Scott Summers aka Cyclops Appreciation 2021

[Hizashi]

Yes! Even better, I’d say, because of her telepathy.

They're trained together forever and Scott is a strategic genius. They should have thousands of manoeuvres combining their minds working in unison with the defensive/offensive/ricocheting/bending attributes of their powers. They should fight like one and it should be as natural as breathing. Really: defeating them when they’re fighting together should be ridiculously difficult.

Plus, would it hurt to see more of this?



If you're going to have the crazy lives those heroes have, who wouldn't want to live it with a love that is crazy passionate like that?

Scott and Jean are that couple that can't keep their hands off of each other, not being obnoxious, they just can't help it.

[Grinning Soul]

Yep, give me that book and I'd be a happy customer.

I'd be embarrassingly giddy! Really: I'd have to read alone in a room, because I'd squealing! :D

Scott and Jean are that couple that can't keep their hands off of each other, not being obnoxious, they just can't help it.

You're not obnoxious at all. It's just the truth. They used to ooze their chemistry in most panels where they were together. They even ran, during missions, holding hands. That's one of things that makes them so god-damn visually iconic as a couple.

And what makes me so frustrated that Marvel can't see it. ARGH!

If they were a DC couple, the editors/writers wouldn't hold their powers back. They'd be allowed to live to their full potential and every person in the world would know of them. But it's Marvel. They leave her dead for 15 years and them apart for other... what? 1-2? And then, when they finally reunited, they put them in a relationship that the majority of the fans don't like... *facepalm*

[Kal-El Summers]

Yes! Even better, I’d say, because of her telepathy.

They're trained together forever and Scott is a strategic genius. They should have thousands of manoeuvres combining their minds working in unison with the defensive/offensive/ricocheting/bending attributes of their powers. They should fight like one and it should be as natural as breathing. Really: defeating them when they’re fighting together should be ridiculously difficult.

Plus, would it hurt to see more of this?



If you're going to have the crazy lives those heroes have, who wouldn't want to live it with a love that is crazy passionate like that?

Honestly, that's my favorite page out of that entire wretched crossover.

[Grinning Soul]

Honestly, that's my favorite page out of that entire wretched crossover.

Like most tough guys of the 90s, Cable used to be a character that made my eyes roll every time he appeared. A clone of him...? You can imagine how I felt about Strife.

But the crossover also has this scene: https://imgur.com/ceAV27p

They could have made they talk to each other through telepathy/rapport, but I love that they chose the page to be silent instead.

[Cyked]

I grew up with a rocky home life. I used to read the X-Men in the 90's as an escape. Jean and Scott for me were the parents I wished I had. I want to say that part first, so people don't think I just hate that couple.

For me a combination of the fans, the films, and the comics after the first movie came out really poisoned that pairing for me. There was too much of a push to blame either side as being the worst (oddly as Grinning Soul seems to have experienced Jean blame, for me its been overwhelming Cyke blame). I've posted a while back how for a lot of fans, that love triangle feels more about having their character "winning" then writing a healthy relationship.

Then you had the comics around the Morrison era pushing the love triangle so much (Jean and Wolverine kissing at least twice at that point, and the infamous psychic affair. Heck the X-Men Evolution comic even has grown man Wolverine thinking about how beautiful and mature teen Jean is!) that I stopped being a fan of the pair. They started to feel more like that couple that should break up and be the closest best of friends. The one that gets you in ways your romantic partners never will. For me the magic is gone, and I'd honestly rather just see both move on to be with someone else.

[Grinning Soul]

I grew up with a rocky home life. I used to read the X-Men in the 90's as an escape. Jean and Scott for me were the parents I wished I had. I want to say that part first, so people don't think I just hate that couple.

For me a combination of the fans, the films, and the comics after the first movie came out really poisoned that pairing for me. There was too much of a push to blame either side as being the worst (oddly as Grinning Soul seems to have experienced Jean blame, for me its been overwhelming Cyke blame). I've posted a while back how for a lot of fans, that love triangle feels more about having their character "winning" then writing a healthy relationship.

Then you had the comics around the Morrison era pushing the love triangle so much (Jean and Wolverine kissing at least twice at that point, and the infamous psychic affair. Heck the X-Men Evolution comic even has grown man Wolverine thinking about how beautiful and mature teen Jean is!) that I stopped being a fan of the pair. They started to feel more like that couple that should break up and be the closest best of friends. The one that gets you in ways your romantic partners never will. For me the magic is gone, and I'd honestly rather just see both move on to be with someone else.

I might be wrong here, but during Morrison's run, there was one kiss between Logan and Jean. And that's actually a perfect example of what I was talking about. She goes to talk to him. She opens up about how she's feeling about her marriage and then he goes and kisses her. Tells her it's never going to work between them and walks away. And Jean is to blame. For being kissed... Things like that make me want to go Dark Phoenix, seriously.

Is it possible she went to talk to Logan because, subconsciouly, she wanted to feel desired? Yes. Scott hadn't touched her in 5 months and she's suspicious about his trip to Hong Kong. It's certainly possible. But she's talking about how miserable she is feeling, opening up to a friend. If she was there trying to seduce Logan, she only had to take her trench coat off. Or bite her lower lip. Or even just give him a look of "come and get it". She didn't. She was there because she needed a friend.

So, yeah, I get what you mean. All those writers trying to destroy their relationship just because they didn't like it... It's tiring. It's exhausting, even. And honestly, if they don't snap out of this current BS and make it work now, I also want them to be apart. For good. No stupid back and forth. Burn the bridge and move on.

[Cyked]

I might be wrong here, but during Morrison's run, there was one kiss between Logan and Jean. And that's actually a perfect example of what I was talking about. She goes to talk to him. She opens up about how she's feeling about her marriage and then he goes and kisses her. Tells her it's never going to work between them and walks away. And Jean is to blame. For being kissed... Things like that make me want to go Dark Phoenix, seriously.

Is it possible she went to talk to Logan because, subconsciouly, she wanted to feel desired? Yes. Scott hadn't touched her in 5 months and she's suspicious about his trip to Hong Kong. It's certainly possible. But she's talking about how miserable she is feeling, opening up to a friend. If she was there trying to seduce Logan, she only had to take her trench coat off. Or bite her lower lip. Or even just give him a look of "come and get it". She didn't. She was there because she needed a friend.

So, yeah, I get what you mean. All those writers trying to destroy their relationship just because they didn't like it... It's tiring. It's exhausting, even. And honestly, if they don't snap out of this current BS and make it work now, I also want them to be apart. For good. No stupid back and forth. Burn the bridge and move on.

The first time they show Cyke and Emma having their "Therapy"(affair) is in New X-Men #131 October 15th 2002, Jean and Wolverine kiss in Morrison's run which you do mention in New X-Men #117 in October 2001. However I am also talking about Uncanny X-Men #394 which while not under Morrison's pen is still that rough time period in July 2001.

This is one of those things that yes, I could go in and talk about things with them as people. I will say if my wife went through something horribly traumatizing (think about any real world equivalent to being bound with Apocalypse), I know 5 months of no touching I wouldn't jump to kissing another woman. I'd assume it was trauma and not a lack of interest in our marriage. Personally as a fan I could rebound from that and still enjoy the pairing. It was what felt like outside interference that made it into cannon that killed it for me. It felt more like who's character was "winning" then a real story. Jean's sudden kissing Wolverine as a married woman twice around the same time the films came out (mind you I'm only counting since they were married.)

I'm not trying to slam or blame Jean, to me the whole pairing became not fun anymore due to this, and all the AU books where the two (Jean and Wolverine were together (What if AvX anyone?).

[Grinning Soul]

The first time they show Cyke and Emma having their "Therapy"(affair) is in New X-Men #131 October 15th 2002, Jean and Wolverine kiss in Morrison's run which you do mention in New X-Men #117 in October 2001. However I am also talking about Uncanny X-Men #394 which while not under Morrison's pen is still that rough time period in July 2001.

This is one of those things that yes, I could go in and talk about things with them as people. I'm not talking that part, because that part doesn't ruin it for me. It was what felt like outside interference that made it into cannon that killed it for me. Jean's sudden kissing Wolverine as a married woman twice around the same time the films came out (mind you I'm only counting since they were married.)

I'm not trying to slam or blame Jean, to me the whole pairing became not fun anymore due to this, and all the AU books where the two were together (What if AvX anyone?)

Yeah. I'd forgotten about the one: "we're about to die, so I'll kiss you". At least, Morrison didn't resort to that cliché when they were about to die on space.

But that's the thing. The man (Logan) doesn't seem to understand the concept of consent, but she gets the blame. He knows she feels attracted to him. He knows she always eventually pushes him back and feels terrible about it. Yet, he keeps grabbing her.

[Cyked]

Yeah. I'd forgotten about the one: "we're about to die, so I'll kiss you". At least, Morrison didn't resort to that cliché when they were about to die on space.

But that's the thing. The man (Logan) doesn't seem to understand the concept of consent, but she gets the blame. He knows she feels attracted to him. He knows she always eventually pushes him back and feels terrible about it. Yet, he keeps grabbing her.

Well she didn't seem too angry in that comic either though. Just quiet. This is a comic, we get to hear their thoughts. I agree about the consent thing, and that Wolverine is written with his fair share of problematic moments. I'm not blaming Jean. It feels like you think I am, but my major issue is with what feels like outside desires over in character motives.

[Cyked]

Yeah. I'd forgotten about the one: "we're about to die, so I'll kiss you". At least, Morrison didn't resort to that cliché when they were about to die on space.

But that's the thing. The man (Logan) doesn't seem to understand the concept of consent, but she gets the blame. He knows she feels attracted to him. He knows she always eventually pushes him back and feels terrible about it. Yet, he keeps grabbing her.

Also I apologize. I edited the post you responded to before I knew you were responding. Thought I could pull it off before you responded. Wasn't trying to pull a fast one.

[Grinning Soul]

Well she didn't seem too angry in that comic either though. Just quiet. This is a comic, we get to hear their thoughts. I agree about the consent thing, and that Wolverine is written with his fair share of problematic moments. I'm not blaming Jean. It feels like you think I am, but my major issue is with what feels like outside desires over in character motives.

I'm not upset with you. Don't worry. It's much bigger. It's a two-fold problem.

1) A female is not supposed to be so sexual that she gets taken by a passionate moment before she snaps out of it. Heck, if she's in a relationship she's not even supposed to feel attracted to anyone else other than her partner.
2) Even though Logan literally grabs her *every* god damn time where they kiss, she's still to blame.

As for that story, she doesn't have time to push him back or get upset. She's too disoriented, she doesn't even remember well what happened. And he, as usual, is being a jerk about it.

[Cyked]

I'm not upset with you. Don't worry. It's much bigger. It's a two-fold problem.

1) A female is not supposed to be so sexual that she gets taken by a passionate moment before she snaps out of it. Heck, if she's in a relationship she's not even supposed to feel attracted to anyone else other than her partner.
2) Even thought Logan literally grabs her *every* god damn time where they kiss, she's still to blame.

As for that story, she doesn't have time to push him back or get upset. She's too disoriented, she doesn't even remember well what happened. And he, as usual, is being a jerk about it.

New X-Men #117 its pretty unclear that Logan grabbed her. They're talking then next pane her hand is also grabbing him. I wouldn't say he grabs her EVERY time. I'm also not saying she's unable to be attracted to other people. I didn't bring up the pre-marriage kissing during the X-Factor/X-Men crossover days for example.

"For that Story..." that's really a huge part of my problem. This is a comic, her thoughts should have been addressed. If Jean really didn't want it, we should have been able to read her thought bubbles at the very least about it, if not that comic in some other comic. Her view on it doesn't get shown so its just as easily assumed to be one of Wolverine and Jean's great romantic moments, with that art used by Logan and Jean shippers over and over as support that Jean really wants to be with Wolverine.

[Grinning Soul]

New X-Men #117 its pretty unclear that Logan grabbed her. They're talking then next pane her hand is also grabbing him. I wouldn't say he grabs her EVERY time. I'm also not saying she's unable to be attracted to other people. I didn't bring up the pre-marriage kissing during the X-Factor/X-Men crossover days for example.

"For that Story..." that's really a huge part of my problem. This is a comic, her thoughts should have been addressed. If Jean really didn't want it, we should have been able to read her thought bubbles at the very least about it, if not that comic in some other comic. Her view on it doesn't get shown so its just as easily assumed to be one of Wolverine and Jean's great romantic moments, with that art used by Logan and Jean shippers over and over as support that Jean really wants to be with Wolverine.

In New X-Men #117, she's talking about Scott and she's not even facing Logan. So, I think we can infer that he grabbed her. And yes, she always kisses him back. That's the point I was making. I don't like it but she has this crazy attraction to him. Most of the times, she pushes him away, though. But there are exceptions, like Scott cutting in or something happening around them. The thing is, even though we don't see the thought bubbles, we can see she's not okay with it after the kiss.

You see... Think of instances of rape in which no one would argue if that was rape or not. Do you know that some victims, both males and females, actually experience an orgasm? It's one of the most psychologically damaging scenarios because it's very confusing.

Now... I wouldn't say a kiss is the same as rape (although, in some coutries it actually is, legally speaking), but enjoying the experience doesn't make it less abusive. It's about consent not repulsion.

But I do agree: I'd like the see the thought bubbles too. They just don't used them often anymore.

[Cyked]

In New X-Men #117, she's talking about Scott and she's not even facing Logan. So, I think we can infer that he grabbed her. And yes, she always kisses him back. That's the point I was making. I don't like it but she has this crazy attraction to him. Most of the times, she pushes him away, though. But there are exceptions, like Scott cutting in or something happening around them. The thing is, even though we don't see the thought bubbles, we can see she's not okay with it after the kiss.

You see... Think of instances of rape in which no one would argue if that was rape or not. Do you know that some victims, both males and females, actually experience an orgasm? It's one of the most psychologically damaging scenarios because it's very confusing.

Now... I wouldn't say a kiss is the same as rape (although, in some coutries it actually is, legally speaking), but enjoying the experience doesn't make it less abusive. It's about consent not repulsion.

But I do agree: I'd like the see the thought bubbles too. They just don't used them often anymore.

Oh I've had discussions about these sorts of issues (Xavier and Gabriel Haller for example, or Xavier with Mirage) in comics. I also am aware of physiological and psychological responses to trauma like this (I've debated with Scemma shippers the issue with how they started as a couple too).

What would mean a lot for me would be those thought bubbles. Showing the confusion, or feelings of guilt and self-blame (please note here I mean the feelings common among survivors and not that she deserves it. Think about "I'm an Omega mutant, why did I just allow..." sort of thought process). If they put those things in there and explored that angle it'd be interesting read and I'd feel for Jean. I agree also we can infer, but the issue is there are plenty of other people who infer in a different direction. Especially given the timing with the X-Men films. This is what I mean by the pairing were just ruined for me. It didn't feel like the writers were intentionally writing Wolverine as problematic. That whole issue comes off as "rebel bad boy vs varsity guy fighting over who takes the cheerleader to the prom" and less like what it was....team mate you need to trust with your life putting the moves on a married woman in a life or death situation.

[Grinning Soul]

It just occurred to me that I’m talking more about Scott in Jean’s thread and about Jean in his. It’s the way the conversations developed, but still: what a mess. I do apologise.

@Cyked: Maybe we continue this discussion in private?