Dick Grayson: Robin/ Nightwing/ Agent 37 Appreciation 2021

[Dzetoun]

You have to consider Dick’s current situation. This is post Ric now, and Dick is in need of general appeal. They went too far with Ric, that now the reaction is to go the other way. They are trying to sell a sense of general comfort to combat Ric being so rejected. Bringing back the general Nightwing and Batman stuff they threw away, mocked, and tried to convince readers not to like. Dick and Babs has regularly been a go to for general appeal. Blockbuster is textbook Nightwing, Zucco is old school Dick, etc, etc. I understand the logic and necessity of this right now, even if these aren’t my favorite things anymore. As a die hard they have me as a reader, it’s the general audience they need to try and get back. And general audiences don’t necessarily have the same views on these things as us die hards.

I agree. Let’s approach this from Taylor’s hypothetical standpoint. He has been handed a property that has been pretty much driven into the ground. No recriminations, I think a lot of unfortunate things came together, but that’s where we are. What then to do? You could just make a write off of the past and strike out in a completely new direction, but that would be awfully dangerous, especially if all the reports of cutbacks at DC are accurate. The last time they did something like that was with Grayson in 2014. Much as many of us liked that direction, it didn’t work out and DC is reportedly in worse shape now.

So, that means trying to find a solid foundation and building up methodically. What foundation? The rock solid one is pixie boots and Haly’s Circus, but that’s not going to happen without rebooting the entire universe. New Teen Titans? They are actually doing that, but it it is and always has been another book. Well, that leaves the three B’s - Bruce, Babs, and Bludhaven. We may be tired of that music, but at least the orchestra knows how to play it. Let’s see if Taylor can conduct some new themes.

[Ascended]

You have to consider Dick’s current situation. This is post Ric now, and Dick is in need of general appeal. They went too far with Ric, that now the reaction is to go the other way. They are trying to sell a sense of general comfort to combat Ric being so rejected. Bringing back the general Nightwing and Batman stuff they threw away, mocked, and tried to convince readers not to like. Dick and Babs has regularly been a go to for general appeal. Blockbuster is textbook Nightwing, Zucco is old school Dick, etc, etc. I understand the logic and necessity of this right now, even if these aren’t my favorite things anymore. As a die hard they have me as a reader, it’s the general audience they need to try and get back. And general audiences don’t necessarily have the same views on these things as us die hards.

I agree. Let’s approach this from Taylor’s hypothetical standpoint.

I'm in agreement with both of you.

A brand new, fresh direction is a risk at the moment, given the sales Ric eventually fell to and the shape of DC in general. It's big risk big reward, but DC doesn't seem terribly interested in taking big risks right now, especially with IP's that have been on thin ice like Nightwing (which is DC's own doing, but regardless of blame that's the current situation).

A safe, familiar launch using all the classic toys of the Dixon era might not be the exciting, new stuff many of us want to see, but it's unlikely to really upset us or drive us off the book either. It'll be solid and enjoyable even if it's not unique or the full-blown update many of us think is necessary for Dick to truly elevate to the A-list. The Grayson version of comfort food, as it were.

But it's possible that this isn't going to be Taylor's entire run or DC's whole plan. This could very well be just them rebuilding the foundation, and once things are feeling more stable we'll see Dick build things into something new, using the familiar foundation to jump from.

Or maybe Dick will still have his head shoved up Bruce's ass and will be doing nothing but more Bat-lite stuff. We won't know until the issues come out and we get an idea of where the story is ultimately headed. But it's way, way too early to say either way.

[Wingin' It]

I agree. Let’s approach this from Taylor’s hypothetical standpoint. He has been handed a property that has been pretty much driven into the ground. No recriminations, I think a lot of unfortunate things came together, but that’s where we are. What then to do? You could just make a write off of the past and strike out in a completely new direction, but that would be awfully dangerous, especially if all the reports of cutbacks at DC are accurate. The last time they did something like that was with Grayson in 2014. Much as many of us liked that direction, it didn’t work out and DC is reportedly in worse shape now.

So, that means trying to find a solid foundation and building up methodically. What foundation? The rock solid one is pixie boots and Haly’s Circus, but that’s not going to happen without rebooting the entire universe. New Teen Titans? They are actually doing that, but it it is and always has been another book. Well, that leaves the three B’s - Bruce, Babs, and Bludhaven. We may be tired of that music, but at least the orchestra knows how to play it. Let’s see if Taylor can conduct some new themes.

I agree; A lot of people are being quite negative about a book that hasn't even come out yet! Let's give Taylor and Redondo the benefit of the doubt, they're clearly passionate about the book they're working on. Dick is getting some effort put toward his solo, regardless if it's a direction some on here personally prefer. It's leagues better than what we've had for the past few years.

[Rakiduam]

The books are not gonna solve that. Nightwing is gonna have to transcend print media. It’s the only way, he has to be proven fiscally viable to DC that they will plug him into DCU adventures and crossovers.

So make sure you support
titans S3
Young Justice S4
Arkham Knights and let them know more Nightwing is what you want.

However for now this book seems to be the ground work to what could possibly be a Nightwing spin-off from titans
Dickbabs needs to be finalized, sealed and made official so when the Live action Batgirl movies comes and it will be coming his inclusion is guaranteed in the way Lois Lane will always be in Superman film. I means it when I say it’s all coming together now.

Just to be clear, you are saying that: if I play a bat family game where Dick is, again, just a part of a set, I get depressed weekly with Young Justice stream of pyrrhic victories, and watch Jason Todd's hissy fit in the bat family show formerly known as Titans, I may, some day, have the chance to see Dick as Barabra's boyfrined in a Batgirl movie?

That's...a picture for shure, it goes to show the character is never going to be allowed to move on. None of them will, really.

I am not questioning Taylor good intentions, but not even all the enthusiasm in the world is going to make Dick a draw for general audiences when all they do is keep repeating the same elements that already failed to matter.

[Jay11]

Well, I think saying half the fandom doesn't want them to ever date again might be a bit much, but I've seen no indication from Taylor that they'll be depicting Dick as the "dumb one."

Maybe 49% then😜

But honestly, a large portion of Nightwing fans dislike or are indifferent to DickBabs and most of the general audience is more familiar with Dick Kory through the Teen Titans and TTGo cartoon, the DCAU movies, and live action Titans. Even the Injustice games reference Starfire and Dick's relationship over DickBabs. The Arkham games ,arguably the most successful general audience Batman media outside of movies, has BabsTim! So DickBabs isn't the slam dunk fan favorite DC seems to think it is and I think more people would be less anxious about this run if Babs wasn't co-starring🤷

Honestly, it was after listening to Bruno Redondo's interview posted here last week, I got the impression that Barbara is being portrayed as the one with a good head on her shoulders while Dick is flighty and impulsive. Also, he needs her help solve whatever the big mystery is.

Imagine if Red Hood, or Tim Drake(whatever his codename is these days), or Batman had to call in Barbara to solve his mysteries in his own book because he couldn't handle it on his own. Wouldn't that make them seem much less intelligent and capable, seeing as they are all trained specifically as detectives? Oh, and let's not forget she'll also appear as Batgirl, so apparently Dick can't even fight his own battles in his own book!

I would feel much differently about Barbara's inclusion in the story if it were just her coming in with the occasional assist with tech support or upgrades. Or if see was a guest star appearing to give a fresh perspective on whatever events happen to be transpiring, but no. That's not the case. She is the permanent co-lead and the creative team has implicitly stated that her role in this series is to be the brain/love interest. Two roles DC often assigns her when it comes to Dick Grayson and never, ever, ever has either benefitted him as a character.

So yeah, I'm more skeptical than excited about Taylor's plans for the character. Hope I'm wrong,though😐

[Godlike13]

Babs is a character that Dick’s doesn’t have to play the strait man to. Dick is established enough that his skills aren’t really in question, to the point where he’s abused as a measuring stick, because readers are already generally aware of his skills and what they are suppose to be. But really it’s not Dicks skills the make him stand out, detecting, fighting, flipping they all do this stuff and are good at it. It’s his personality that differentiates him. The Batman-lite, Boy Scout, strait man is the worse take on Dick. Its more important that they bring out his personality then his intelligence. Babs can help them do that, while at the same time be a generally known character they can bounce love drama with. Again it’s not strictly about just what Nightwing fans want anymore. It’s about general appeal and trying to get back some semblance of a general audience.

[Rakiduam]

Babs is a character that Dick’s doesn’t have to play the strait man to. Dick is established enough that his skills aren’t really in question, to the point where he’s abused as a measuring stick, because readers are already generally aware of his skills and what they are suppose to be. But really it’s not Dicks skills the make him stand out, detecting, fighting, flipping they all do this stuff and are good at it. It’s his personality that differentiates him. The Batman-lite, Boy Scout, strait man is the worse take on Dick. Its more important that they bring out his personality then his intelligence. Babs can help them do that, while at the same time be a generally known character they can bounce love drama with. Again it’s not strictly about just what Nightwing fans want anymore. It’s about general appeal and trying to get back some semblance of a general audience.

It never is about what Nightwing fans want. But who needs brains when they have "personality", right?

I'm sure the general audiences will be captivated by these dead horses they keep beating, while they are already very aware of Dick skills, who died of a broken neck after falling in a rock the last time Taylor wrote him.

[Godlike13]

There aren’t enough Nightwing fans anymore. It’s more important that Dick is likable, then it is that he’s the biggest brain in the room. Being the smartest isn’t going to keep Dick relevant any more then it has Tim. Taylor killed him because people are generally aware of him. It was a death even general readers would be able to acknowledge. It’s the same reason he is the one the gets tied to the chair or shot in the head. Readers are aware enough to take notice, but at the same time not so invested that it makes him or what he’s doing unexpendable.
They need to get readers invested in him again. Highlighting what makes him unique. Which the reality is, isn’t his skill set. Cause they all do they stuff. All of them. And they do it as well as the story needs. The key is presenting it in a different or alternative way unique to him. And that is where personality comes in. Otherwise why not just read Batman then.

[Agent Z]

It never is about what Nightwing fans want. But who needs brains when they have "personality", right?

I'm sure the general audiences will be captivated by these dead horses they keep beating, while they are already very aware of Dick skills, who died of a broken neck after falling in a rock the last time Taylor wrote him.

In Taylor's defense, that was an elseworld with an already dumb premise.

[Rakiduam]

There aren’t enough Nightwing fans anymore. It’s more important that Dick is likable, then it is that he’s the biggest brain in the room. Being the smartest isn’t going to keep Dick relevant any more then it has Tim. Taylor killed him because people are generally aware of him. It was a death even general readers would be able to acknowledge. It’s the same reason he is the one the gets tied to the chair or shot in the head. Readers are aware enough to take notice, but at the same time not so invested that it makes him or what he’s doing unexpendable.
They need to get readers invested in him again. Highlighting what makes him unique. Which the reality is, isn’t his skill set. Cause they all do they stuff. All of them. And they do it as well as the story needs. The key is presenting it in a different or alternative way unique to him. And that is where personality comes in. Otherwise why not just read Batman then.

The thing is that Dick can be likable and smart, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

Yes all bats have the same set skils that's why they shouldn't be in the same book. The ocacional croosover can work when it needs all hands on deck, like in "Night of Owls", where everyone had something to do and the chance to shine in distinctive ways. Most times they only limit each other and diminish their capacities. In an on-going they become superfluous, they hinder each other developing.

You keep quoting occasions with Dick being victimized like is good thing, as if the a public awareness of Dick in need of rescue was a plus.
"Boy hostage" doesn't need to be smart, because he is likable, it makes no sense when you need to build up a character to be competent, how do you do that when he doesn't have to find his own solutions?

On the other hand, it doesn't matter, I will just forget this thing exist for a while until the next relaunch. It's not for fans anyway.

[Godlike13]

The thing is that Dick can be likable and smart, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

Yes all bats have the same set skils that's why they shouldn't be in the same book. The ocacional croosover can work when it needs all hands on deck, like in "Night of Owls", where everyone had something to do and the chance to shine in distinctive ways. Most times they only limit each other and diminish their capacities. In an on-going they become superfluous, they hinder each other developing.

You keep quoting occasions with Dick being victimized like is good thing, as if the a public awareness of Dick in need of rescue was a plus.
"Boy hostage" doesn't need to be smart, because he is likable, it makes no sense when you need to build up a character to be competent, how do you do that when he doesn't have to find his own solutions?

On the other hand, it doesn't matter, I will just forget this thing exist for a while until the next relaunch. It's not for fans anyway.

Never said he can’t be likable and smart, point is he doesn’t have to be the the the smartest or threatened by another smart character. And while you’re not wrong, these characters do often step on one another’s toes, there are also pairs that can help to highlight other aspects of one anther. Dick was created to do that even.

And I’m not quoting those occasions as good things, I’m simply using them to illustrate a point. They use him as a victim and a measuring stick because he’s established. Readers already generally know who he is and what he is suppose to be be able to do.
They don’t need to pander to remind readers of what they probably already know, look he’s smart like Batman, when really it’s more important that they present what readers know about him in ways they can actually attach to. There are plenty of ways to be competent. It’s not always about what he does, but how he does it.

Finally, it needs to be for everybody. As there aren’t enough fans anymore. They’re casting a wider net. Hit or miss, the logic is sound given the situation.

[HsssH]

I understand the logic behind "lets get back to what works", but maybe there is a reason why every time we go back there it eventually turns into ****.

[Godlike13]

Ya, poor editors who fail to fallow up and keep anything going from one creator to the next. That struggle to manage talent and recruit. Like it or not, but take a look at the most successful times with the Nightwing series. Those “let’s go back to what’s works”, works. Eventually though there just comes a point where they apparently go “let’s blow it up!”. And then hand it to piss poor creators. Except for Grayson. Which was a complete accident. But no Nightwing series ever had that Gail Simone run that builds on what comes before.

[Korath]

I just really don't get why they chose to push the DickBab as THE official couple when the DicKory is so much more iconic - and DC even had Barbare be outright terrible with Dick just before that End of the Universe One Shot in Death Metal... It's kind of hard to be wowed by this pairing and the stuff currently proposed, especially when I can only support so much books with my money...

[Agent Z]

I just really don't get why they chose to push the DickBab as THE official couple when the DicKory is so much more iconic - and DC even had Barbare be outright terrible with Dick just before that End of the Universe One Shot in Death Metal... It's kind of hard to be wowed by this pairing and the stuff currently proposed, especially when I can only support so much books with my money...

DickBabs has enough exposure to be considered iconic itself and has the advantage of being limited to the Bat offices. Dick and Kory also, unfortunately, have a history of being horrible to each other as well because that's just how superhero comics are when it comes to drama.