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  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    As far as we know, Scott doesn't know about the Moira stuff - so why has Scott stepped back under Xavier's direction after everything that happened the last few years? Why would he work under Sinister and Apocalypse, who have done so much to hurt him and his loved ones, done so much to ruin his life?
    I don't think Cyke needs to know about the Moira stuff to work with Sinister and Poccy. I do think a story can be told where they're forced to work together, put aside their differences, and eventually decide they can work long-term-- but that story got entirely skipped to reboot the franchise / jumpstart the new normal i.e. Krakoa. Kinda like Cyke working with Magneto at the beginning of Utopia because their species were literally facing extinction at the time, and having Mags on your side is a lot safer than having him working against you. That Mags almost died to bring Kitty back from the Breakworld Bullet also counts for brownie points.

    And, eh, maybe WoX will tell that story-- I don't know; I'm not reading any of the Marvel books anymore. I did see that Si is acknowledging the questions regarding the Crucible but it's too effing late to sound organic. Now it just sounds like cheap drama.

    If anything, I'm more interested in spoilers:
    Ruth and Legion
    end of spoilers. Especially Rosenburger did what he did because he needed therapy. I'll give it until the end of the first story arc before deciding if it's the one Marvel book worth picking up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I know that WoX is supposed to give us answers, but I'm not convinced that these are the genuine articles. I actually laughed when I read Giant-Size X-Men: Storm and she went on an entire quest to prevent her death from an advanced form of the Legacy Virus - I mean why? What's the point? Just respawn. SMH.
    I vaguely remember that to be its plot, and that was my reaction, too. Art was pretty, at least, but, yeah--- when (most of) the X-Men are happily lopping off peeps' heads in the Crucible, should we really be feeling anything when they're killed? They literally have a priority list to boot their save file.
    Let your wallet talk.
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    Jean had more presence in death than Cyke in Hickman's entire run.
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  2. #452
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yeah, that's a good point.

    I know it's nice to see Scott spending time with his family, but let me ask: does it make sense to y'all that Scott would willingly work with Sinister and Apocalypse?
    Well Scott still seems to hate Sinister. That's a good thing at least. As for Apocalypse, I'm not sure Scott has voiced his current opinion on him. It's probably not deemed as important to the narrative.

    That being said, I feel like the small nuances of characters would probably benefit this run more in the long run. The more differing opinions voiced in the books the more likely readers would probably feel that the characters they love are still the characters they love.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJpyro View Post
    Read Way of X. Man I wish Spurrier was writing Scott again.
    This made me feel better after having read X-force, lol.
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  3. #453
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    As far as we know, Scott doesn't know about the Moira stuff - so why has Scott stepped back under Xavier's direction after everything that happened the last few years? Why would he work under Sinister and Apocalypse, who have done so much to hurt him and his loved ones, done so much to ruin his life?

    I know that WoX is supposed to give us answers, but I'm not convinced that these are the genuine articles. I actually laughed when I read Giant-Size X-Men: Storm and she went on an entire quest to prevent her death from an advanced form of the Legacy Virus - I mean why? What's the point? Just respawn. SMH.
    This is kind of the “wall” when it comes to the Hickman era. You’re either willing to accept that off panel all of the X-Men embraced Xavier’s new dream, or you aren’t. If you can’t accept it, nothing about this era will appeal to you. I accepted it because I think what Hickman was doing with HoX/PoX was fascinating and that the X-Men needed a new direction that wasn’t just constant genocides and Claremont nostalgia.

    That said Scott isn’t just meekly following orders. Xavier and Magneto basically tell him “kill Orchis if you need to in order to stop Nimrod” but Scott insists on going non lethal for that mission. He’s stood up to the Quiet Council a few times such as when they discussed imprisoning Havok. He blatantly disobeyed Xavier’s rule about no more X-Men, and is back to fighting for a world that hates and fears him, not just Krakoa. So he’s much more defiant than he was in his youth even as he clearly is supporting this new dream of a united mutantdom.

    The thing is, Magneto was also a villain for a long time who tried to murder Scott and his friends. Yet he and Scott ended up becoming almost... friends(?) because he needed Magneto after the Decimation. So I can kind of buy that Scott will hold his nose and work with people he hates after the constant genocides of the last few years, which is something Hickman leaned into in HoX/PoX. Remember: All of the past decades of continuity have happened in the span of 14 years to Scott. Seeing your species go from millions, on track to inherit the Earth, to a scant handful multiple times in under a few decades? That’s going to radicalize a person, which is why I liked militant Scott and thought it was a natural direction for him to go. But then my first comic with Scott was Morrison New X-Men and Whedon Astounding X-Men, and I’ve always seen Scott as more morally flexible when the situation calls for it than the Boy Scout of the Claremont era.

    Yeah it’s kind of a tough situation right? Hickman addressed it head on with Emma even saying “who cares? we’ll just bring you back” and Ooro basically going “I refuse to lie down and die, I’ll always fight to my last breath”. That was the explanation, but I gotta think there’s some kind of negative side effect to the resurrection process coming.
    Last edited by Vordan; 04-22-2021 at 09:27 PM.
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  4. #454
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Well Scott still seems to hate Sinister. That's a good thing at least. As for Apocalypse, I'm not sure Scott has voiced his current opinion on him. It's probably not deemed as important to the narrative.

    That being said, I feel like the small nuances of characters would probably benefit this run more in the long run. The more differing opinions voiced in the books the more likely readers would probably feel that the characters they love are still the characters they love.



    This made me feel better after having read X-force, lol.
    Yeah, character nuance is what I'm missing.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  5. #455
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    This is kind of the “wall” when it comes to the Hickman era. You’re either willing to accept that off panel all of the X-Men embraced Xavier’s new dream, or you aren’t. If you can’t accept it, nothing about this era will appeal to you. I accepted it because I think what Hickman was doing with HoX/PoX was fascinating and that the X-Men needed a new direction that wasn’t just constant genocides and Claremont nostalgia.

    That said Scott isn’t just meekly following orders. Xavier and Magneto basically tell him “kill Orchis if you need to in order to stop Nimrod” but Scott insists on going non lethal for that mission. He’s stood up to the Quiet Council a few times such as when they discussed imprisoning Havok. He blatantly disobeyed Xavier’s rule about no more X-Men, and is back to fighting for a world that hates and fears him, not just Krakoa. So he’s much more defiant than he was in his youth even as he clearly is supporting this new dream of a united mutantdom.

    The thing is, Magneto was also a villain for a long time who tried to murder Scott and his friends. Yet he and Scott ended up becoming almost... friends(?) because he needed Magneto after the Decimation. So I can kind of buy that Scott will hold his nose and work with people he hates after the constant genocides of the last few years, which is something Hickman leaned into in HoX/PoX. Remember: All of the past decades of continuity have happened in the span of 14 years to Scott. Seeing your species go from millions, on track to inherit the Earth, to a scant handful multiple times in under a few decades? That’s going to radicalize a person, which is why I liked militant Scott and thought it was a natural direction for him to go. But then my first comic with Scott was Morrison New X-Men and Whedon Astounding X-Men, and I’ve always seen Scott as more morally flexible when the situation calls for it than the Boy Scout of the Claremont era.

    Yeah it’s kind of a tough situation right? Hickman addressed it head on with Emma even saying “who cares? we’ll just bring you back” and Ooro basically going “I refuse to lie down and die, I’ll always fight to my last breath”. That was the explanation, but I gotta think there’s some kind of negative side effect to the resurrection process coming.
    I think you've articulated my problem, I can't accept it.

    Magneto had been written more as an anti-villain for a time before Decimation, I don't think that situation really compares with the current one especially since, again, we don't understand why Scott just moved on to this new dream and is working with/under Sinister and Apocalypse. I'm glad Scott decided the X-Men are still needed, but I wish that had happened so much sooner.

    That one-shot was a complete waste, they all were.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  6. #456
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Well Scott still seems to hate Sinister. That's a good thing at least. As for Apocalypse, I'm not sure Scott has voiced his current opinion on him. It's probably not deemed as important to the narrative.
    l.
    Scott and Apocalypse were sipping cocktails in X-Force with Jean. That dynamic will never make sense to me given the history, especially with Kid Cable around as a constant reminder of how Apocalypse screwed up Scott's family

  7. #457
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    Dumb anime on Netflix. Way of the House husband.

    I kinda wish I can get a version of this for Scott.
    Le Suck it, Dolphin!

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    SCOTT SUMMERS AND EMMA FROST DESERVED BETTER.

  8. #458
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Scott and Apocalypse were sipping cocktails in X-Force with Jean. That dynamic will never make sense to me given the history, especially with Kid Cable around as a constant reminder of how Apocalypse screwed up Scott's family
    Yeah, things like that will prevent me from enjoying this era, there's just no getting around it for me.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  9. #459
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJpyro View Post
    Dumb anime on Netflix. Way of the House husband.

    I kinda wish I can get a version of this for Scott.
    I know of it, and that would be funny.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  10. #460
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Scott and Apocalypse were sipping cocktails in X-Force with Jean. That dynamic will never make sense to me given the history, especially with Kid Cable around as a constant reminder of how Apocalypse screwed up Scott's family
    I feel like there wasn't that much thought put into that scene. That was an odd choice, but probably more of a poor decision from the artist for a laugh than anything, so I'll give some leeway there for the decision. That being said, a lot of things seem to be happening just for fun, and that feels like a source of some of the criticisms in the first place.
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
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  11. #461
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    I feel like there wasn't that much thought put into that scene. That was an odd choice, but probably more of a poor decision from the artist for a laugh than anything, so I'll give some leeway there for the decision. That being said, a lot of things seem to be happening just for fun, and that feels like a source of some of the criticisms in the first place.
    We need some quality control.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  12. #462

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    Whether people believe it or not is one thing but cyclops said exactly how he feels on panel.

    cyxlops00.jpg
    cyclops01.jpg

    I would argue cyclops is far more in character now than he was when he embraced the phoenix force after watching what he felt he did to the love of his life. Or maybe just as desperate for mutant survival or rather in this case thriving.

    Or maybe it's just easy not to be petty when you've been dead.
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  13. #463
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    We need some quality control.
    It definitely needs to be more refined.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Whether people believe it or not is one thing but cyclops said exactly how he feels on panel.

    cyxlops00.jpg
    cyclops01.jpg

    I would argue cyclops is far more in character now than he was when he embraced the phoenix force after watching what he felt he did to the love of his life. Or maybe just as desperate for mutant survival or rather in this case thriving.

    Or maybe it's just easy not to be petty when you've been dead.
    True, but his explanation for his current view is that it's all about his family, which also feels like foreshadowing his loss of it. That view aside, it's the rest of the concepts of Krakoa that don't align with the character and have yet to be explained. It probably hasn't been deemed important to the story. What is important, is that Cyclops is family oriented, and that his family is his anchor for Xavier's current vision.

    The problem with this to me, is that we didn't see him reach this conclusion. We are being told what we need to know as it pertains to the story and for some that seems fine. For me, it rings hollow. All things considered, nothing has really happened with Cyclops either. He's still just the family guy with little else since the beginning of this current era and it makes me wish we would have seen his family develop along with his resolve for Krakoa. A character stating their current view essentially to the "reader" or Polaris in this case, can only do so much.
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 04-23-2021 at 08:05 PM.
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
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  14. #464
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Whether people believe it or not is one thing but cyclops said exactly how he feels on panel.

    cyxlops00.jpg
    cyclops01.jpg

    I would argue cyclops is far more in character now than he was when he embraced the phoenix force after watching what he felt he did to the love of his life. Or maybe just as desperate for mutant survival or rather in this case thriving.

    Or maybe it's just easy not to be petty when you've been dead.
    That doesn't work for me. This dialogue in a vacuum is great, but this conversation had no follow through, no payoff. He is not in character as far as I'm concerned, because this status quo might have been established in terms of world-building but not in regards to the characters.

    Writers can make characters say anything, Rosenberg's Uncanny had Scott acting like he'd messed up so bad during the Utopia era, like an aged up Tyke. That was a joke.

    These characters are supposed to be heroes, right and wrong. Dire circumstances are one thing, but I can't accept all of the X-Men working with Sinister, Apocalypse, the Hellfire Club, etc. Everyone needs to stop pointing to the problem Moira presents because they don't know that, as far as I can tell Xavier and Magneto just shared their plans for Krakoa (which is its own can of worms), the Quiet Council, the Resurrection Protocols, and everyone just went along. What the H?

    Pettiness isn't even close to describing this situation, it's such a flippant way to look at things.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  15. #465

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That doesn't work for me. This dialogue in a vacuum is great, but this conversation had no follow through, no payoff. He is not in character as far as I'm concerned, because this status quo might have been established in terms of world-building but not in regards to the characters.

    Writers can make characters say anything, Rosenberg's Uncanny had Scott acting like he'd messed up so bad during the Utopia era, like an aged up Tyke. That was a joke.

    These characters are supposed to be heroes, right and wrong. Dire circumstances are one thing, but I can't accept all of the X-Men working with Sinister, Apocalypse, the Hellfire Club, etc. Everyone needs to stop pointing to the problem Moira presents because they don't know that, as far as I can tell Xavier and Magneto just shared their plans for Krakoa (which is its own can of worms), the Quiet Council, the Resurrection Protocols, and everyone just went along. What the H?

    Pettiness isn't even close to describing this situation, it's such a flippant way to look at things.
    Then a character can never satisfy you unless you write them because that is what these writers are paid for to write a character through their lense. You can agree or disagree but to say it's not enough or isn't there is trying to dictate what you feel should happen and no one likes to be told how to do their job.

    And who defines what a hero is? Perspective on a situation imo would inform if you feel someone is a hero. Anyone calling themselves hero or justice in imo is in a sense delusional. Because how does anyone know what they are doing is the overall good.
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