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  1. #3196

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    We can agree regarding the quality of Grayson but unfortunately the sales were not there. In fact it was one the characters lowest selling solo titles, so obviously the general public wanted him to return to the role of Nightwing.

    Batman is DC`s most profitable character. Superman himself does not get the same reverence as Batman. Yes, the role was created so he can operate outside of Batman. Which he does. He makes his own decisions in his own city. However, like the character examples I gave above, he is still a part of the franchise. He will participate and always be considered Batfam. TBH it was not until Bat editorial got him back that Nightwing was even a solo character. He was not created to be DC`s answer to Spider-man. In the Titans run he was more of a analogue to Cyclops. DC has made a lot of bad decisions with the character (Ric, everything after Dixon up until Tomasi) but this run and current status is not one. It may not be one your partial to but he is getting a huge push at the moment. We owe almost all of his success as a solo character to his legacy in the Batfam.
    Im gonna have to disagree with you. We ow his legacy and character success to Marv. Nightwing used to be super popular and a household name back when he was created. NTT was the series and Nightwing was its main character. NTT turned things around for DC Comics all by itself. It wasnt until bat editorial took over that Nightwing began to downgrade in character and erase everything that made him popular to begin with. Nightwing has never been compared to Cyclops. Nightwing was always intended to be the Spider-man of the DC world and never got the chance to reach those heights because Bateditorial. Its just the truth.

    Also, Superman is one of the highest selling characters in existence. Batman gets pushed because he has more content, but Superman sells quite a lot and lots of people known him by name. ITs not just about Batman and i really wish people would stop it with the comparisons. DC really needs some new content because eventually, Batman isnt gonna save it from crumbling. DC hasnt been a top seller in ages and lots of writers are leaving for their own ventures. The comic industry as a whole needs to change. Nightwing's success is outside batfam. Its why Dick Grayson is still synonymous with Robin in Teen Titan stuff. Lots of people dont even know that Dick Grayson = Robin = Nightwing. Its because DC never promotes him as Nightwing outside comics and select content. To Batediotiral, Dick will always be a robin and thats why he is treated that way.

  2. #3197
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    But Nightwing was created to be on his own though? That was the whole point of his character creator and growth. Idk where people get the idea that Nightwing is supposed to be a batman side kick because he isnt. Marv created him because DC had no idea what to do with Dick as Robin so he made Nightwing in order to get Dick out the shadow and do stuff on his own. Thats why people are asking for more Nightwing centered content outside Batfam. Its the reason why he has his own solo in the first place. Its bat editorial who has retconned the mess out of Nightwing and turned him into what he is today, which is just another Robin just grown up. Thats not what Nightwing was created to do. NTT was DC answer to X-Men and Nightwing was supposed to be the answer to Spiderman and yeah well DC dropped the ball on both fronts.

    This is why Nightwing fanbase is never consistent. Its why Nightwing always gets a peak of sales in the beginning and tapers off. Its why Grayson is easily one of the top Dick Grayson books. The General public doesnt want Nightwing sidekick to batman, They want Nightwing solo. Just because the batfam has infiltrated the fandom, doesnt mean that Dick has to revert back to a stage that he successfully was pulle d out from that made him the popular character in the first place. If Marv never created Nightwing, Dick Grayson would not be here today and thats a fact. Its because DC didnt know what to do with him outside of him being Batman's sidekick, remind you of anything recent?
    All of this. Absolutely all of this.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  3. #3198
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    Nightwing was created to be with the Titans. His creation was the result of the Batbooks wanting Robin back and NTT wanting to keep him. There were no solo designs with him then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Nightwing was created to be with the Titans. His creation was the result of the Batbooks wanting Robin back and NTT wanting to keep him. There were no solo designs with him then.
    But dick Grayson was created for Batman, and Nightwing truly blossomed solo away from the titans.

  5. #3200
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    I'd like to pick up a thread of a few posts back.

    It is the widely known dump on Batman for allowing a young boy to go out and fight crime.
    You can give Bruce some crap for that if you want, but at a certain level you have to acknowledge
    that Dick Grayson chose that life. He embraced it, without a second's thought, in fact wanted it more than anything.

    That was how Dick Grayson was written back in the Golden Age. Batman allowed Robin to help take
    Zucco down, but after that he made it abundantly clear there would be no Robin. Dick Grayson would spend
    his time going to school, living a fairly privileged life as his "ward." Batman went off to fight crime solo. But
    that one night, Dick Grayson refused to agree, he snuck out in his Robin's costume. Good thing too, for Batman
    needed his help, with Robin rushing in to save the day. After that, there was never any doubt about their
    partnership. Dick Grayson chose the life. He signed up for it on day one, for the simple reason that in a lot of ways
    his idyllic childhood died when his parents were slaughtered. Do we want to say that was just the way it was in 1940
    for many kids still dealing with the Great Depression? OK. But I don't think that modern Dick Grayson feels any
    differently.

    But the only real place we see the alternative take on Dick Grayson is the awful Titans TV series where Bruce
    Wayne is presented as a maniac, with Dick Grayson never truly wanting to be like Batman. It may be the most anti-Batman
    series ever set in Gotham City. I don't think it reads Dick Grayson very well.

    I think the modern Nightwing character can best be seen as a natural evolution in which Grayson has great pride about being
    Robin. If you had been the original Robin, wouldn't you be proud of that heritage? I sure would be. But over time as an
    adult, just like he chose to be Robin, he in time also chose to become Nightwing. Dick Grayson in one format or another has
    been fighting crime since 1940. You know like all those other DC characters in the universe who have fancy anniversaries.

    The difference is that because part of that period fighting period took place while underage it rubs some people the wrong way.
    A child shouldn't do those kinds of things. I'll agree with you up to a point. But then Dick Grayson is not a normal man. Neither
    is Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, nor any of the other kind of heroes. Most people don't run to where bullets are being fired, or to invade
    a building on fire. But Dick Grayson does.
    Last edited by RobinGA; 10-20-2021 at 04:52 PM.

  6. #3201
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Im gonna have to disagree with you. We ow his legacy and character success to Marv. Nightwing used to be super popular and a household name back when he was created. NTT was the series and Nightwing was its main character. NTT turned things around for DC Comics all by itself. It wasnt until bat editorial took over that Nightwing began to downgrade in character and erase everything that made him popular to begin with. Nightwing has never been compared to Cyclops. Nightwing was always intended to be the Spider-man of the DC world and never got the chance to reach those heights because Bateditorial. Its just the truth.

    Also, Superman is one of the highest selling characters in existence. Batman gets pushed because he has more content, but Superman sells quite a lot and lots of people known him by name. ITs not just about Batman and i really wish people would stop it with the comparisons. DC really needs some new content because eventually, Batman isnt gonna save it from crumbling. DC hasnt been a top seller in ages and lots of writers are leaving for their own ventures. The comic industry as a whole needs to change. Nightwing's success is outside batfam. Its why Dick Grayson is still synonymous with Robin in Teen Titan stuff. Lots of people dont even know that Dick Grayson = Robin = Nightwing. Its because DC never promotes him as Nightwing outside comics and select content. To Batediotiral, Dick will always be a robin and thats why he is treated that way.
    He was not meant to be a solo character when Marv made that change though. He was just meant to remain the leader of the Titans. It is when the Bat Editorial took over that he became a solo character. And yes, he was an analogue for Cyclops during that period. Right down to dating the read head. I am not understanding where you are getting the Spider-man comparison. You may have seen him this way but it was certainly not the general consensus at the time. Especially during his time on the Titans.

    Yes, Superman is one of the highest selling characters of all time. Yet with this current direction Nightwings book is outselling Superman and Action Comics. Do you know why this is possible? Because of his history as a bat character. Your also missing the point of my Superman comparison. Superman, the most iconic super hero of all time plays second fiddle to Batman. Yet many fans want to get rid of the very connection that make Grayson so valuable. Just because you exist as part of a franchise does not mean your a sidekick or not the main character of your book. It just means your part of a larger franchise.

    Again, if the general public wanted to read a Nightwing book without the Batman connection, why didn`t Grayson sell well? It was an amazing book. But quality did not translate to sales. If DC gave him a show or movie, do you know what the hook would be to the general public? That he is a bat character. Like it or not. This is the reality.

  7. #3202
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinGA View Post
    I'd like to pick up a thread of a few posts back.

    It is the widely known dump on Batman for allowing a young boy to go out and fight crime.
    You can give Bruce some crap for that if you want, but at a certain level you have to acknowledge
    that Dick Grayson chose that life. He embraced it, without a second's thought, in fact wanted it more than anything.

    That was how Dick Grayson was written back in the Golden Age. Batman allowed Robin to help take
    Zucco down, but after that he made it abundantly clear there would be no Robin. Dick Grayson would spend
    his time going to school, living a fairly privileged life as his "ward." Batman went off to fight crime solo. But
    that one night, Dick Grayson refused to agree, he snuck out in his Robin's costume. Good thing too, for Batman
    needed his help, with Robin rushing in to save the day. After that, there was never any doubt about their
    partnership. Dick Grayson chose the life. He signed up for it on day one, for the simple reason that in a lot of ways
    his idyllic childhood died when his parents were slaughtered. Do we want to say that was just the way it was in 1940
    for many kids still dealing with the Great Depression? OK. But I don't think that modern Dick Grayson feels any
    differently.

    But the only real place we see the alternative take on Dick Grayson is the awful Titans TV series where Bruce
    Wayne is presented as a maniac, with Dick Grayson never truly wanting to be like Batman. It may be the most anti-Batman
    series ever set in Gotham City. I don't think it reads Dick Grayson very well.

    I think the modern Nightwing character can best be seen as a natural evolution in which Grayson has great pride about being
    Robin. If you had been the original Robin, wouldn't you be proud of that heritage? I sure would be. But over time as an
    adult, just like he chose to be Robin, he in time also chose to become Nightwing. Dick Grayson in one format or another has
    been fighting crime since 1940. You know like all those other DC characters in the universe who have fancy anniversaries.

    The difference is that because part of that period fighting period took place while underage it rubs some people the wrong way.
    A child shouldn't do those kinds of things. I'll agree with you up to a point. But then Dick Grayson is not a normal man. Neither
    is Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, nor any of the other kind of heroes. Most people don't run to where bullets are being fired, or to invade
    a building on fire. But Dick Grayson does.
    I 100% agree. That's honestly what I love so much about the character. Give Jason the child soldier angle. I do not mind exploring Dicks trauma from the position of "it not owning him". But his time as Robin should not be a trauma. If he see`s his parents death as the worst thing to ever happen to him, than being Robin was the best.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 10-20-2021 at 05:49 PM.

  8. #3203

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    Ok so it seems I need to clarify. Nightwing was created to be on his own AWAY from Batman. Whether it's his own solo or leading the Titans, he was meant to be his own hero. It was the whole point of his arc of that time. That is what I meant. Many people have compared Nightwing to Spider-man for years and that was the main comparison. And red heads were the standard because of the printing of that era. It really has nothing to do with characters needing to be redheads. That is why I bought it up. The public does read Nightwing, but they don't make up much of the fandom, which is why Batfam fans leave and complain about arcs like Higgins and Grayson. Nightwing isn't a bat character, he is a Titans character. Robin is a bat character. You can't have both. You either want to erase Dick's history with Titans in favor of Batman. OR you erase Dick's time with batman in favor of the Titans. Either way, the fans, who are not just plain fans of Nightwing clearly, are going to complain. Which is why Nightwing stays getting zero development and always being stuck in shipping wars and batfam content.

    Like it or not, both the start of N52 Higgins and also Grayson brought in a hell of a lot of attention to Nightwing and lots of new fans. Alot of those fans left when Batedtorial started pushing more batfam stuff. That's a fact. For the first time in years, Grayson made Dick Grayson/Nightwing in the spotlight outside of comic circles. But lots of people complained about it although it was gaining traction in the general public. And now we are back to square one with how he was before Marv got his hands on him. Its clear as day that the stories that make Dick popular are not the stories that Batfam fans want to read and y'all complain about it every time Dick branches out and does something on his own.

    This back and forth will never stop until an editor either takes him away and makes him his own IP with his own set of mythos and the like. That's the truth. Quality translates to sales when you actively promote and spend time building up your character. you don't quit after 10 issues. That's a sign of bad planning. Everyone knows this. Grayson could have re-invented Nightwing, but no, you guys (batfam fans) didn't give it a chance. Just like you didn't give Higgins a chance before shoving Batfam crossovers down his throat. Nightwing needs a chance to get good and that may take one writer on a ton of issues rather than the direction it is now.

    people were excited about the TITANS tv show because it had you know the TITANS. It started to go down in ratings when Batfam took over. That's a fact clear as day. So please don't act like Batfam is the only thing that makes Dick Grayson popular. Because its not.

    and with this post, I will end my argument. Clearly there are two opinions and the only person with enough power to end it is DC.

    I also wanna say im sorry if this post comes off mean but its really annoying to see how lots of batfam fans reduce dick down to just being a batfamily character when he clearly isnt.
    Last edited by MakeNightwingGreatAgain; 10-20-2021 at 05:31 PM.

  9. #3204
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Ok so it seems I need to clarify. Nightwing was created to be on his own AWAY from Batman. Whether it's his own solo or leading the Titans, he was meant to be his own hero. It was the whole point of his arc of that time. That is what I meant. Many people have compared Nightwing to Spider-man for years and that was the main comparison. And red heads were the standard because of the printing of that era. It really has nothing to do with characters needing to be redheads. That is why I bought it up. The public does read Nightwing, but they don't make up much of the fandom, which is why Batfam fans leave and complain about arcs like Higgins and Grayson. Nightwing isn't a bat character, he is a Titans character. Robin is a bat character. You can't have both. You either want to erase Dick's history with Titans in favor of Batman. OR you erase Dick's time with batman in favor of the Titans. Either way, the fans, who are not just plain fans of Nightwing clearly, are going to complain. Which is why Nightwing stays getting zero development and always being stuck in shipping wars and batfam content.

    Like it or not, both the start of N52 Higgins and also Grayson brought in a hell of a lot of attention to Nightwing and lots of new fans. Alot of those fans left when Batedtorial started pushing more batfam stuff. That's a fact. For the first time in years, Grayson made Dick Grayson/Nightwing in the spotlight outside of comic circles. But lots of people complained about it although it was gaining traction in the general public. . And now we are back to square one with how he was before Marv got his hands on him. Its clear as day that the stories that make Dick popular are not the stories that Batfam fans want to read and y'all complain about it every time Dick branches out and does something on his own.

    This back and forth will never stop until an editor either takes him away and makes him his own IP with his own set of mythos and the like. That's the truth. Quality translates to sales when you actively promote and spend time building up your character. you don't quit after 10 issues. That's a sign of bad planning. Everyone knows this. Grayson could have re-invented Nightwing, but no, you guys (batfam fans) didn't give it a chance. Just like you didn't give Higgins a chance before shoving Batfam crossovers down his throat. Nightwing needs a chance to get good and that may take one writer on a ton of issues rather than the direction it is now.

    people were excited about the TITANS tv show because it had you know the TITANS. It started to go down in ratings when Batfam took over. That's a fact clear as day. So please don't act like Batfam is the only thing that makes Dick Grayson popular. Because its not.

    and with this post, I will end my argument. Clearly there are two opinions and the only person with enough power to end it is DC.
    Well what your saying has no fact to back it up. Grayson did not bring new fans. That status lost fans. There were less readers. This is a fact. Not an opinion. Where did this status quo gain traction with outside media? I loved Grayson. One of my favorite stories for the character. But it was not something that was ever going to stick around. The Nightwing identity was not created to operate as his own hero. It was created so he could remain the leader of Titans as Bat editorial wanted Robin back. Fact. Nightwing was not a solo hero until he returned to the Batfam. Fact.

    Titans reviews have improved since including more Batfamily. The response to the first season and very first trailer were negative. Dick Grayson is both a Titans character and Bat character. You can have both. They are both a part of his history and both count. Such as how the current run includes both or how Batman is both a Leaguer and Gotham character. Comics wise his current book is successful and DC is giving a push fans of other characters dream of. To go to the next level he needs additional media exposure. Which may happen one day. But if it does, I guarantee it will use his connection to the Batfam as the opening hook.

    I understand why some people may not be a huge fan of the current run or want to see the book approached differently. But to think Nightwing is or should get his own editorial team and be disconnected from the Batfam, the very connection that made him, its delusional. He would not have even been the leader of the Teen Titans without that connection. The very base of his character is the original Boy Wonder.

    Being a part of a franchise is not negative. It is a hook. I am not boiling him down to anything. He is a multi-faceted character. My favorite comic character. But like it or not he is a PART of the Bat family.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 10-20-2021 at 06:15 PM.

  10. #3205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Well what your saying has no fact to back it up. Grayson did not bring new fans. That status lost fans. There were less readers. This is a fact. Not an opinion. Where did this status quo gain traction with outside media? I loved Grayson. One of my favorite stories for the character. But it not something that was ever going to stick around The Nightwing identity was not created to operate as his own hero. It was created so he could remain the leader of Titans as Bat editorial wanted Robin back. Fact. Nightwing was not a solo hero until he returned to the Batfam. Fact.
    Grayson was great, but yes, it didn't not bring new readers at all. And it most certainly didn't not have any presence in the outside midia.
    Current Nightwing run is selling around 50k since Tom Taylor came over (#78 to #85). Grayson by issue 4 was already bellow 50k, by issue 6 was selling 38k.

    All the numbers are in the comichron website, it's pretty easy to find.
    DC: Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Yara Flor, Titans

    Some of my favorite Mangas: One Piece, Slam Dunk, Fullmetal Alchemist, HunterXHunter, Vinland Saga, Monster, Berserk, Vagabond.
    Current reading: Jujutsu Kaisen, Chainsaw Man, Spy X Family, Kaiju Nș8, Blue Lock, Dandadan.

  11. #3206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Grayson was great, but yes, it didn't not bring new readers at all. And it most certainly didn't not have any presence in the outside midia.
    Current Nightwing run is selling around 50k since Tom Taylor came over (#78 to #85). Grayson by issue 4 was already bellow 50k, by issue 6 was selling 38k.

    All the numbers are in the comichron website, it's pretty easy to find.
    Yeah, I am typing really quick on a phone but this is exactly the point I was trying to make. While Grayson was great, it was certainly not setting the market on fire.

  12. #3207
    Extraordinary Member Drako's Avatar
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    Next year he is going to be one of the leads of a triple A video-game, and that's solely because he is part of the Bat Brand. Nowadays video-games and movies are the biggest popularity boost you can ask for, that's why Marvel and DC keep making their characters appear in Fortnite. Hopefully Gotham Knights is a good game and that will be the first exposure of him to a new audience.
    DC: Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Yara Flor, Titans

    Some of my favorite Mangas: One Piece, Slam Dunk, Fullmetal Alchemist, HunterXHunter, Vinland Saga, Monster, Berserk, Vagabond.
    Current reading: Jujutsu Kaisen, Chainsaw Man, Spy X Family, Kaiju Nș8, Blue Lock, Dandadan.

  13. #3208
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Ok so it seems I need to clarify. Nightwing was created to be on his own AWAY from Batman. Whether it's his own solo or leading the Titans, he was meant to be his own hero. It was the whole point of his arc of that time. That is what I meant. Many people have compared Nightwing to Spider-man for years and that was the main comparison. And red heads were the standard because of the printing of that era. It really has nothing to do with characters needing to be redheads. That is why I bought it up. The public does read Nightwing, but they don't make up much of the fandom, which is why Batfam fans leave and complain about arcs like Higgins and Grayson. Nightwing isn't a bat character, he is a Titans character. Robin is a bat character. You can't have both. You either want to erase Dick's history with Titans in favor of Batman. OR you erase Dick's time with batman in favor of the Titans. Either way, the fans, who are not just plain fans of Nightwing clearly, are going to complain. Which is why Nightwing stays getting zero development and always being stuck in shipping wars and batfam content.

    Like it or not, both the start of N52 Higgins and also Grayson brought in a hell of a lot of attention to Nightwing and lots of new fans. Alot of those fans left when Batedtorial started pushing more batfam stuff. That's a fact. For the first time in years, Grayson made Dick Grayson/Nightwing in the spotlight outside of comic circles. But lots of people complained about it although it was gaining traction in the general public. And now we are back to square one with how he was before Marv got his hands on him. Its clear as day that the stories that make Dick popular are not the stories that Batfam fans want to read and y'all complain about it every time Dick branches out and does something on his own.

    This back and forth will never stop until an editor either takes him away and makes him his own IP with his own set of mythos and the like. That's the truth. Quality translates to sales when you actively promote and spend time building up your character. you don't quit after 10 issues. That's a sign of bad planning. Everyone knows this. Grayson could have re-invented Nightwing, but no, you guys (batfam fans) didn't give it a chance. Just like you didn't give Higgins a chance before shoving Batfam crossovers down his throat. Nightwing needs a chance to get good and that may take one writer on a ton of issues rather than the direction it is now.

    people were excited about the TITANS tv show because it had you know the TITANS. It started to go down in ratings when Batfam took over. That's a fact clear as day. So please don't act like Batfam is the only thing that makes Dick Grayson popular. Because its not.

    and with this post, I will end my argument. Clearly there are two opinions and the only person with enough power to end it is DC.

    I also wanna say im sorry if this post comes off mean but its really annoying to see how lots of batfam fans reduce dick down to just being a batfamily character when he clearly isnt.
    Your post count, username tell me your looking for place to vent your frustration.

    I’m not seeing any facts or reasons here just that your upset. Nightwing =Dick Grayson and he will always be dick Grayson no matter what title he is in. The only time we have ever had a significant drop in sales was for the ric saga, Nightwing/Dick fans have stood by him through the new52 rebirth and returned in full force for Taylors run. The numbers can prove it.

    While I agree Titans is a mess it’s due to a lot more then the bat family
    But it can’t be so bad since it was renewed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Next year he is going to be one of the leads of a triple A video-game, and that's solely because he is part of the Bat Brand. Nowadays video-games and movies are the biggest popularity boost you can ask for, that's why Marvel and DC keep making their characters appear in Fortnite. Hopefully Gotham Knights is a good game and that will be the first exposure of him to a new audience.
    This is true Harley wave was ignited by Arkham games

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Well what your saying has no fact to back it up. Grayson did not bring new fans. That status lost fans. There were less readers. This is a fact. Not an opinion. Where did this status quo gain traction with outside media? I loved Grayson. One of my favorite stories for the character. But it was not something that was ever going to stick around.
    Eeh its not quite that simple. Grayson did increase his readership at that time. Grayson launched better then were the previous Nightwing ended at. Which new launches tend to do by nature. But it accomplish that. Whats more often we'll see the results from successful low key runs with what comes next. Which again is complicated because it came with a whole line initiative. But idea is that there was all this positive reaction the the last run, so now readers don't want to miss what comes next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Your post count, username tell me your looking for place to vent your frustration.
    Which this place is for.

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