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  1. #1636
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    All the talk about Raptor makes me wonder if Taylor isn't going to bring that up and kinda connect it all? Dick's parents didn't have a good relationship with each other, both were unfaithful, but stayed married so that Dick could have a "normal family"? I'm sure that someone can write a compelling story about all that, but then you add in Court of Owls and Dick's entire background becomes complex nightmare, no? I mean, Bruce's parents are often shown to have had some contacts with other "important" people, but at the end of the day they still were just some rich couple that were shot in a robbery.
    Higgins talked about this years (a decade?) ago. That it feel important to Dick's origin that his family, like Bruce's, was victim of random violence.

    They weren't targeted, they weren't chosen, just passing by like it could happen to anyone. And he did his best effort to incorporate the entire "Gray son of Gotham" without altering that aspect of the story.

    Right now it feel like edditoria is playing Jenga with the characters, seen how many chunks of the base they can take to put in top before the whole thing comes crashing down.
    Last edited by Rakiduam; 06-13-2021 at 04:53 PM.

  2. #1637
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    The Cobb and Grayson part matters because Cobb's viewpoint is Dick's a Grayson and he should be Talon. Him creating a whole line of family as an expression of revenge is his design, and Dick fighting against that to show that design means nothing to him since his own choice matters more.
    Dick still is a Grayson. Cobb isn’t even a major beat, but a relatively new retcon they also later introduced into his history. What’s more he was a peon, and wouldn't be anymore aware then John was. Cobb was one of many Talons they recruited through Haley’s. His designs while dramatic are ultimately inconsequential. He didn’t pick Dick, and Dick wasn’t picked because of his genetics. But because of his prowess and the Courts connection to the circus. Cobb isn't part of the Court, but one of their slaves they use to carry out their whims.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-13-2021 at 05:32 PM.

  3. #1638
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    All the talk about Raptor makes me wonder if Taylor isn't going to bring that up and kinda connect it all? Dick's parents didn't have a good relationship with each other, both were unfaithful, but stayed married so that Dick could have a "normal family"? I'm sure that someone can write a compelling story about all that, but then you add in Court of Owls and Dick's entire background becomes complex nightmare, no? I mean, Bruce's parents are often shown to have had some contacts with other "important" people, but at the end of the day they still were just some rich couple that were shot in a robbery.
    I think a big part of it is writers/DC trying to expand on Dick's circus origins, the stuff that belongs to him and him alone that isn't given to him by Bruce or the Titans. I think DC has tried to make the early years of Dick's life more important to his narrative, so the IP can stand on its own two feet more. And I approve of the general idea, if not the way they've executed it.

    Adding onto that, there's a dark side to "carny folk" that entertainment likes to zero in on, and audiences love the deep shadows lurking behind the neon lights. So you get stuff like the Owls using Haly's to groom potential new Talons (which is actually pretty f*cking brilliant from a villain standpoint, you gotta admit) and you've got Dick's grandfather there to embody that narrative foil. You get Dick's parents not being perfect, wonderful people who never did nothing wrong, now there's maybe some stress in the marriage, some mistakes being made....though I'm pretty sure that's mostly just been hinted at and not said for sure and true from reliable narrators.

    I don't think it convolutes the back story too much. At least not in concept. Maybe some of the specific stories and details need to be clarified or ignored, but I don't think the basic idea bogs down the origin. Definitely ignore the idea that Dick's some semi-prophesied figure among the Owls, just say he was a candidate with potential (especially given his family history) and nothing more. Boil it all down to "Dick grew up in a circus surrounded by a family that loved him, but the circus had some dark secrets too. Dick's parents die when Zucco shakes down Haly for protection money, and Dick is taken in by Bruce. And hence Robin was born."

    I figure this is equivalent to fleshing out and developing Krypton. And the fact that Doomsday was engineered on Krypton, or that Lara nearly married Zod, or the clone wars, or Rao-ism, none of that really impacts the basic status quo unless the story specifically calls for it. It only matters when you want it to.

    Looking at the preview, its going to be real funny (in a bad way) when Dick will be saved by either Tim or Babs or both. Hey, maybe even some kid will help him. And sure, when you reveal a new villain you don't really want to have hero beat him on the first try. But problem is that Dick hasn't really done anything in previous 3 issues and if this trend continues then long lost sister won't even be the reason why I'll drop this run.
    Oh we are most definitely due a big ass win. Dick getting punked the last few issues...okay, sure, ha ha. That's minor. That's fun (a mean kinda fun, but still). But us wingnuts have been waiting a long time to see Nightwing get his due, and it's time to pay up. I don't normally believe in fan entitlement, but since 2006 Nightwing has been on DC's sh*t list, and we are owed.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  4. #1639
    Mighty Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Higgins talked about this years (a decade?) ago. That it feel important to Dick's origin that his family, like Bruce's, was victim of random violence.

    They weren't targeted, they weren't chosen, just passing by like it could happen to anyone. And he did his best effort to incorporate the entire "Gray son of Gotham" without altering that aspect of the story.

    Right now it feel like edditoria is playing Jenga with the characters, seen how many chunks of the base they can take to put in top before the whole thing comes crashing down.
    I remember a quote like that. Seems par for the course for Higgins. And I agree. I hope it won't be changed, no matter what might happen next Issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think a big part of it is writers/DC trying to expand on Dick's circus origins, the stuff that belongs to him and him alone that isn't given to him by Bruce or the Titans. I think DC has tried to make the early years of Dick's life more important to his narrative, so the IP can stand on its own two feet more. And I approve of the general idea, if not the way they've executed it.

    Adding onto that, there's a dark side to "carny folk" that entertainment likes to zero in on, and audiences love the deep shadows lurking behind the neon lights. So you get stuff like the Owls using Haly's to groom potential new Talons (which is actually pretty f*cking brilliant from a villain standpoint, you gotta admit) and you've got Dick's grandfather there to embody that narrative foil. You get Dick's parents not being perfect, wonderful people who never did nothing wrong, now there's maybe some stress in the marriage, some mistakes being made....though I'm pretty sure that's mostly just been hinted at and not said for sure and true from reliable narrators.

    I don't think it convolutes the back story too much. At least not in concept. Maybe some of the specific stories and details need to be clarified or ignored, but I don't think the basic idea bogs down the origin. Definitely ignore the idea that Dick's some semi-prophesied figure among the Owls, just say he was a candidate with potential (especially given his family history) and nothing more. Boil it all down to "Dick grew up in a circus surrounded by a family that loved him, but the circus had some dark secrets too. Dick's parents die when Zucco shakes down Haly for protection money, and Dick is taken in by Bruce. And hence Robin was born."

    I figure this is equivalent to fleshing out and developing Krypton. And the fact that Doomsday was engineered on Krypton, or that Lara nearly married Zod, or the clone wars, or Rao-ism, none of that really impacts the basic status quo unless the story specifically calls for it. It only matters when you want it to.
    That's a good point. I think it works for Raptor. And when the Titans show introduced Clayton Williams. Fleshing out the circus was pretty much the premise for Dick's OGN.

    But I don't see Dick's connection to the Owls treated as an integral part of his IP when all we have is proof of the opposite. That connection didn't matter one bit when the CoO appeared in the New52 inspired Cartoons. I guess Gotham Knights and the next Issue of The Adventures Continue will reveal whether Dick's connection to them is integral by now or not.

    Imo, the problem with the CoO is that they aren't truly Dick's. Sure, Cobb is, but the Owls are connected to Bruce. They are old money families in Gotham, they pray to Barbartos, and they have their origin in Batman even if the Nightwing title featured Cobb prominently at the time.

  5. #1640
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    next Issue of The Adventures Continue will reveal whether Dick's connection to them is integral by now or not
    What is happening there? They are introducing CoO to animated continuity?

  6. #1641
    Mighty Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    What is happening there? They are introducing CoO to animated continuity?
    Yep. The CoO appeared in Issue #1 of season two. Came out this month. And Dick is shown fighting Talon (Cobb?) on the cover of #2.

  7. #1642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    Yep. The CoO appeared in Issue #1 of season two. Came out this month. And Dick is shown fighting Talon (Cobb?) on the cover of #2.
    If we have them face off again in Gotham Knight I think we can call put him at the top of Dick’s rogue list

    Cobb
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  8. #1643
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Dick still is a Grayson. Cobb isn’t even a major beat, but a relatively new retcon they also later introduced into his history. What’s more he was a peon, and wouldn't be anymore aware then John was. Cobb was one of many Talons they recruited through Haley’s. His designs hat doewhile dramatic are ultimately inconsequential. He didn’t pick Dick, and Dick wasn’t picked because of his genetics. But because of his prowess and the Courts connection to the circus. Cobb isn't part of the Court, but one of their slaves they use to carry out their whims.
    Cobb's status in the Court is irrelevant. I was talking about him and only him personally wanting to use his Grayson descendants as a revenge tool (or whatever it was, I don't remember everything, but basically he wants them to side with him) so he asked them to be trained by the Circus. The story of what Cobb wants as a blood relation vs what Dick wants as his own person. A story that won't work if he's just a random kid from the Circus with no relation to him.

    That was the topic. Why Cobb having a blood relation to Dick is important is specifically for that story.

    The Court just goes on using their own methods and goal. Them wanting Dick to be a Talon just happened to be aligned.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 06-14-2021 at 09:16 AM.

  9. #1644

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    just gonna leave this here and bail, lol
    E590C37D-87E9-4834-862D-60F3AE3A1EEB.jpg

  10. #1645
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    just gonna leave this here and bail, lol
    E590C37D-87E9-4834-862D-60F3AE3A1EEB.jpg
    I remember this version of Dick getting stuck on babysitting duty while talking with Kori on the phone and her mentioning a thong .

  11. #1646
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    SPOILERS for issue 81:

    So, while the last page didn't have much impact since it got spoiled, we don't have much information about Melinda other than she has a lot of dirty on her. So she might be plain the long con and faking it, but i don't belive that's the case.

    The rest of the issue was good, Heartless is a enhanced human but not a great fighter, looks like he isn't much of a threat by himself.
    The part with the boats was good, but i wish we had seem people too instead of just boats to give more humanity to the scene. The names of the boats were kinda silly, but i didn't mind.

    The reveal it self at the end isn't something that i wanted for the character, but i'm willing to see how is going to play out.

  12. #1647
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    I didn't like that Dick ended up getting knocked out second time. Sure, he needed to get his mask removed so that we could get to the reveal, but its not like Dick wasn't going to meet her anyway due to his plans for the city. Not a big deal, but I feel like overall story could have been constructed in a better way.

    I have no idea how it actually works, but if Melinda's FBI file is redacted a lot, does it imply that she is an FBI informant?

  13. #1648
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Okay, just throwing this out there, but it may be possible for Taylor to be serious about Melinda without undermining John Grayson or the Grayson marriage. We don’t have a key piece of information: Dick and Melinda’s relative ages. If Melinda is slightly older, which is perfectly possible given her extensive FBI file and successful career in local politics, then John may have been involved with her mother before he married, or perhaps even met, Mary. For all we know, it might also have been before Melinda’s mother married Zucco.

    A much greater plot problem is that Dick evidently didn’t know anything about Melinda until now. Council President is a very important local position and one you only come to after being in local politics for a while. Her name would have been in the newspaper and on TV and social media pretty regularly. It beggars the imagination that a former Bludhaven police officer and property owner would not have run across the name and perked up his ears. I would have found it more believable if he had said he had been aware of her but just figured Zucco was a common enough Italian name and never thought there was a connection

  14. #1649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    Okay, just throwing this out there, but it may be possible for Taylor to be serious about Melinda without undermining John Grayson or the Grayson marriage. We don’t have a key piece of information: Dick and Melinda’s relative ages. If Melinda is slightly older, which is perfectly possible given her extensive FBI file and successful career in local politics, then John may have been involved with her mother before he married, or perhaps even met, Mary. For all we know, it might also have been before Melinda’s mother married Zucco.

    A much greater plot problem is that Dick evidently didn’t know anything about Melinda until now. Council President is a very important local position and one you only come to after being in local politics for a while. Her name would have been in the newspaper and on TV and social media pretty regularly. It beggars the imagination that a former Bludhaven police officer and property owner would not have run across the name and perked up his ears. I would have found it more believable if he had said he had been aware of her but just figured Zucco was a common enough Italian name and never thought there was a connection
    I dunno, I would guess less than 1% of Americans know who their local Council members are. I certainly don't know mine. Dick's been busy superheroing and spycraft and other stuff, so it's not unbelievable to me that he doesn't know.

    My nit for this issue would be that there's no way that mass of people on the pier could go from one end of it to the other in the timeframe of Dick telling Tim "Get the kids off the pier. Get them --". It was a confusing sequence.

  15. #1650
    Amazing Member Murrocko's Avatar
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    Maaaaaann, this ending had two tropes I'm not a fan of. 1st being the hero easily getting KO'd and unmasked (And yeah I get they set it up with the whole concussion thing, but still), is there no security system on the suit for that, Oracle couldn't have remotely tasered Melinda or something? The 2nd of course being the long lost sister. I know the best course of action here is to wait and see how the story unfolds, but I'm already kind of annoyed that this is the direction we're seemingly going in as of right now.

    So not only is Dick connected to a secret society of bird fanatics with zombie ninja security via his great grandpa, but also maybe his dad wasn't really John Grayson, but really some super villain, also evil grandparents or something that assisted in brainwashing, to potentially now having a sister with ties to the man who killed his parents... Assumingly due to some sort jealous rage in Melinda not being his daughter or is it just going to be coincidence he murdered the man that had a secret kid with his 1st wife?

    I don't know, I get expanding on someone's history, but I really preferred back when Dick was just a victim to violence in Gotham and didn't have every other new character/story be a blast from from his past.

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