emma is an antihero, the preferred methods of each will clash too much without outside circumstances forcing one into the camp of the other.

But the dynamic certainly is interesting, amirite? XD

---

Honestly, while I'm a huge shipper at heart, this poly thing seems, so far, more like another of Hickman's sandboxes. Like, "hey, Percy, wanna write a book? You don't have to worry about shippers coz I've got a pass you can use so write to your heart's content!". It just so happens that hardly any of the current batch of writers are interested in Scemma (or Scott, as expected).

I don't think Hickman has any plans for the relationships, narratively speaking, since he's more focused on whatever theme / plot he's hammering for. Full-committing to Jott or Scemma (or Jogan) will just anger whichever subset of fans and detract from the narrative Hickman wants.

[Hizashi]

It's nice to see it so lively in here!

I can't post in detail until later, I'm working a ten hour shift today...

[Grinning Soul]

Yeah, I agree there were steps Utopia!Clops took that would normally be a step too far, but they're mostly justified by the context.

This is how I see it: he was under a lot of pressure. A LOT. So I understand why he didn't think there were other options (especially because he didn't have much time to reflect beforehand). The problem is that he crossed the line at some points and each little step took him a little further from that place of balance between the idealism and the pragmatism.

Narratively, this is actually very interesting, particularly, because it was done over several stories. But the writers never really addressed the consequences, the hardening of his soul, in a way... you know? They actually went out of their way to excuse him.

But then, they decided to change that and they just brought AvX up and executed it so badly... So all that natural, consistent progression was thrown away for no good reason. So frustrating...

Yeah, I see that argument on occasion. I honestly can't say, but I'm inclined to believe that the writers don't bother, too. Like-- "after Dark Phoenix Saga, where else can writers put Jean thru?" Apart from the low-hanging fruit / love triangle drama, anyhow.

Believe it or not, I've seen Jean's fans saying it.

To which I reply: "This is like saying after Born Again, there will be no other Daredevil story to be told." Seriously. It makes no sense. It's possible no story will ever top Born Again, but that's no reason to give up on the character. I absolutely love the end of Fall From Grace: https://64.media.tumblr.com/01e3cff1...tzwnrz_540.jpg

Guess what? Written after Born Again... *sigh*

I'm of the opinion that there is always a path, but it requires creativity and respect for the character's history, rather than changing a character to suit a story.

Preach!

That said, and going on another tangent, Jean's the most prominent dead character I have ever read. It might just be because of her close relationship to the Phoenix Mythos but, at least to me, it never felt like Jean was dead post-Morrison. Certainly, Jean's specter haunted Emma. Heck, the whole schtick with Hope was people wondering if she was Jean reincarnated-- and the writers milked it.

That tells you the strenght of the character. And you know why her absence was so felt? Because those characters love her. Because she's like a glue that keeps people together. Because they felt there was something going wrong with the path they were taking. They understood the necessity, but it didn't feel right. And they believed that if she was around, somehow, things would be different.

That ties with what you say here:

In my head, if it were Jean, Scott wouldn't have turned into that level of pragmatism-- not just because of temperament, but also because Jean is such a powerhouse by herself. Though the contrary would have been an interesting story to fantasize, I suppose...

I agree with you. I think she would have asked him to stop and reflect. She would have seen those little steps over the line and point them out to him. And because it was her, he would have seen them too.

You know? Being with Emma is actually much easier for him, exactly because of that (and other reasons like she's much more of a rational person than Jean). For someone like him, not having to second-guess himself is a relief. But not second-guessing himself is also a dangerous path. Scott is way too good at compartimentalising things, especially feelings.

And I think that was the overall feeling of the people around him. Something was not going right with him, but no one could really reach him.

I mean, just an example: I doubt Jean would have let him kick Charles out of his own house after the revelations of Deadly Genesis, especially saying something to the effect of: "you're not even a mutant"... Don't get me wrong, she would be upset with Charles too but I think she'd try to get them to talk and make amends because those two mean so much to each other, you know?

Oh, I agree. I just meant that, for peeps to get off Jean's case when it comes to, well, not acting like a saint-- as unreasonable as that is, to be fair-- she'd need character development in that direction. Again, I'm not exactly sure what direction Jean's character can go to at this point.

Well, with the new X-Men book, I'd love if Jean and Scott would find their own roles in the Krakoan society. For instance, how could they move the team in a way that would be more aligned with the things they fought so hard to have throughout their lives? The marriage between idealism and pragmatism. :)

It would be awesome if they decided that Krakoa could not be a final solution to the problem. If they could see that, in the end, true co-existence is the only real solution and Krakoa was just a means to an end.

I'd love if they embraced the mantle of the true heirs of the X-dream and together they were the architects of this new path. As the brain and the heart of the enterprise, you know?

The fact they decided to actually start using the name X-Men again gives me hope. But I'm really trying not to be too optimistic about it.

But for the sake of exchanging an idea without derailing the thread too much, if it were up to me, I'dve given the Phoenix back to Jean and integrate her into Marvel Cosmic stuff. Actually exploring the process of deification and the limits of the greater good. I'm not sure what the endpoint would be, but it certainly sounds a lot more appealing to me than whatever's happening now. I know I've read manga with similar themes but I can't point to one at the moment."

If AvX hadn't happened, I'd like Jean to have fixed the Force and released it to the cosmos, knowing that, like CC wrote, staying with the force leads to a Dark Phoenix path. And then we could have some minis in which the Force kinda grabs her to do some Phoenix work because it needs her humanity. After the work is done, she goes back to her mortal life.

But Marvel keeps insisting on writing the Force as this parasitic/destructive thing, so no... I prefer it to be as far as possible to her.


PS: I'll check your stories. Thanks for sharing. :)

[ermac]

I see Scott playing games like Civilization or Total War. Maybe Among Us.

What about music? I guess I picture him enjoying some soft rock, like a typical daddy millennial. Not N'Sync lol.

[Grinning Soul]

I see Scott playing games like Civilization or Total War. Maybe Among Us.

What about music? I guess I picture him enjoying some soft rock, like a typical daddy millennial. Not N'Sync lol.

I think Scott would be annoyed with cheating AIs (as a way to make a game more difficult). I think he plays chess and other games like that, which is actually relaxing for him. When he can't find someone who actually enjoys it, he plays against computers.

As for music: Elvis Presley, old romantic songs, hard rock and progressive rock. I can see him saying, grumpily, that no good music is being made nowadays, though, there might be some corny guilty pleasures here and there. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCtdKWWfZG8

[Neocide]

Scott would totally play RPGs, strategic ones for sure. the master of creating ensembles and getting people to work together and creating diff strategies for fighting different enemies etc he'd be obsessed to the point Jean would have to physically pull him away.

Persona 5 would def have some comedy implications when it comes to who he might choose as a gf as well.

He'd def love pokemon.