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  1. #3211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Eeh its not quite that simple. Grayson did increase his readership at that time. Grayson launched better then were the previous Nightwing ended at. Which new launches tend to do by nature. But it accomplish that. Whats more often we'll see the results from successful low key runs with what comes next. Which again is complicated because it came with a whole line initiative. But idea is that there was all this positive reaction the the last run, so now readers don't want to miss what comes next.



    Which this place is for.
    Yes it is a place to vent. But to say Grayson was more successful or that this run is alienating readers while Grayson created new fans when the numbers do not support that is something else.

    Grayson achieved a boost for merely a few issues, like every new #1 does. It dropped quicker than any other Grayson solo volume. There really is no debate, in that the current run/ status has been more successful than Grayson numbers wise. Especially considering it didn’t even have to renumber to achieve it.

    I think it’s pretty low odds we get a comic status even close to Grayson for a good long while, if ever.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 10-20-2021 at 09:16 PM.

  2. #3212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Yes it is a place to vent. But to say Grayson was more successful or that this run is alienating readers while Grayson created new fans when the numbers do not support that is something else.

    Grayson achieved a boost for merely a few issues, like every new #1 does. It dropped quicker than any other Grayson solo volume. There really is no debate, in that the current run/ status has been more successful than Grayson numbers wise. Especially considering it didn’t even have to renumber to achieve it.

    I think it’s pretty low odds we get a comic status even close to Grayson for a good long while, if ever.
    Has it though. This run is still mid 30s. It seems, hard to track now. It looks like it pulled the series out of the Ric hole thought, which don’t get me wrong that alone is a success, that’s not an easy thing to do with no relaunch, but its still pretty much settling around the same level.

    Here’s the thing with a run though. They don’t try to copy it onto an initiative if it didn’t do well, and they don’t then bump half the team on to Batman. Grayson wasn’t ended cause of it’s sales or reception. Like I said Ric did worse yet lasted longer. They are not that motivated by sales or reception when it comes this character. Grayson ended for the same reason Ric lasted so long. It fit for what they were doing else where. It was never intended to last forever though.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-21-2021 at 12:59 AM.

  3. #3213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Has it though. This run is still mid 30s. It seems, hard to track now. It looks like it pulled the series out of the Ric hole thought, which don’t get me wrong that alone is a success, that’s not an easy thing to do with no relaunch, but its still pretty much settling around the same level.

    Here’s the thing with a run though. They don’t try to copy it onto an initiative if it didn’t do well, and they don’t then bump half the team on to Batman. Grayson wasn’t ended cause of it’s sales or reception. Like I said Ric did worse yet lasted longer. They are not that motivated by sales or reception when it comes this character. Grayson ended for the same reason Ric lasted so long. It fit for what they were doing else where. It was never intended to last forever though.
    But it isn`t selling in the mid 30`s. It is selling in the 50k area. And has settled there. As you said it is a bit harder to track now, but the latest approximation of Nightwing issue # 83 is 51,000 on Comichron. This run is 8 issues in and has not dipped. At least the first four issues all went to second print. In fact it is selling better than every book in the DC line other than Batman and Joker. By issue #20 Grayson was selling at 23k. The lowest selling any Dick Grayson lead solo series has been other than Ric (19K, so honestly not too far behind). A 30K stabilized increase without a relaunch is unheard of. So yes, it is selling much better than Grayson.

    They are motivated by sales. I believe Didio had something to do with the Ric initiative. But that's neither here no there. Once DC finds something successful they try to capitalize on it. Yes, they may try something new at some point to reinvigorate the series if its sales look stale. But what they will not do is go back to a status that was proven to not sell well. Also, yes, his return to the role of Nightwing was money motivated. Not only did Nightwing Rebirth and Taylors run (standard Nightwing) sell better than Grayson, but it is also his most marketable role other than Robin.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 10-21-2021 at 09:45 AM.

  4. #3214
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Yes it is a place to vent. But to say Grayson was more successful or that this run is alienating readers while Grayson created new fans when the numbers do not support that is something else.

    Grayson achieved a boost for merely a few issues, like every new #1 does. It dropped quicker than any other Grayson solo volume. There really is no debate, in that the current run/ status has been more successful than Grayson numbers wise. Especially considering it didn’t even have to renumber to achieve it.

    I think it’s pretty low odds we get a comic status even close to Grayson for a good long while, if ever.
    Grayson sold to Dick's fans, this run is selling to batfamily fans.
    Last edited by Rakiduam; 10-21-2021 at 11:31 AM.

  5. #3215
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Do you guys think the reason we haven't gotten a Nightwing movie is because the Public doesn't know him

  6. #3216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Grayson sold to Dick's fans, this run is selling to batfamily fans.
    Na, a lot of Dick fans prefer him as Nightwing which is why Grayson sales were not as high as any new Nightwing volume. If that were the case every Bat family member would sell this high. This is not the case.

    Do I love Grayson? Yes. But to think it is better for the character or even that it is was equally successful as this run has been for the character is obtuse when the numbers are right there. It is a refusal of pure fact. I am a Dick Grayson fan first and foremost. At the end of the day, the bigger the audience, the better for the character. End of story.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 10-21-2021 at 11:42 AM.

  7. #3217
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Do you guys think the reason we haven't gotten a Nightwing movie is because the Public doesn't know him
    I think he is starting to grow in the public eye and we are closer to a movie or cartoon than we have been in years. But the problem is it`s hard to translate the the role of Robin on-screen and when the main characters hook is his journey from the Boy Wonder to his own man, that is kind of a detriment.

  8. #3218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    I think he is starting to grow in the public eye and we are closer to a movie or cartoon than we have been in years. But the problem is it`s hard to translate the the role of Robin on-screen and when the main characters hook is his journey from the Boy Wonder to his own man, that is kind of a detriment.
    Do you think we will ever get that Nightwing animated cartoon

  9. #3219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    But it isn`t selling in the mid 30`s. It is selling in the 50k area. And has settled there. As you said it is a bit harder to track now, but the latest approximation of Nightwing issue # 83 is 51,000 on Comichron. This run is 8 issues in and has not dipped. At least the first four issues all went to second print. In fact it is selling better than every book in the DC line other than Batman and Joker. By issue #20 Grayson was selling at 23k. The lowest selling any Dick Grayson lead solo series has been other than Ric (19K, so honestly not too far behind). A 30K stabilized increase without a relaunch is unheard of. So yes, it is selling much better than Grayson.

    They are motivated by sales. I believe Didio had something to do with the Ric initiative. But that's neither here no there. Once DC finds something successful they try to capitalize on it. Yes, they may try something new at some point to reinvigorate the series if its sales look stale. But what they will not do is go back to a status that was proven to not sell well. Also, yes, his return to the role of Nightwing was money motivated. Not only did Nightwing Rebirth and Taylors run (standard Nightwing) sell better than Grayson, but it is also his most marketable role other than Robin.
    Comichron numbers are rough estimates to say the least now that DC isn’t with Diamonds, showing no deflation. Which is no way. While other charts have its ranked around books like X-Force. Which is in the mid 30s. From under 20k to over 50k with no deflation is beyond unusual.

    DC tried to capitalize on Grayson by using it as inspiration for a new sales initiative (DCYou), and then by taking its creators before they even finished for bigger projects. In line with DC’s management view on the character. Which was to move his success on to others they prioritize higher. He was always going to return to Nightwing, but Grayson’s end was more motivated by their next initiative (Rebirth) and them wanting its creators for other projects. Ric proves sales aren’t the biggest motivating factor with this character. It’s sold lower, yet lasted longer. They cared more about making sure their in house creators had something to work on over the characters sales. Nightwing is obviously his most marketable role other then Robin. But Grayson was never the less a successful relaunch that increased the characters current readership at that time and reposition the character for Nightwing’s inevitable return. Following up on Grayson’s reception. Side by side sales comparisons to measure if a run was successful is misleading as they rarely exists within to same conditions. Grayson didn’t have line wide relaunched to debut it, or even many crossover to stem deflation. But during a time where DC as a whole was doing bad, Grayson was one of the bright spots that mislead them even.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-21-2021 at 12:34 PM.

  10. #3220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Comichron numbers are rough estimates to say the least now that DC isn’t with Diamonds, showing no deflation. Which is no way. While other charts have its ranked around books like X-Force. Which is in the mid 30s. From under 20k to over 50k with no deflation is beyond unusual.

    DC tried to capitalize on Grayson by using it as inspiration for a new sales initiative (DCYou), and then by taking its creators before they even finished for bigger projects. In line with DC’s management view on the character. Which was to move his success on to others they prioritize higher. He was always going to return to Nightwing, but Grayson’s end was more motivated by their next initiative (Rebirth) and them wanting its creators for other projects. Ric proves sales aren’t the biggest motivating factor with this character. It’s sold lower, yet lasted longer. They cared more about making sure their in house creators had something to work on over the characters sales. Nightwing is obviously his most marketable role other then Robin. But Grayson was never the less a successful relaunch that increased the characters current readership at that time and reposition the character for Nightwing’s inevitable return. Following up on Grayson’s reception. Side by side sales comparisons to measure if a run was successful is misleading as they rarely exists within to same conditions. Grayson didn’t have line wide relaunched to debut it, or even many crossover to stem deflation. But during a time where DC as a whole was doing bad, Grayson was one of the bright spots that mislead them even.
    Comichron is a rough estimate, but the most reliable approximation by far. Also, supporting the 50K numbers is the fact the series has went to second printing, has not seen a drop and is receiving a huge push from DC. Grayson`s numbers dropped much earlier than when King and Seeley left. Another factor that goes to support this runs success is the fact that even without hard numbers we can see he is outselling Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash the Justice League. This was definitely not the case prior to Taylor which clearly indicates a sustained sales increase. I would also add the DCYOU initiative was more inspired by Burnside Batgirl then that of Grayson. BTW X-Force issue # 20 sold 53K. What was the last month it was estimated Nightwing sold around X-Force numbers? What site reported this? The last I show was June, which X-Force sold 53 K due to a crossover.

    Even with Ric around, the numbers did not drop too far from where they were, mid 30k to 20K hence why it was able to last so long. Also contributing to this fact was Didio. At the end of the day he returned to the current status quo because it was profitable. It is common knowledge that up until this point editorial interference with Nightwing ran rampant. Multiple writers have stated so.

    Its no coincidence that when DC is trying to push the character this is the status quo they choose. It is the most successful. Do you really think Grayson would have been able to survive as a series for 83 issues? Much of those being terrible? No chance. But the Nightwing book did. Because it as a concept is more successful than Grayson. If people seriously cannot accept that this run NUMBERS wise is more successful than Grayson then its obvious that your not really thinking objectively and utilizing your internal biases regarding the character for the sake of proving a point.

    I LOVE Grayson. I prefer it to Taylors run. But facts do not support it being as successful sales wise. I understand as a concept it had a shelf life. While the concept of Nightwing is the more profitable and marketable status quo. Hence why we keep returning to it.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 10-21-2021 at 01:53 PM.

  11. #3221
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Do you think we will ever get that Nightwing animated cartoon
    I do. And I honestly think we could see one in the next couple years as well as a movie. Warner Bros seems to want to build a Bat-Family franchise.

  12. #3222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Na, a lot of Dick fans prefer him as Nightwing which is why Grayson sales were not as high as any new Nightwing volume. If that were the case every Bat family member would sell this high. This is not the case.
    Not all the books about bat families members turn into a bat family books, this Nightwing's run it's a batfamily book, that's why Barbra fans are getting it, Tim's fans are getting it and Batgirl fans are getting it.

    It's familiar, unambitious and standard, something for everyone to like, because they have already liked some version before. The lowest common denominator possible.

    Do you guys think the reason we haven't gotten a Nightwing movie is because the Public doesn't know him
    It's because there's no material, why make a Batman-little movie, when you can make a Batman movie?
    Last edited by Rakiduam; 10-21-2021 at 02:08 PM.

  13. #3223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Not all the books about bat families members turn into a bat family books, this Nightwing's run it's a batfamily book, that's why Barbra fans are getting it, Tim's fans are getting it and Batgirl fans are getting it.

    It's familiar, unambitious and standard, something for everyone to like, because they have already liked some version before. The lowest common denominator possible.
    Well yes, Tim does not have a book. The Batgirls book will have multiple characters and still will not sell as well as Nightwing is. Including Bat-Family books does not inherently make it strictly a Batfam book. The book remains focused on Dick and his story. It may include Bat characters and he may participate in a crossover once per year but he is still the focus. These are his family members and it makes sense they would associate. Barbara is a side character and until this crossover was not even active in the field. The rest cameo. Just like the Titans or Superman. Did Tim helping in that one issue really detract from the story for you?

    Regardless, I want the character to be successful. This run is doing that. The more eyes the better.

    Also wrong, theres a ton of material. Hence why we are fans. The orginal Robin all grown up is the hook of the character. There is no escaping that. Sounds like you`ll always just consider the character Bat-Lite with that mentality.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 10-21-2021 at 02:17 PM.

  14. #3224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Comichron is a rough estimate, but the most reliable approximation by far. Also, supporting the 50K numbers is the fact the series has went to second printing, has not seen a drop and is receiving a huge push from DC. Grayson`s numbers dropped much earlier than when King and Seeley leaving. Another factor that goes to support this runs success is the fact that even without hard numbers we can see he is outselling Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash the Justice League. This was definitely not the case prior to Taylor which clearly indicates a sustained sales increase. I would also add the DCYOU initiative was more inspired by Burnside Batgirl then that of Grayson.

    Even with Ric around, the numbers did not drop too far from where they were, mid 30k to 20K hence why it was able to last so long. Also contributing to this fact was Didio. At the end of the day he returned to the current status quo because it was profitable. It is common knowledge that up until this point editorial interference with Nightwing ran rampant. Multiple writers have stated so.

    Its no coincidence that when DC is trying to push the character this is the status quo they choose. It is the most successful. Do you really think Grayson would have been able to survive as a series for 83 issues? Much of those being terrible? No chance. But the Nightwing book did. Because it as a concept is more successful than Grayson. If people seriously cannot accept that this run NUMBERS wise is more successful than Grayson then its obvious that your not really thinking objectively and utilizing your internal biases regarding the character for the sake of proving a point.

    I LOVE Grayson. I prefer it to Taylors run. But facts do not support it being as successful sales wise. I understand as a concept it had a shelf life. While the concept of Nightwing is the more profitable and marketable status quo. Hence why we keep returning to it.
    Actually the multiple printing doesn't support the 50K numbers, as what the multiple printings mean is that DC's wasn't producing enough Nightwing as its prior orders were low. Comichron approximations are no longer that reliable as they no longer have access to DC sales data. Its not that there isn't deflation, its that Comichron can't track it. The book isn't seeing a push so big that orders more then doubled with no deflation. As lovely as that would be its too unrealistic. That doesn't mean this run isn't a success, the book seen an increase, i don't doubt that, but over 50k with no deflation something else. And Grayson alongside Burnside was toted as part of DCYou's inspiration.

    The numbers were at they're floor before Ric, and just fell further with Ric. It struggled to keep rank in the top 100. If those numbers were a problem for Grayson there's no way those numbers aren't then a problem for the more marketable series. It lasted so long cause the were gearing up for 5G and Nightwing was low priory. It was just more convenient to let Dick be busy work for creators they like but work but no longer draw.

    Ive said it multiple times, this status que is a direct response to Ric. They went too far one way, and so now they are going the other. And that does make sense, and it is working out, but that doesn't mean Grayson didn't make sense at its time and that it didn't also work out. There's a reason why half the team was put on Batman and Seeley was kept for the new biweekly series. I don't know if Grayson could have lasted 83 issues, it existed under different conditions, but it was iffy if Nightwing was going to be able to make is 83 issue at times. This run has been a success too. But its not that cut and dry, as numbers we see are no longer reliable and the conditions are much different.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-21-2021 at 02:22 PM.

  15. #3225
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Regardless, I want the character to be successful. This run is doing that. The more eyes the better
    .

    I'm sure that's the thought behind Disney live-actions movies. Taylor's Nightwing is almost as original as those, and the story just as memorable.

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