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  1. #1711
    Mighty Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Barbara is a Batperson, is not a big deal that she surprised him. Yeah, he got robbed, he wasn't pay attention while serving food to people in the streets.

    He had ONE line about Tim being a good Robin. And his family were messing with him in a playfull manner about him getting robbed, thats normal among friends and family.

    And in the last issue, he got a concussion and still had the upper hand on Heartless until he cheated and run away.
    It's a big deal considering how she did it. Geared up and alerted Nightwing not even able to handle in civvies Barbara. It wasn't some surprise attack Dick didn't expect. He knew there was an intruder in his home.

    Then she gets to crap on his security system just to hit the point home how incompetent Dick is, but I guess that can now all conveniently be pushed to the side because Dick is suddenly still suffering from his past bullet-through-the-head trauma that played no rule in his skillset in the past 2+ years.

    Dick gets his wallet stolen because equally as conveniently the normal citizens of Blüdhaven are poor innocent angels now, which makes Dick leave his wallet on the counter as any sensible human would. Or maybe he is so proud of himself for throwing a pizza party, that he forgets about the wallet. Just normal Dick Grayson things.
    Plus the wallet was one whole mcguffin for like two Issues, so Dick didn't have to show any detective skills he might or might not have under Taylor.

    Best Robin, whatever. It's dumb but par for the course. And I guess we have a batchat now. The important stuff.

    Heartless was ok. Expected considering he's a new villain but Badou detailed what happened afterward well enough. That's not Nightwing planning. Considering how often Dick has been involved with Zucco he shouldn't even be that emotional and, heck, why are Barbara and he talking while he breaks in anyway. For a told you so moment? Yeah, if Tim and Babs didn't want Dick to leave maybe they should have held the Melinda information back.

    When Taylor wrote "Dick is humble" he seems to have mistaken that for the narrative has to humble Dick every Issue.

  2. #1712
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    It's a big deal considering how she did it. Geared up and alerted Nightwing not even able to handle in civvies Barbara. It wasn't some surprise attack Dick didn't expect. He knew there was an intruder in his home.

    Then she gets to crap on his security system just to hit the point home how incompetent Dick is, but I guess that can now all conveniently be pushed to the side because Dick is suddenly still suffering from his past bullet-through-the-head trauma that played no rule in his skillset in the past 2+ years.

    Dick gets his wallet stolen because equally as conveniently the normal citizens of Blüdhaven are poor innocent angels now, which makes Dick leave his wallet on the counter as any sensible human would. Or maybe he is so proud of himself for throwing a pizza party, that he forgets about the wallet. Just normal Dick Grayson things.
    Plus the wallet was one whole mcguffin for like two Issues, so Dick didn't have to show any detective skills he might or might not have under Taylor.

    Best Robin, whatever. It's dumb but par for the course. And I guess we have a batchat now. The important stuff.

    Heartless was ok. Expected considering he's a new villain but Badou detailed what happened afterward well enough. That's not Nightwing planning. Considering how often Dick has been involved with Zucco he shouldn't even be that emotional and, heck, why are Barbara and he talking while he breaks in anyway. For a told you so moment? Yeah, if Tim and Babs didn't want Dick to leave maybe they should have held the Melinda information back.

    When Taylor wrote "Dick is humble" he seems to have mistaken that for the narrative has to humble Dick every Issue.
    Interesting that people like Tim Seeley's run when he basically did the same thing.

    First issue: Dick got beat into the ground by Raptor.

    Second issue: In a mission given by the Owls, one of the daughters of Kobra suprised him and Raptor had to save him from being attacked from behind. Mind you, he was in a mission, in total alert. Oh, and Raptor said "That's why Batman has a new Robin every year."

    Thrid issue: Barbara goes after and sneak behind them, Dick didn't notice her but Raptor did.

    Forth issue: Got saved by Raptor AGAIN and then revealed that Raptor was using him all along.

    In the end, he defeated Raptor in a great and satisfying way. He'll defeat Heartless and go out on top in the end here as well.
    Last edited by Drako; 06-16-2021 at 12:32 PM.

  3. #1713
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Interesting that people like Tim Seeley's run when he basically did the same thing.

    First issue: Dick got beat into the ground by Raptor.

    Second issue: In a mission given by the Owls, one of the daughters of Kobra suprised him and Raptor had to save him from being attacked from behind. Mind you, he was in a mission, in total alert. Oh, and Raptor said "That's why Batman has a new Robin every year."

    Thrid issue: Barbara goes after and sneak behind them, Dick didn't notice her but Raptor did.
    Oh people here did protest about those too.
    People like Seeley's run here, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have anything to dislike. One of the problem is his Dick is too trusting, or his power level scales depending on who he's facing or how Seeley wants the story goes, getting beaten up by Raptor and a new nobody villain like Mr. Nice, getting turned into a Monster during a crossover...
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 06-16-2021 at 01:18 PM.

  4. #1714
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    The Heartless thing was the least annoying part I think. It's a new villain and I get wanting to build them up. That is very standard. It is the other stuff that makes Dick feel a bit more incompetent that annoyed me. Avi even mentioned things in their post that I forgot, like Babs mocking his security system. Like I said, I get it is being played for laughs some, but it feels unbalanced so far. I wonder if Dick failing to enter buildings undetected will be some running theme/gag now. Things like that, getting captured and unmasked so easily, and the lack of any real detective work while getting everything explained to him bothers me more. Probably doesn't help that the plot is moving incredibly slow too where these things stand out more maybe.

    But Drako is right that Seeley's Nightwing run it had Dick getting upstaged too. I remember posting about that as well at the time, but that first arc was only 4 issues and moved fast. We were getting two issues a month as well. There was even a part in issue #5, or somewhere in that Monster crossover written by Orlando, where Batwoman talked down to Dick which felt ridiculous given Dick had way more experience than her.

    That first arc was a bit weird overall in how Seeley was told to use the Owls but I don't think he really wanted to. So that first arc was kind of used to have Raptor kill the Parliament of Owls and was this awkward transition between the Grayson series and being told to move the character to Bludhaven. While I have some issues with Raptor at least he was written like a smug asshole and he felt like he had some character to him. Taylor is missing that kind of charm. There are times where I actually like how Taylor writes Dick. Like the cop scene with him and Babs last issue and other small moments like that. It's the other stuff that feels a lot weaker and is dragging the series down, imo.

    Seeley was also coming off the Grayson run so I trusted him a lot more. I don't trust Taylor the same way. Even early on in Grayson they had Dick getting upstaged a little too, but Dick also had more strong moments as well showing his abilities despite being throw in into a completely foreign situation, and also showed him being more lighthearted which was a breath of fresh air coming off the New 52 Nightwing run. Plus Grayson was throwing all these crazy things at the reader (whales with robot legs!), and then Midnighter is a character with some standing as being very strong. I remember Midnighter fans being upset that Dick could even stand up to him. So it is a bit different when the opponent is an established character. Then it all turned with Grayson #5 (written by King I think) and was great in how it showed Dick "defeating" both Midnighter and even Helena by outlasting them in the desert by sheer will. It was such a good way to have him defeat someone far stronger without him even throwing a punch. It completely sold me on the Grayson series. If Taylor can do something half that good then maybe I'd be less critical, but I dunno.

  5. #1715
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Untouchable characters aren’t sustainable. You want your hero to be competent, but not so much that there’s no challenge cause they are inherently just so awesome. There needs to be a balance otherwise there’s no story. There was an arc with Seeley and Raptor. He created a challenge for his hero to work towards overcoming. Raptor challenged Dick’s character not just physically but conceptually. But through that challenge readers got to experience a journey of Nightwing earning the victory.
    That isn’t the same thing as jobbing, or undermining ones lead just for sake of undermining them with no redemption or narrative goal in mind.

    The Untouchable arc I think demonstrates when this becomes an issue. It had Dick fall into the same pitfall over and over with out Dick ever really learning from those defeats. It took another’s random interference to change anything, leaving Dick with no real progression or line of development from the encounters.

    I will say this about Heartless, and even Melina. I don’t think Taylor is doing the best job of showing them as threats. They have been made to be threats because of Dick’s hubris and recklessness more then anything they are actually doing.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-17-2021 at 03:32 AM.

  6. #1716
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    The time for him to shine in this arc and save the day will come, but Taylor is setting things up. Next issue is focused on detective work, he will find the truth behind Melinda's story, something that Barbara could do with her tech skills.

    I understand that some people aren't behind the plot or the writer yet, i just think they're a little nitpick in some parts. Seeley did the same things and in the end his run was great.

    I didn't want Dick to have a lost sister, i still don't, but i'll just wait to see how everything will turn out. I don't have a allegiance to Tom Taylor, i'm going to call him out on things i don't like.

  7. #1717
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    I still can’t get to the store early enough to grab a copy at my local store, and on my second trip I snag the last copy

  8. #1718
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    The time for him to shine in this arc and save the day will come, but Taylor is setting things up. Next issue is focused on detective work, he will find the truth behind Melinda's story, something that Barbara could do with her tech skills.

    I understand that some people aren't behind the plot or the writer yet, i just think they're a little nitpick in some parts. Seeley did the same things and in the end his run was great.

    I didn't want Dick to have a lost sister, i still don't, but i'll just wait to see how everything will turn out. I don't have a allegiance to Tom Taylor, i'm going to call him out on things i don't like.
    See? that's a problem to me, I have no interes in Barbara using her tech skills I want Dick to do it, the guy doesn't has to be a genius haker but he should be self reliant, but Barbara is there basically hindering any progress Dick can do to be better.

    The challenge should be in the antagonist not in the incompetence of the hero.

  9. #1719
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    See? that's a problem to me, I have no interes in Barbara using her tech skills I want Dick to do it, the guy doesn't has to be a genius haker but he should be self reliant, but Barbara is there basically hindering any progress Dick can do to be better.

    The challenge should be in the antagonist not in the incompetence of the hero.
    She is doing the same thing in basically all the bat books, to me is not a big deal. Everyone is going to her for information again nowadays.

  10. #1720
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    Ok, since we still have to wait a month until the next issue, why don't we share some favorite moments of the character? Like Grayson #5, that is in the top 10 of the greatest books with him.

    One of my favorites issues of Nightwing ever is issue #19 of Dixon's run. Takes place during the Cataclysm and it's just Dick saving people trapped in Gotham. I absolutely love the part where he saves the kid and his mom. After that he just get up and keep saving more people.


  11. #1721
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    She is doing the same thing in basically all the bat books, to me is not a big deal. Everyone is going to her for information again nowadays.
    The issue is Dick has been shown to have good tech skills. He was able to hack into JL systems. He isn't suppose to be reckless after the long Ric arc. People don't want to see him look like he always weak in one area. Especially with the Titans he should have gain more tech skills. He wouldn't be on the same level has Babs.

    I don't hate Babs in this. I hope things aren't going he can't do tech stuff at all again.I'm wondering if he was able to hack into JL systems in one storyline. How good should he tech skills be? I do think he should be slow and not has fast. Still able to get the job done but not in the same speed has Babs or Tim.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 06-16-2021 at 05:21 PM.

  12. #1722
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    She is doing the same thing in basically all the bat books, to me is not a big deal. Everyone is going to her for information again nowadays.
    Funny enough I don't think anyone is going to belibe Batman can't do his own haking, unlike Nightwing.

  13. #1723
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I want Dick to be able to not always need help. He has many ways of getting info with Babs

    https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-bludha...r-than-gotham/

    What do you guys think about this ?
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 06-16-2021 at 06:12 PM.

  14. #1724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    See? that's a problem to me, I have no interes in Barbara using her tech skills I want Dick to do it, the guy doesn't has to be a genius haker but he should be self reliant, but Barbara is there basically hindering any progress Dick can do to be better.

    The challenge should be in the antagonist not in the incompetence of the hero.
    I don’t see why having help is being seen as weakness. It’s that he can’t we know he can manage on his own if he needs too. But he’s older now and knows it’s better to have some help and backup.


  15. #1725
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Not saying he can't have help but the issue is what they choice to have him being weak in. And another is the fact it's only the Batfam that he asked for help not the expanse other heroes he knows like the Titans. They have often weaken Dick for plot reasons for others around him. Babs is in many times has shown to be babying him. That's also a issue. There is a place that needs to be done. I don't mind her taking care when he was hurt or just helping if he is busy with other things. But due to how long he has been doing hero work. He is cocky but isn't in the same why Jason or Damian is. So I don't get why he would underestimate heartless. He generally treats many of the villains in Bludhaven seriously.


    I wouldn't mind if something like Dick was way too busy with Heartless, the new mayor and the kids to do the tech work and other things. Which makes sense why Babs is here.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 06-16-2021 at 07:50 PM.

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