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  1. #3151
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Are you guys seriously enjoying Nightwing right now? Is no one else concerned about Dick being OOC and fannon pandering? Please give me a reason to continue to support his character because I’m at a point where DC has seriously just said “F you” to him and left him to die. DickxBabs is once again forced down our throats. Why can’t dick be single and grow up a little before doing anything serious in the relationship department. Whatever happened to his friendships with Wally, Roy ad Donna? Why is are his friends either kids or Bruce/babs. Why did Taylor give his parents a tragic backstory. What is going on with Nightwing? Are we seriously ok with this lol

    I’m sorry if I’m being too passionate but Nightwing used to be my favorite character and I feel like don’t know every know who this character is anymore. Whatever happened to the badass who didn’t rush into things and planned things out meticulously and was considered Deathstroke’s arch nemesis.

    If Tom Taylor wanted to write Batgirl and batfam fannon, why not just do that with the webcomic or go to batgirl solo. Nightwing has fallen from greatness gah.

    I’m sorry lol I just wanna know if anyone feels the same? I don’t just wanna talk about dick’s relationships but that the only interesting thing about him now and even then I’m so done with reducing him down to just his two ships and how sexy he looks.
    This particular issue? No. This run? Yes, very much. Its the best he's been in years. Honestly, the run has not been too focused on how good looking he is or on his relationship with Babs. Kind of makes me think you are not actually reading it. I have to know, what Nightwing run were you reading when he was your favorite character?

  2. #3152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    This particular issue? No. This run? Yes, very much. Its the best he's been in years. Honestly, the run has not been too focused on how good looking he is or on his relationship with Babs. Kind of makes me think you are not actually reading it. I have to know, what Nightwing run were you reading when he was your favorite character?
    Tomasi Nightwing
    Snyder Black Mirror
    Higgins Nightwing (before the endless crossovers)
    Seeley/King Grayson
    Dixon early 90s Nightwing
    Wolfman NTT

    I have been keeping up and I wouldnít have said what I said if I wasnít. Itís ok to have differing opinions. Nightwing rebirth to me is not that great so far which is why I made the post. I know I was a little aggressive so I do apologize. But this Nightwing solo is probably in the bottom three in my opinion. Dick just feels like a shell of his former self. And a lot of his decisions make zero sense. He is acting like a side character in his own solo and that started before Taylor and is being emphasized more by Taylor.

    Itís been very focused on him and babs and not only that, it feels like Iím reading tumblr fanfic Iím not gonna lie lol art is gray but itís not enough to save bad writing. I guess Iím tired of beating around the bush when it comes to his character. Itís just frustrating to see him being done so dirty.

  3. #3153
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Tomasi Nightwing
    Snyder Black Mirror
    Higgins Nightwing (before the endless crossovers)
    Seeley/King Grayson
    Dixon early 90s Nightwing
    Wolfman NTT

    I have been keeping up and I wouldnít have said what I said if I wasnít. Itís ok to have differing opinions. Nightwing rebirth to me is not that great so far which is why I made the post. I know I was a little aggressive so I do apologize. But this Nightwing solo is probably in the bottom three in my opinion. Dick just feels like a shell of his former self. And a lot of his decisions make zero sense. He is acting like a side character in his own solo and that started before Taylor and is being emphasized more by Taylor.

    Itís been very focused on him and babs and not only that, it feels like Iím reading tumblr fanfic Iím not gonna lie lol art is gray but itís not enough to save bad writing. I guess Iím tired of beating around the bush when it comes to his character. Itís just frustrating to see him being done so dirty.
    Babs has been a character and yes they have started a relationship. But an element of a story is not the same thing as the focus. This is the first issue that really focused on her. TBH he everything so far has been in character for the Grayson. I would agree that both Grayson and his time as Batman were superior runs. But I guess different opions, other than Dixon I find this run FAR better and in character than all the other solo Nightwing runs. Higgins was far from good. I can see how some may find Seeleys to be good but I was not a fan of it other than a coupe villains (Deathwing and Raptor). Other than Taylors run, I would agree rebirth Nightwing has been underwhelming.

  4. #3154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Babs has been a character and yes they have started a relationship. But an element of a story is not the same thing as the focus. This is the first issue that really focused on her. TBH he everything so far has been in character for the Grayson. I would agree that both Grayson and his time as Batman were superior runs. But I guess different opions, other than Dixon I find this run FAR better and in character than all the other solo Nightwing runs. Higgins was far from good. I can see how some may find Seeleys to be good but I was not a fan of it other than a coupe villains (Deathwing and Raptor). Other than Taylors run, I would agree rebirth Nightwing has been underwhelming.
    Yes, I see. The opinion difference most likely comes from me wanting Dick to be more independent from the Batfam rather than being with Batfam. As much as I enjoyed Nightwing Rebirth at first, it got stale the minute Seeley forced his own characters instead of continuing what he started with Grayson. The Ric storyline honestly wasnt that bad of an idea, it was just executed poorly. It gave us a love interest that was interesting and going somewhere, but that got kicked out of existence with Taylor who is kinda undoing a lot of Dick's development in my opinion. I think Taylor is a fan panderer which is ok for a title like Batman where the character and world is solid and impenetrable. But it doesnt work for a character like Nightwing who has never been allowed to have solid mythos development. Anytime Dick is able to grow, they reel him back in with the Batfam using either Babs or Bruce.

    Dick has significant friendships with Wally, Roy, Kory and Donna. However, their impact on Dick has been completely destroyed and the only side characters that have any clout in his solos are always batfam (again, mainly Babs). So that's why i feel the way i do because it feels like DC just doenst want to let Nightwing be free. He needs his own established and impenetrable character development, side characters, rogues' gallery and love interest BEFORE you include fannon in your writing. So its not that i dont see what Taylor is doing, i can see why many batfam fans like it. But it's not the direction Nightwing needs to take right now. Nightwing needs a good 5-10 years old solid development before you incorporate fanon. Wally West was able to be known as THE FLASH after 30 years of dvelopment (and still is despite Barry being the one pushed). And then DC completely nixed him. Even John Stewart was able to get out of Hal's shadow and become known as THE Green Lantern. Nightwing never really had or has the chance to be that great on his own and outside batmans shadow. Nightwing hasn't truly done anything iconic since NTT. His solo is propped up by loyal fans (which I am amongst, so no hate there).

    Nightwing has great potential but is never allowed to reach any of it. They have pushed his relationship with his own parents to the background in favor of Bruce/Alfred despite them being a major part of why Dick became a vigilante in the first place. I dont think any Nightwing Rebirth writer has actually either accomplished or is near accomplishing pushing Nightwing into legendary status. The only way that will happen is for DC to give Nightwing the batman treatment and start treating the character like he has his own editorial. But he doesn't. Nightwing needs to develop outside batfam. Dick shouldn't have to be batman to be written properly. Everything Dick does as Batman he can do as Nightwing. If DC wants Dick to be permanently a part of the Batfam apart of the side characters to Batman, they need to cancel his solo. What's the point of a solo when it always turns into a Batfam team up book?

    Im sorry for the rant. None of the negativity is directed at you! Its more directed at DC/batfam editorial.

  5. #3155
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Yes, I see. The opinion difference most likely comes from me wanting Dick to be more independent from the Batfam rather than being with Batfam. As much as I enjoyed Nightwing Rebirth at first, it got stale the minute Seeley forced his own characters instead of continuing what he started with Grayson. The Ric storyline honestly wasnt that bad of an idea, it was just executed poorly. It gave us a love interest that was interesting and going somewhere, but that got kicked out of existence with Taylor who is kinda undoing a lot of Dick's development in my opinion. I think Taylor is a fan panderer which is ok for a title like Batman where the character and world is solid and impenetrable. But it doesnt work for a character like Nightwing who has never been allowed to have solid mythos development. Anytime Dick is able to grow, they reel him back in with the Batfam using either Babs or Bruce.

    Dick has significant friendships with Wally, Roy, Kory and Donna. However, their impact on Dick has been completely destroyed and the only side characters that have any clout in his solos are always batfam (again, mainly Babs). So that's why i feel the way i do because it feels like DC just doenst want to let Nightwing be free. He needs his own established and impenetrable character development, side characters, rogues' gallery and love interest BEFORE you include fannon in your writing. So its not that i dont see what Taylor is doing, i can see why many batfam fans like it. But it's not the direction Nightwing needs to take right now. Nightwing needs a good 5-10 years old solid development before you incorporate fanon. Wally West was able to be known as THE FLASH after 30 years of dvelopment (and still is despite Barry being the one pushed). And then DC completely nixed him. Even John Stewart was able to get out of Hal's shadow and become known as THE Green Lantern. Nightwing never really had or has the chance to be that great on his own and outside batmans shadow. Nightwing hasn't truly done anything iconic since NTT. His solo is propped up by loyal fans (which I am amongst, so no hate there).

    Nightwing has great potential but is never allowed to reach any of it. They have pushed his relationship with his own parents to the background in favor of Bruce/Alfred despite them being a major part of why Dick became a vigilante in the first place. I dont think any Nightwing Rebirth writer has actually either accomplished or is near accomplishing pushing Nightwing into legendary status. The only way that will happen is for DC to give Nightwing the batman treatment and start treating the character like he has his own editorial. But he doesn't. Nightwing needs to develop outside batfam. Dick shouldn't have to be batman to be written properly. Everything Dick does as Batman he can do as Nightwing. If DC wants Dick to be permanently a part of the Batfam apart of the side characters to Batman, they need to cancel his solo. What's the point of a solo when it always turns into a Batfam team up book?

    Im sorry for the rant. None of the negativity is directed at you! Its more directed at DC/batfam editorial.
    Has long has the Bateditors have control over him. I want a nice Crossover event with the Titans but Bateditors only want the Batfam. That's how much they care for Dick's other relationships. In a sense that's why I don't want him in a relationship with Babs because that can easily make it more pinned down and have him no longer be a Titan since the Titans have a on and off. Him moving back to Gotham. That's why I do want him to have his own editor.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 10-19-2021 at 05:23 PM.

  6. #3156
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Tomasi Nightwing
    Snyder Black Mirror
    Higgins Nightwing (before the endless crossovers)
    Seeley/King Grayson
    Dixon early 90s Nightwing
    Wolfman NTT

    I have been keeping up and I wouldnít have said what I said if I wasnít. Itís ok to have differing opinions. Nightwing rebirth to me is not that great so far which is why I made the post. I know I was a little aggressive so I do apologize. But this Nightwing solo is probably in the bottom three in my opinion. Dick just feels like a shell of his former self. And a lot of his decisions make zero sense. He is acting like a side character in his own solo and that started before Taylor and is being emphasized more by Taylor.

    Itís been very focused on him and babs and not only that, it feels like Iím reading tumblr fanfic Iím not gonna lie lol art is gray but itís not enough to save bad writing. I guess Iím tired of beating around the bush when it comes to his character. Itís just frustrating to see him being done so dirty.
    It's interesting - I haven't read a lot of NTT, so that might be where it's coming from, but in those Tomasi/Seeley/King/Higgins runs you mention I don't recognise "the badass who didnít rush into things and planned things out meticulously" - because those books, as well as Morrison, really hit the beat of "Dick Grayson prefers to work without a net". He'd take precautions sure, like oxygenating his blood in Black Mirror, but being reluctant to rush in and working every angle in advance doesn't seem like how the character's been for decades at this point!


    Can't deny there's a whiff of.... if not "fan-fiction", then certainly "fan-pandering" to Taylor's writing though. But there's a thin line between that being obnoxious and a book being excited to tell you how great it's lead is, and to my eyes Taylor's stayed the right side so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I want a nice Crossover event with the Titans but Bateditors only want the Batfam.
    Remember when Christopher Priest wanted Seeley's run to tie into Lazarus Contract? I always wondered whether it was editorial fiefdoms that put a stop to it - but given A) The high quality of Priest's run, and B) The very low quality of Lazarus Contract as arrived on shelves, I can't decide whether we missed out on the classic Nightwing/Deathstroke story we've talking about the character needing, or whether Seeley dodged a creative bullet.
    Last edited by Claude; 10-19-2021 at 05:28 PM.

  7. #3157

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Has long has the Bateditors have control over him. I want a nice Crossover event with the Titans but Bateditors only want the Batfam. That's how much they care for Dick's other relationships. In a sense that's why I don't want him in a relationship with Babs because that can easily make it more pinned down and have him no longer be a Titan since the Titans have a on and off. Him moving back to Gotham. That's why I do want him to have his own editor.
    Since the late 80s. Nightwing became a big character when Marv created him as part of the NTT editorial (he was actually VERY popular and thats when lots of people started to say he could become the Spiderman of DC Comics with the announcement of the Solo). Bat editorial took him back and pretty much retconned everything that happened in NTT except for a few things. Dick was best with Titans because it allowed to him to get out of Batfam's shadow and do something on his own with his own friends whom he chose to be by his side. And as i said, im completely 100% over Dick and relationships. He needs to be single for a couple years before I can't take anymore love interests seriously. If Dick ends up with Babs permanently, its a slap in the face to Kory. If he ends up with Kory, it will be forced and a slap in the face to Babs. He needs another love interest to eclipse both Babs and Kory. Babs and Kory never stuck for a reason and THATS OK. Dick needs a relationship similar to Clark/Lois or Barry/Iris where they become Synonymous with Nightwing and ALWAYS be apart of his mythos as THE LOVE of his life in every single cross over.

    You are right about Babs. Babs seems to always emphasize the need for Dick to be grounded or to change his ways. But really Dick NEEDS to fly. Its the whole basis for his character. He needed to be independent and free from restraints. If he dates anyone, it would be a non superpowered person who will be willing to follow him wherever he goes BECAUSE Dick can not stay still. He needs the interaction and adventure. He needs to soar the skies. Babs will not let him do that because Babs is a independent person who believes in being grounded and will never follow a man. Babs is great for Dick to learn more about himself when he is discovering adulthood, but as an adult, I don't see how they stay together. Dick needs a love interest to kinda merge with him to become one person, someone who can help him re-create that magic his parents had. And there is nothing wrong with that because that's just how he is. Bat editorial loves having Dick say things and do another. Dick and Kory were great for Dick learning that superpowered people are not as bad as Bruce said and that love is really isnt a bad thing. But it just didn't work out, and that's OK.

    Dick will never be able to grow unless they let him move past everything that is in the past.
    Last edited by MakeNightwingGreatAgain; 10-19-2021 at 05:46 PM.

  8. #3158

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    It's interesting - I haven't read a lot of NTT, so that might be where it's coming from, but in those Tomasi/Seeley/King/Higgins runs you mention I don't recognise "the badass who didnít rush into things and planned things out meticulously" - because those books, as well as Morrison, really hit the beat of "Dick Grayson prefers to work without a net". He'd take precautions sure, like oxygenating his blood in Black Mirror, but being reluctant to rush in and working every angle in advance doesn't seem like how the character's been for decades at this point!


    Can't deny there's a whiff of.... if not "fan-fiction", then certainly "fan-pandering" to Taylor's writing though. But there's a thin line between that being obnoxious and a book being excited to tell you how great it's lead is, and to my eyes Taylor's stayed the right side so far.



    Remember when Christopher Priest wanted Seeley's run to tie into Lazarus Contract? I always wondered whether it was editorial fiefdoms that put a stop to it - but given A) The high quality of Priest's run, and B) The very low quality of Lazarus Contract as arrived on shelves, I can't decide whether we missed out on the classic Nightwing/Deathstroke story we've talking about the character needing, or whether Seeley dodged a creative bullet.
    Yeah, ill be honest, Nightwing hasn't been that calculating, meticulous planner for a long time! Nightwing doest need a net, which is why it's of the utmost importance plan ahead and not hurt yourself. The net is there for precaution, you won't need precaution if you know what you're doing. Nightwing knows what he is doing because he is supposed to be the second greatest detective and top 5 fighter in the DC Universe (yes i know Dick is no longer like this, but this is what he is supposed to be). He never did do anything without knowing exactly what he was doing beforehand. This is directly influence from his time spent with his parents where they practiced and did everything perfectly because of it. They didn't need a net because they were that polished. That's kinda how i view it the whole net thing. We don't really get to see this Nightwing anymore. We got some glimpse of it in Grayson and Higgins but it has pretty much left the building In Rebirth. Thats why i felt so betrayed by Seeley rebirth run because this guy did some right things with Dick in Grayson and carried none of that over.

    Nightwing, in my opinion, hasn't been truly great since the early 90s. He had some good ideas in N52 but it went nowhere. For Taylor, like I've said before, Nightwing is not a character that needs to be consistently told how great he is. His lack of solid characterization and world building is a huge turnoff to many new readers. Show don't tell is what's needed for Nightwing atm. Taylor's writing would make more sense if we already know who Nightwing was, and he has solid mythos that are consistent in every cross over, but he doesn't. So Taylor can tell us how great his Nightwing run is all he wants. It means nothing when Nightwing as a character can not back it up.

  9. #3159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Yeah. I just hope they take a break from this events on the bat line.

    Funny how i'm excited for the Wonder Woman event, but can not wait for the Bat one to be over.
    I'm not sure what to expect from Williamson. I mean, he had major storylines in The Flash but it didn't feel like constant event-after-event, but he wasn't writing the flagship book of an entire line.

  10. #3160

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    Speaking of Williamson, he's the one who gave us Doom Metal, as in, Dick leading a version of the Justice League and Legion of Doom temporarily, on top of giving us some Titans interactions that we really needed. That has absolutely no bearing on a Batman event, but I feel like he'd at least give Dick some respect.

    Slightly related, but I'm actually interested in Dick's involvement in the Shadows of the Bat and just other Gotham books. If DC is going to force the Batfamily as a concept and specifically force Nightwing into it, I'm happy to see the Batbooks finally putting in some work to actually (re)build some relationships and dynamics. In the coming months, we're going to see Dick interacting with Kate, Helena, Steph, and Cass to varying degrees. That matters a lot more to me than pushing the same old dynamics and relationships we see so often these days, like Dick with Babs, Tim, and Jason.

    I've also made my peace with Nightwing not being allowed to do big things. It's a fine book that other people seem to like, and I get good art of it usually so it's cool. When so much other stuff at DC is trying new things with their characters, there's no real point in getting upset about the Nightwing book imo.
    Last edited by Grayson - The Dark Heir; 10-19-2021 at 06:12 PM.

  11. #3161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayson - The Dark Heir View Post
    Speaking of Williamson, he's the one who gave us Doom Metal, as in, Dick leading a version of the Justice League and Legion of Doom temporarily, on top of giving us some Titans interactions that we really needed. That has absolutely no bearing on a Batman event, but I feel like he'd at least give Dick some respect.

    Slightly related, but I'm actually interested in Dick's involvement in the Shadows of the Bat and just other Gotham books. If DC is going to force the Batfamily as a concept and specifically force Nightwing into it, I'm happy to see the Batbooks finally putting in some work to actually (re)build some relationships and dynamics. In the coming months, we're going to see Dick interacting with Kate, Helena, Steph, and Cass to varying degrees. That matters a lot more to me than pushing the same old dynamics and relationships we see so often these days, like Dick with Babs, Tim, and Jason.

    I've also made my peace with Nightwing not being allowed to do big things. It's a fine book that other people seem to like, and I get good art of it usually so it's cool. When so much other stuff at DC is trying new things with their characters, there's no real point in getting upset about the Nightwing book imo.
    At least it might make the Batfamily feel less like lipservice like they have been in the past few years.

  12. #3162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayson - The Dark Heir View Post
    Speaking of Williamson, he's the one who gave us Doom Metal, as in, Dick leading a version of the Justice League and Legion of Doom temporarily, on top of giving us some Titans interactions that we really needed. That has absolutely no bearing on a Batman event, but I feel like he'd at least give Dick some respect.

    Slightly related, but I'm actually interested in Dick's involvement in the Shadows of the Bat and just other Gotham books. If DC is going to force the Batfamily as a concept and specifically force Nightwing into it, I'm happy to see the Batbooks finally putting in some work to actually (re)build some relationships and dynamics. In the coming months, we're going to see Dick interacting with Kate, Helena, Steph, and Cass to varying degrees. That matters a lot more to me than pushing the same old dynamics and relationships we see so often these days, like Dick with Babs, Tim, and Jason.

    I've also made my peace with Nightwing not being allowed to do big things. It's a fine book that other people seem to like, and I get good art of it usually so it's cool. When so much other stuff at DC is trying new things with their characters, there's no real point in getting upset about the Nightwing book imo.
    haha I'm so sorry if I came off as off putting. I was just in a mood that I needed to get it out.

    I'm starting to accept the fact that Dick will probably never be great but i just don't want to because i feel like he has so much potential. I feel like if I'm not honest and just say "hey the arts fine and people like it so whatever" then I'm not actually standing up for my own opinion on the character. I feel like I (and many other Nightwing fans) did that for so long which is why things for Nightwing never change and readers are either so loyal that they will stay for the art and fan service or they just leave all together. I think people have valid reasons to be upset and those reasons should be taken into consideration and not just fanned away because there are some people who like it (not aimed at you but in general).

    but I do agree with everything else you said!

  13. #3163
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    There's a Titans book right now. We even have that teacher Nightwing some people said would be a good direction for him. The Titans books have Dick to use, they just don't do anything with him. And anytime someone points that out it's quickly countered with well he has a solo. But Titans should be in his solo too.

    Like it or not this was the direction they needed to take. Ric drove off audiences. They need to return to form to try an signal an audience back. After Ric destroyed and mocked what people liked about Nightwing, they are now responding to that by leaning back into all things Nightwing. And if this didn't work Nightwing would have been in big trouble. As general character sentiment and marketability was shot.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-19-2021 at 07:27 PM.

  14. #3164
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The Titans books have Dick to use, they just don't do anything with him. Titans should be in his solo too.
    Which is exactly why I always thought JUST having TTA as the sole Titans book was a bad idea. We finally got most of the big name Titans together and they're playing second banana to a bunch of barely interesting new kids. Surely there's some superhero stuff and character building that the teachers could be doing while they're not teaching, right? Let's see some of that. Do what's been done before with the Titans books and split them between the teens and the veterans.

  15. #3165
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Has long has the Bateditors have control over him. I want a nice Crossover event with the Titans but Bateditors only want the Batfam. That's how much they care for Dick's other relationships. In a sense that's why I don't want him in a relationship with Babs because that can easily make it more pinned down and have him no longer be a Titan since the Titans have a on and off. Him moving back to Gotham. That's why I do want him to have his own editor.
    Roy is dead , Donna can barley get face time with Diana, Wally has only recently gotten his life together and Kory doesn’t do anything if she is not apart of the titans. With the exception of wally, it’s not as if any of them have books and can host him, their best hope is coming to his book. Dick should drop into the flash at some point I think both their lives are stable enough for it now. The rebirth titans team was a great idea, that DC spat on when the JL shut it down. I feels like it’s hard to recreate this team when the JL could do it again

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