Scott Summers aka Cyclops Appreciation 2021

[TheDeadSpace]

Then a character can never satisfy you unless you write them because that is what these writers are paid for to write a character through their lense. You can agree or disagree but to say it's not enough or isn't there is trying to dictate what you feel should happen and no one likes to be told how to do their job.

And who defines what a hero is? Perspective on a situation imo would inform if you feel someone is a hero. Anyone calling themselves hero or justice in imo is in a sense delusional. Because how does anyone know what they are doing is the overall good.

I mean, writers should have freedom to go where they want with a story, but in many cases it's better to show instead of just telling the reader. This was an instance of telling the reader what they needed to know about Cyclops for this era. We the readers, didn't see him reach this conclusion, and instead are filled in by his dialogue through Polaris and later Corsair. It definitely saves time for what's considered more important for the story, but doesn't do much for flushing the characters out. There's no problem with being fine with the info dump, but it seems obvious that some fans might prefer character work over the story. I think it's just a matter of preference.

As for the hero thing, it has a basic definition. Challenging the idea is one thing, but there are quite a few literary archetypes that comics tend to follow. Also, considering the new team, it's obvious which one Cyclops views as the correct definition.

[Hizashi]

It definitely needs to be more refined.



True, but his explanation for his current view is that it's all about his family, which also feels like foreshadowing his loss of it. That view aside, it's the rest of the concepts of Krakoa that don't align with the character and have yet to be explained. It probably hasn't been deemed important to the story. What is important, is that Cyclops is family oriented, and that his family is his anchor for Xavier's current vision.

The problem with this to me, is that we didn't see him reach this conclusion. We are being told what we need to know as it pertains to the story and for some that seems fine. For me, it rings hollow. All things considered, nothing has really happened with Cyclops either. He's still just the family guy with little else since the beginning of this current era and it makes me wish we would have seen his family develop along with his resolve for Krakoa. A character stating their current view essentially to the "reader" or Polaris in this case, can only do so much.

This is a fantastic articulation of the issue.

[Hizashi]

Then a character can never satisfy you unless you write them because that is what these writers are paid for to write a character through their lense. You can agree or disagree but to say it's not enough or isn't there is trying to dictate what you feel should happen and no one likes to be told how to do their job.

And who defines what a hero is? Perspective on a situation imo would inform if you feel someone is a hero. Anyone calling themselves hero or justice in imo is in a sense delusional. Because how does anyone know what they are doing is the overall good.

And editors' jobs is (maybe was) to take their vision and incorporate it into continuity. Narrative is a collaboration, these characters have histories and that needs to be respected.

Heroes have a clear definition, I don't subscribe to moral relativism. There is good and bad, and one can tell which is which.

And yes, there is morally gray and I enjoy seeing it and it has its place, and heroes can dip into it, but that's a separate issue.

[xiyon]

Whether people believe it or not is one thing but cyclops said exactly how he feels on panel.

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I would argue cyclops is far more in character now than he was when he embraced the phoenix force after watching what he felt he did to the love of his life. Or maybe just as desperate for mutant survival or rather in this case thriving.

Or maybe it's just easy not to be petty when you've been dead.

Which would be true if not for, y'know, Phoenix Endsong (and Warsong, in the case of Emma's continued distrust for the Phoenix Force at the beginning of AvX despite Endsong). Endsong was literally the X-Men-- Scott especially-- making peace with the Phoenix Force, with Scott believing Jean's spirit can control it.

Utopia-- and even post-Utopia / Bendis-era-- followed continuity, where writers built up from previous story arcs, whether readers liked the direction or not.

Hickman just rebooted the franchise, but has his cake while he eats it, too. It's very clear-- from issue one of his X-Men run-- that there's a specific story he wants to tell, and he's tailoring characterization to fit that story. Again, it's very likely peeps would be more receptive of Hickman's run if there was actually a transition. However, it's equally likely that Hickman looked at the recent storylines leading up to his and decided Marvel dug its grave waaaay too deep for him to salvage / tell the story he wants to tell, so he began cherry picking continuity.

[maxi_miceli]

Which would be true if not for, y'know, Phoenix Endsong (and Warsong, in the case of Emma's continued distrust for the Phoenix Force at the beginning of AvX despite Endsong). Endsong was literally the X-Men-- Scott especially-- making peace with the Phoenix Force, with Scott believing Jean's spirit can control it.

Utopia-- and even post-Utopia / Bendis-era-- followed continuity, where writers built up from previous story arcs, whether readers liked the direction or not.

Hickman just rebooted the franchise, but has his cake while he eats it, too. It's very clear-- from issue one of his X-Men run-- that there's a specific story he wants to tell, and he's tailoring characterization to fit that story. Again, it's very likely peeps would be more receptive of Hickman's run if there was actually a transition. However, it's equally likely that Hickman looked at the recent storylines leading up to his and decided Marvel dug its grave waaaay too deep for him to salvage / tell the story he wants to tell, so he began cherry picking continuity.

Aren't Endsong and Warsong non-canon by now? I think I remember a lot of it being contradicted over the years (isn't AvX impossible if endsong is canon?)

[Hizashi]

Aren't Endsong and Warsong non-canon by now? I think I remember a lot of it being contradicted over the years (isn't AvX impossible if endsong is canon?)

I thought Scott "hearing" Jean while he was Dark Phoenix was follow-through from Endsong. Maybe you're right, I'm not sure.

[Gray Lensman]

I thought Scott "hearing" Jean while he was Dark Phoenix was follow-through from Endsong. Maybe you're right, I'm not sure.

The Phoenix gets changed so often it really should be called the Retcon Force. Each new appearance contradicts the last one, going all the way back to when the Fantastic Four found that pod at the bottom of the bay.

[Hizashi]

The Phoenix gets changed so often it really should be called the Retcon Force. Each new appearance contradicts the last one, going all the way back to when the Fantastic Four found that pod at the bottom of the bay.

Well, the Retcon Force needs a break.

[Gray Lensman]

Well, the Retcon Force needs a break.

The Farce, and it's power to create new canon every appearance is now the Avenger's problem to deal with. Good riddance.


Now, if the thing had stayed as it was originally intended - merely being Jean's potential and establishing her as the Team Powerhouse, everything would be OK. But once it became a possessing entity it robbed everyone it comes into contact with of their agency in the story. It went from being great to being something that diminishes everything it touches.

[TheDeadSpace]

The Farce, and it's power to create new canon every appearance is now the Avenger's problem to deal with. Good riddance.


Now, if the thing had stayed as it was originally intended - merely being Jean's potential and establishing her as the Team Powerhouse, everything would be OK. But once it became a possessing entity it robber everyone it comes into contact with of their agency in the story. I went from being great to being something that diminishes everything it touches.

True, I don't disagree with any of this at this point.

[Havok83]

Aren't Endsong and Warsong non-canon by now? I think I remember a lot of it being contradicted over the years (isn't AvX impossible if endsong is canon?)

A previous story doesnt become non-canon just bc its been contradicted by later material. Endsong and Warsong are still canon.

Those stories havent been retconned persay, but they have been ignored. A story in the background was that Jean was collecting the Phoenix fragments and would presumably return once she got them whole. We saw her collect the Cuckoos fragments in Fraction's run and Rachel and Korvus in one of the space minis. AVX ignored this. The Phoenix Force was split into 5 additional fragments which became the Phoenix Five. Jean could have returned in that story to collect all the fragments, but once SW and Hope banished the Phoenix, that effectively killed Jean's plotline. Again Endsong and Warsong werent retconned but they never got the proper conclusion to the dangling plot thread they created

[ermac]

I was just reading xiyon's signature:

Never forget, Cyke fans~ https://twitter.com/i/status/1246248602768486402

That's a very well crafter summary of the hypocrisy of Marvel and X-Editorial shaming Cyclops during the 2010s.

I still am more convicted that ever, that Cyclops did nothing wrong. He was a better leader of mutantkind than Xavier or Magneto ever were.

[Arthas]

Then a character can never satisfy you unless you write them because that is what these writers are paid for to write a character through their lense. You can agree or disagree but to say it's not enough or isn't there is trying to dictate what you feel should happen and no one likes to be told how to do their job.

And who defines what a hero is? Perspective on a situation imo would inform if you feel someone is a hero. Anyone calling themselves hero or justice in imo is in a sense delusional. Because how does anyone know what they are doing is the overall good.

It's less a matter of lenses but about a character being at point A but an author suddenly warping the character to point X because it makes it easier for them to tell a story.

Apocolypse infected Scott's son with a techno-virus and forced him to send his son to the future. Sinister has done a whole lot of wacky hi-jinx to the Summers bloodline.

It's not that it is impossible for Scott (or any X-men) to work with them but that work would be in a limited way with constant teeth-grinding unless the Nar and Sinister went through a very big redemption arc or Scott himself went through a massive story arc justifying why he suddenly gets along with them. Magneto for example had gone through a few big arcs justifying why the X-men would work with him occasionally.

Problem is that Hickman likes creating his own spin / world when it comes to comics. He is massively talented at that I fully admit. What he fails at and quite frankly is not interested in, is showing how that new world/spin came about. He's got a brand new world for readers to play with and readers should only shut up and ask no questions on how this world came about.

[Hizashi]

I was just reading xiyon's signature:

Never forget, Cyke fans~ https://twitter.com/i/status/1246248602768486402

That's a very well crafter summary of the hypocrisy of Marvel and X-Editorial shaming Cyclops during the 2010s.

I still am more convicted that ever, that Cyclops did nothing wrong. He was a better leader of mutantkind than Xavier or Magneto ever were.

Truly the arguments against Scott are so weak when compared to this.

[xiyon]

A previous story doesnt become non-canon just bc its been contradicted by later material. Endsong and Warsong are still canon.

Those stories havent been retconned persay, but they have been ignored. A story in the background was that Jean was collecting the Phoenix fragments and would presumably return once she got them whole. We saw her collect the Cuckoos fragments in Fraction's run and Rachel and Korvus in one of the space minis. AVX ignored this. The Phoenix Force was split into 5 additional fragments which became the Phoenix Five. Jean could have returned in that story to collect all the fragments, but once SW and Hope banished the Phoenix, that effectively killed Jean's plotline. Again Endsong and Warsong werent retconned but they never got the proper conclusion to the dangling plot thread they created

Yeah. At the time, I thought AvX would pay all of that off. Certainly, it was a plot line building throughout the X-Books. Scott's faith in the Phoenix since he thinks Jean is controlling it / is the Phoenix Force, which was only solidified at the end of Second Coming; Emma's continued distrust, leading her to almost murdering an unconscious Hope during Fear Itself. The franchise is long-form storytelling and it really felt like it. In hindsight, I should've taken more heed to the fact that it was mostly Avengers writers on the AvX while the only X-Writer was Aaron. Dude's even ignored Avengers: X-Sanction entirely...

I was just reading xiyon's signature:

Never forget, Cyke fans~ https://twitter.com/i/status/1246248602768486402

That's a very well crafter summary of the hypocrisy of Marvel and X-Editorial shaming Cyclops during the 2010s.

I still am more convicted that ever, that Cyclops did nothing wrong. He was a better leader of mutantkind than Xavier or Magneto ever were.

Credit all goes to RedClops123. If nothing else, Cyke's dead carcass literally propped up years of X-Book stories, but not in the way it typically goes. It's kinda a documentation of the X-Office's creative bankruptcy prior to Hickman.

And just to reiterate, my stance against Hickman's run isn't that he's taking the mythos to a whole "new" territory, but that he jumped straight into it. We didn't get to see how or why the X-Men decided to seemingly unanimously fall in line with Chucky and Magz. Instead of a story showing character growth, it seems Hickman just expects us to accept it because the previous runs were just that bad. It feels like he's doing an editor's job or, at the least, there's a specific story he wants to be told and he's using the franchise as mouthpieces.