Scott Summers aka Cyclops Appreciation 2021

[Hizashi]

Lol, that's a good point. I feel like that would have been an interesting direction to take things if there was one.

At the end of the day, the situation seems to raise more questions than answers. At least some fans seem to be getting enjoyment out of it.

That being said, I hope Duggan gives us some good leadership moments from Scott. I feel like that's been lacking for him. Ideally, Scott and Jean should equally share the leadership and planning.



Good to hear. As for the X-books, same here. They just don't seem to be interesting me in the moment, and that's fine. I don't mind waiting, especially if it saves me some money for all my other hobbies.

Jott leadership for sure.

I just haven't taken X-Men off my pull list, but the Gala thing might do it. I think the last issue I read completely was #15 or something.

[Hizashi]

In mythology, the more common thing is "I'm immortal so I'm going to **** everything that has a pulse", the bar right now is in "turn into a golden shower to impregnate woman locked in a room with no doors" not even a male god turning into a mare to be impregnated by a horse can compete with that
Abandoning human morality, especially regarding heterosexual monogamy, after becoming immortal is kinda a common trope in literature

I need to read more literature.

Fair enough, it just isn't justified in my opinion, but I'm hardly an authority on this. I just don't see immortality=godhood -> polyamory. I think you'd have to be a little predisposed to it.

[Hizashi]

Breaking that unwritten rule pretty much erased all the stakes to any story. Which is why events have to insert some contrived form of Megadeath-- but the only Megadeath I support doesn't have a second 'a' in its name.

Yay for Hickman adding to the X-Men mythos. Nay to the approach. Granted, I haven't read an X-Book in months but, last I remember, X-Men read like an editor's notes.

Has Cyke and Lorna bumped uglies yet?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, death ain't shiz even in-universe prior to Hickman.

[maxi_miceli]

Breaking that unwritten rule pretty much erased all the stakes to any story. Which is why events have to insert some contrived form of Megadeath-- but the only Megadeath I support doesn't have a second 'a' in its name.

Yay for Hickman adding to the X-Men mythos. Nay to the approach. Granted, I haven't read an X-Book in months but, last I remember, X-Men read like an editor's notes.

Has Cyke and Lorna bumped uglies yet?

It's a very interesting concept, and it has been done well IMO, it addressed something everyone has been complaining about comics for decades, death was already meaningless but they kept insisting on using it as if it wasn't. Anyone here thought that Cyclops was dead for good when he died a couple of years ago? the main demand wasn't "bring him back" it was "bring him back now" we all knew he was coming back, just not when. And there are still stakes, even bigger than before. Because this story started by telling us that the end is coming, which of course will be prevented in Hickman's final arc (I doubt that Marvel intends to close their doors in a few years), but even if the world won't end it the current status quo will and all can be lost. They switched the stakes from being about a characters death to being about the society as a whole (and I really hope that when Hickman leaves he doesn't end Krakoa, going back to the mansion or something like that would be a massive setback, they can build different stories with the mutants still having their own society, perhaps interacting much more with the rest of the world)

[maxi_miceli]

We got the first in-comic look at Cyclops gala suit
https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1382332989842014212

[Hizashi]

It's a very interesting concept, and it has been done well IMO, it addressed something everyone has been complaining about comics for decades, death was already meaningless but they kept insisting on using it as if it wasn't. Anyone here thought that Cyclops was dead for good when he died a couple of years ago? the main demand wasn't "bring him back" it was "bring him back now" we all knew he was coming back, just not when. And there are still stakes, even bigger than before. Because this story started by telling us that the end is coming, which of course will be prevented in Hickman's final arc (I doubt that Marvel intends to close their doors in a few years), but even if the world won't end it the current status quo will and all can be lost. They switched the stakes from being about a characters death to being about the society as a whole (and I really hope that when Hickman leaves he doesn't end Krakoa, going back to the mansion or something like that would be a massive setback, they can build different stories with the mutants still having their own society, perhaps interacting much more with the rest of the world)

They threw most of Morrison's work away, and Hickman's parallels nicely with it. Personally, nothing about this era so far will have me wistful for it once it's gone.

[maxi_miceli]

They threw most of Morrison's work away, and Hickman's parallels nicely with it. Personally, nothing about this era so far will have me wistful for it once it's gone.

This is basically another attempt at doing what Morrison did (but with much better art and not throwing a lot of main characters' personal history to the thrash as Morrison did with Scott) It's exactly why I'm afraid of what happens when he leaves, I hope it's not another M-day, which given what they showed of the future it could very well be.
The next author needs to evolve on this, not throw everything away. The best-case scenario is a writer that cares more about personal relationships (which Hickman openly does not) and uses this scenario to expand on the personal stuff.
Marvel has a really big problem with mutants, the logical development would lead to a world much different than ours and that brings problems to a lot of writers that want their characters to exists on a world parallel to ours. This is why I like Krakoa a lot, it provides an excellent compromise that allows both things to coexist

(the very best scenario and the logical conclusion of the development of a post-scarcity society is another but I doubt Disney would ever allow that story to run, not when now they are running shows in their kids channel telling kids about how helping each other is bad)

[Hizashi]

This is basically another attempt at doing what Morrison did (but with much better art and not throwing a lot of main characters' personal history to the thrash as Morrison did with Scott) It's exactly why I'm afraid of what happens when he leaves, I hope it's not another M-day, which given what they showed of the future it could very well be.
The next author needs to evolve on this, not throw everything away. The best-case scenario is a writer that cares more about personal relationships (which Hickman openly does not) and uses this scenario to expand on the personal stuff.
Marvel has a really big problem with mutants, the logical development would lead to a world much different than ours and that brings problems to a lot of writers that want their characters to exists on a world parallel to ours. This is why I like Krakoa a lot, it provides an excellent compromise that allows both things to coexist

(the very best scenario and the logical conclusion of the development of a post-scarcity society is another but I doubt Disney would ever allow that story to run, not when now they are running shows in their kids channel telling kids about how helping each other is bad)

The art is better, true. Assuming Hickman's run concludes with the aversion of the worst case scenario, then a middle-ground between this and what came before would be good.

Have we discussed the possibility that Hickman's run will end up a prequel to Claremont's and that the good ending leads to it?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Anyone else liked his time as Basilisk from the Age of X storyline?

I liked his dynamic with Frenzy and him being the wild card of the group.

[xiyon]

Anyone else liked his time as Basilisk from the Age of X storyline?

I liked his dynamic with Frenzy and him being the wild card of the group.

It was fun but there wasn't enough of it for me to be really invested.

I like the concept of Basilisk, though.

It's a very interesting concept, and it has been done well IMO, it addressed something everyone has been complaining about comics for decades, death was already meaningless but they kept insisting on using it as if it wasn't. Anyone here thought that Cyclops was dead for good when he died a couple of years ago? the main demand wasn't "bring him back" it was "bring him back now" we all knew he was coming back, just not when. And there are still stakes, even bigger than before. Because this story started by telling us that the end is coming, which of course will be prevented in Hickman's final arc (I doubt that Marvel intends to close their doors in a few years), but even if the world won't end it the current status quo will and all can be lost. They switched the stakes from being about a characters death to being about the society as a whole (and I really hope that when Hickman leaves he doesn't end Krakoa, going back to the mansion or something like that would be a massive setback, they can build different stories with the mutants still having their own society, perhaps interacting much more with the rest of the world)

For long-running narratives from DC and Marvel, death will always be meaningless. If a character is sufficiently popular enough, there'll always be some way to bring them back; if there's a demand, writers will supply. That's just good business.

That said, we used to get stories where death had meaning, giving events weight. It used to develop characters and drive storylines. Dark Phoenix Saga and its aftermath (literally gave us a bunch of timeless characters like Rachel Grey, Madelyne Pryor, and Cable, and the frickin' mythos of the Cosmic Fire Turkey), Colossus' sacrifice and return as the Destroyer of Breakworld. Illyana's complete transformation into the Darkchilde and subsequent, well, Soul Quest. One might even throw Prof X in AvX even if that one was contrived. Now, death is a regular Tuesday for these characters.

Again, yay for adding more mythos instead of regurgitating nostalgia for all they're worth, but nay to the approach. Like, really--- if 90% of the X-Men died in the next event (a... gala???? why?), why can't they just mass-resurrect people?

"Time and resources"? Eh, just clone the 5. Sinister's there, anyways.

"But cloning is bad!" Cuckoos say 'hi'.

The suspension of disbelief was, to me, thoroughly broken.

[maxi_miceli]

The art is better, true. Assuming Hickman's run concludes with the aversion of the worst case scenario, then a middle-ground between this and what came before would be good.

Have we discussed the possibility that Hickman's run will end up a prequel to Claremont's and that the good ending leads to it?

What do you mean by this? days of future past?

[maxi_miceli]

For long-running narratives from DC and Marvel, death will always be meaningless. If a character is sufficiently popular enough, there'll always be some way to bring them back; if there's a demand, writers will supply. That's just good business.

That said, we used to get stories where death had meaning, giving events weight. It used to develop characters and drive storylines. Dark Phoenix Saga and its aftermath (literally gave us a bunch of timeless characters like Rachel Grey, Madelyne Pryor, and Cable, and the frickin' mythos of the Cosmic Fire Turkey), Colossus' sacrifice and return as the Destroyer of Breakworld. Illyana's complete transformation into the Darkchilde and subsequent, well, Soul Quest. One might even throw Prof X in AvX even if that one was contrived. Now, death is a regular Tuesday for these characters.

Again, yay for adding more mythos instead of regurgitating nostalgia for all they're worth, but nay to the approach. Like, really--- if 90% of the X-Men died in the next event (a... gala???? why?), why can't they just mass-resurrect people?

"Time and resources"? Eh, just clone the 5. Sinister's there, anyways.

"But cloning is bad!" Cuckoos say 'hi'.

The suspension of disbelief was, to me, thoroughly broken.

There was only one way that could have been avoided, it was Claremont's plan that started with the original ending for the Dark Phoenix saga, Jean and Scott retiring. He had the idea of time actually passing and character retiring and leaving the reigns of the team to the younger heroes, then introducing new young heroes and repeating the process. On a narrative matter it would have worked amazingly, on a commercial matter I doubt it would have survived 1 or 2 decades before it runs out of an audience, I know I never would have gotten into the X-men in that scenario.
I don't think there have been any other stories that ran for 60+ years with dozens of different authors in a single universe, this kind of things are going to happen, the only way to survive is with the popularity of the characters and after one of the writers has the grand idea to kill one of them the next might find that that character was important to a narrative or wants to attract the readers that were fans of the character

I'm glad that they took away death as a tool, it was more often than not a cheap way to get attention, we got to the point where several characters died every year (in marvel in general, not just X-men)

[xiyon]

There was only one way that could have been avoided, it was Claremont's plan that started with the original ending for the Dark Phoenix saga, Jean and Scott retiring. He had the idea of time actually passing and character retiring and leaving the reigns of the team to the younger heroes, then introducing new young heroes and repeating the process. On a narrative matter it would have worked amazingly, on a commercial matter I doubt it would have survived 1 or 2 decades before it runs out of an audience, I know I never would have gotten into the X-men in that scenario.
I don't think there have been any other stories that ran for 60+ years with dozens of different authors in a single universe, this kind of things are going to happen, the only way to survive is with the popularity of the characters and after one of the writers has the grand idea to kill one of them the next might find that that character was important to a narrative or wants to attract the readers that were fans of the character

I'm glad that they took away death as a tool, it was more often than not a cheap way to get attention, we got to the point where several characters died every year (in marvel in general, not just X-men)

Pretty much. Marvel (and DC) are in an unwinnable dilemma. I suppose the problem I have is, especially over the last decade-- when Marvel was trying to create or make legacy characters rise to prominence-- in-universe death of a popular character turned into a cheap plot device. Like, you just know it's not going to stick. Hickman coming in and nailing that memo to the wall just further reinforces the statement. All this said, I, personally, can't get invested anymore in X-Men stories because all the resurrection/cloning shenanigans makes it feel like I'm reading a parody. And while some books do try to insert rules to the process (ahem, X-Factor), it now comes off extremely contrived, at best, and feeling like a retcon, at worst. A sort-of "oopsie, now how do we put this mess back inside Pandora's box?"

Ah, well. Too each their own. Moving away from Marvel did allow me to appreciate other books I missed and spend more on other manga titles. I just shelled out for the complete series of Invincible (in part because the animated series got me intrigued) and, wow, I can't believe I ignored this one when it came out.

[Omega Alpha]

There was only one way that could have been avoided, it was Claremont's plan that started with the original ending for the Dark Phoenix saga, Jean and Scott retiring. He had the idea of time actually passing and character retiring and leaving the reigns of the team to the younger heroes, then introducing new young heroes and repeating the process.

As was previously discussed many times, this is completely false. Not only because Scott and Jean aren't older than most people on that team (and significantly younger than Logan), but Claremont NEVER had plans to retire the likes of Storm, Wolverine, Kitty, etc. The entire point of removing Scott from the table was so his pet character Storm could be the leader. The "having characters moving on" thing was just an excuse.

[maxi_miceli]

Pretty much. Marvel (and DC) are in an unwinnable dilemma. I suppose the problem I have is, especially over the last decade-- when Marvel was trying to create or make legacy characters rise to prominence-- in-universe death of a popular character turned into a cheap plot device. Like, you just know it's not going to stick. Hickman coming in and nailing that memo to the wall just further reinforces the statement. All this said, I, personally, can't get invested anymore in X-Men stories because all the resurrection/cloning shenanigans makes it feel like I'm reading a parody. And while some books do try to insert rules to the process (ahem, X-Factor), it now comes off extremely contrived, at best, and feeling like a retcon, at worst. A sort-of "oopsie, now how do we put this mess back inside Pandora's box?"

Ah, well. Too each their own. Moving away from Marvel did allow me to appreciate other books I missed and spend more on other manga titles. I just shelled out for the complete series of Invincible (in part because the animated series got me intrigued) and, wow, I can't believe I ignored this one when it came out.

I think you are reading it wrong, it's not that death doesn't stick anymore, there is no death, when Quire gets cut in half in X-force the reader isn't meant to interpret that as him dying but the death not mattering, he essentially isn't dead (IMO the bad part is that it enabled writers like Percy to go all crazy with the gore, and I really dislike gore outside pure gore settings so it makes his book unreadable)

But at the end of the day, you just mentioned the most important part "Too each their own" not every comic is going to be for everyone and is good to expand your reading habits, I've been also reading a lot more manga lately, from the classics like Inuyasha to new stuff like chainsaw man, Horimiya and Kaguya-sama (yes, I found out since the pandemic started that I'm a real sucker for Japanese rom-com). Just in case, Jump's owner has an app that allows you to read the first 3 and last 3 issues of their mangas, manga+