Page 244 of 270 FirstFirst ... 144194234240241242243244245246247248254 ... LastLast
Results 3,646 to 3,660 of 4043
  1. #3646
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    6,140

  2. #3647
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,437

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    (I liked the Morrison story, but Jason is so much a villain there that it's unsustainable if you want to do other things with him.)
    Morrison had a second "story" with him in the second volume of Batman Inc. where he pretends to be Wingman and is less villainous. I wonder if that was something that Morrison came up with himself as an evolution of Jason (Batman and Robin story being basically rock bottom from which he recovers a bit) or was it pushed by editors/Didio since Jason was supposed to sell some comics during New 52.

  3. #3648

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    technically we have seen that moment before but instead of them working as a team Jason gets frustrated and goes on ahead. New52 portrayed their relationship more antagonistically, they are trying to erase that decade jason was actuly Nightwings archenemy and they more or less hated each other for a long time. They even removed Dick being petty and angry at young jason. Dick not really that kind until after year one solo nightwing, and by that time jason is already dead.


    I liked his little detective moment.
    This misconception that Dick was anything but kind towards young Jason is based in fandom. He didn't like being replaced, but never showed Jason anything but respect.

    This post is an excellent write up on the topic https://lananiscorner.tumblr.com/pos...e-robin-in-the
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #3649
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    9,785

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    I think this piece of sarcasm being followed with a 'thank you' for the correction, is why people are pointing it out as unnecessary or insincere.
    the Thank you was sincere. How the hell any of this has anything to do with the OG point I was making in the comment beats me.

  5. #3650

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    I don’t need him to be an antagonist. But anti-hero. One whose views do not match the rest of the family. At least that version of him is unique. Right now he brings nothing unique to the table. The crowbar is lame. The original Jason Robin was just a copy and paste Dick Grayson. The only unique role he’s ever had is when he came back from the dead.

    No one wants Dick to be a sidekick. Not a single Nightwing fan. That’s just a term people use to devalue a status quo that doesn’t match their perception of the character. Like it or not even on the Titans, Dicks hook was he was from the Batfamily. The original Robin. I don’t want to get into this again, but being a part of a highly marketable franchise does not make you a side kick. Not once in this run has Dick been a sidekick. Don’t like the run. Fine. But he has been the focal point. In fact the point of the run so far has been him trying a different approach than Bruce.
    So what you want is to toss out all of his previous characterization to make Jason "unique". That's fine. If anything, hoping that happens again is actually reasonable, since that's what happened when it was decided Jason would die and again when he came back to life.

    Also, which run? Taylor's? I didn't say anything regarding that in my comments about Jason or Dick, what I meant is that Dick has been a sidekick in Batman books for the past 10 years. Although, then again, he always felt a little subservient to Batman since Dixon took over too. He was independent enough in the Dixon era stories I've read to maintain the illusion he was his own man at least, kinda like now with Taylor's run. Although, I am amused you thought I meant Taylor's run specifically, since I guess "Dick is not the main character" or something similar is a common enough critique lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    To each his own. While they have different personalities, the role he currently fils as well as his limits make him too similar to other characters for me. Until a few years ago I read every single Jason book. Now I just can’t muster the interest. But as I said, everyone has there own take on the character they prefer and that’s okay. I just think the version that the anti-hero/killer version will be the one that also gets the most tract with general audiences.
    This just sounds like how I feel about the current Nightwing run.

    Dick as Batman's sidekick is also the version that has the most traction with general audiences. I'm not happy about that either, but it is what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    I saw someone on reddit say that Red Hood being a goodie-two shoes now basically makes him "Lite-Wing." And I agree with that. He needs to bring something different to Gotham. And that can't be the same schtick as all the other Robins but "more edgy." I'm not a big fan of the overlapping roles character regardless of their "character arc." Have them branch out in different directions rather than back to the trunk.
    See this is really funny, because this is what I'd say about Nightwing. He's been watered down for a long time now, which is somewhat reasonable since Jason's resurrection meant he would be the totally edgy one and Dick wouldn't really be allowed to be anything but "the good Robin".

    Regardless, the fact that Jason is alive and that there are two other current Robins in Tim and Damian means they'll all overlap. They were all Robin, trained more or less by the same Batman. They may be unique characters, but they never have had unique roles. Bring Dick back to Gotham, and now you have four characters with overlapping roles. The only solution would be to Didio it all and get rid of all the overlapping characters. The only preventative measure would've been to never introduce all these characters in the first place, i.e. Jason's resurrection. The fact of the matter is Jason is alive now. He's going to overlap no matter what. Even as an anti-hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    I wouldn’t say it’s like that. Remember Jason as Robin wasn’t particularly successful. His modern reinvention as Red Hood is suppose to contrast what he was like as Robin in the 80’s, as that Jason was literally dead and buried after being more or less rejected by audiences.
    Jason was only killed off because the poll was rigged, apparently. He was only chosen to be in the poll because he was a Robin, making him significant, and not Dick, making him not significant enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackJustMetMartin View Post
    This misconception that Dick was anything but kind towards young Jason is based in fandom. He didn't like being replaced, but never showed Jason anything but respect.

    This post is an excellent write up on the topic https://lananiscorner.tumblr.com/pos...e-robin-in-the
    This is exactly what I was getting at too. This issue felt truer to both Dick and Jason than I expected.
    Last edited by Grayson - The Dark Heir; 12-02-2021 at 10:29 AM.

  6. #3651
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    336

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayson - The Dark Heir View Post
    So what you want is to toss out all of his previous characterization to make Jason "unique". That's fine. If anything, hoping that happens again is actually reasonable, since that's what happened when it was decided Jason would die and again when he came back to life.

    Also, which run? Taylor's? I didn't say anything regarding that in my comments about Jason or Dick, what I meant is that Dick has been a sidekick in Batman books for the past 10 years. Although, then again, he always felt a little subservient to Batman since Dixon took over too. He was independent enough in the Dixon era stories I've read to maintain the illusion he was his own man at least, kinda like now with Taylor's run. Although, I am amused you thought I meant Taylor's run specifically, since I guess "Dick is not the main character" or something similar is a common enough critique lol.


    This just sounds like how I feel about the current Nightwing run.

    Dick as Batman's sidekick is also the version that has the most traction with general audiences. I'm not happy about that either, but it is what it is.


    See this is really funny, because this is what I'd say about Nightwing. He's been watered down for a long time now, which is somewhat reasonable since Jason's resurrection meant he would be the totally edgy one and Dick wouldn't really be allowed to be anything but "the good Robin".

    Regardless, the fact that Jason is alive and that there are two other current Robins in Tim and Damian means they'll all overlap. They were all Robin, trained more or less by the same Batman. They may be unique characters, but they never have had unique roles. Bring Dick back to Gotham, and now you have four characters with overlapping roles. The only solution would be to Didio it all and get rid of all the overlapping characters. The only preventative measure would've been to never introduce all these characters in the first place, i.e. Jason's resurrection. The fact of the matter is Jason is alive now. He's going to overlap no matter what. Even as an anti-hero.


    Jason was only killed off because the poll was rigged, apparently. He was only chosen to be in the poll because he was a Robin, making him significant, and not Dick, making him not significant enough.



    This is exactly what I was getting at too. This issue felt truer to both Dick and Jason than I expected.
    Not really. If Jason was villanous or even just an outsider to the Batfamily, then there is no overlap for him. Damien currently holds the role of Robin and has the most unique take on the role. That leaves Dick and Tim. Unfortunately, since Tim left the role of Robin he has not been able to find his place and may never. He does not really serve any purpose. Stuck between being Robin and his own solo hero. Nightwing on the other hand is the Robin who grew out of Batmans shadow and his own solo hero. Some stories do leave him a little watered down. But its pretty easy to see what makes him unique compared to others. Being the original, all other adult Robins are currently coming off as pale imitations. What edge? Jason has no more edge. I`d take Morrisons BandR take over what we are getting now.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 12-02-2021 at 11:11 AM.

  7. #3652
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    10,927

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayson - The Dark Heir View Post
    Jason was only killed off because the poll was rigged, apparently. He was only chosen to be in the poll because he was a Robin, making him significant, and not Dick, making him not significant enough.
    And then left dead for decades. Poll being rigged or not, the most most successful thing about his tenure as Robin was his death. There was no demand for how he was as Robin, and his reinvention as Red Hood played off that and the idea that he was a failure as Robin.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 12-02-2021 at 11:24 AM.

  8. #3653
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    336

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    And then left dead for 20+ years. Poll being rigged or not, the most most successful thing about his tenure as Robin was his death. There was no demand for how he was as Robin, and his reinvention as Red Hood played off that and the idea that he was a failure.
    100% agreed. His success as a character was because of the Red Hood reinvention.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 12-02-2021 at 11:32 AM.

  9. #3654
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    3,455

    Default

    About the overlapping stuff. Yesterday I went to Reddit and wrote this. My post was larger, but because I repeated a few points that I've already written here before, I'll share here what I hadn't yet.

    I'll give you all an example of a story you can write with Jason but not with Dick. So what happens when Jason, who isn't killing anymore, finds the daughter of a mafiosi that he killed years ago? Or, what happens when he's framed and captured and can't prove his innocence because his history works strongly against him? Or a new villain really pushes his new resolve too much and he's about to kill them, would will them, decides to kill them ultimately, and falls again even if it's justified to some point? Or he kills someone in self defence. Or he meets someone who has a personal story with the red hood as he was before and Jason gets extorted by someone else into let this new person knows his past? Or an old partner in crime comes to him asking for help, and he can't leave him alone for whatever reason? Or he discovers that his past activities come back to bite his ass putting a lot of innocents in peril? These are a bunch that come to my mind. I bet there're a lot more. And the same can be said for Dick: his own history, his personality, gaves him lots of potential stories that wouldn't work for Jason.
    The overlapping issue is not a problem, because they all are different enough to tell their own stories. Even when sharing the same role.

    You could say that Jason as a villain also overlaps a ton of the rogues, too. Or even as a strangled character from the batfam. He can overlap a whole lot of characters. Within the family even.
    A character is the stories you can tell with them. It's their backstory, their actual history in the pages, their behaviour, their personality, a lot of actual features. Not just a role, or a gimmick or if they kill or not. Let's take Dick, for example. There're other characters in the fam that are good guys who are detectives and are core members. Babs, for example. Or Kate. Yet there're stories that you can only write with Dick, and Babs, and Kate, because they're more than just that. There're heroes in the DCU who were in the circus or performers, like Zatanna, or Deathman; but you can't write for them just the same stories for each one of them. The're non powered former sidekicks who are not adults in the titans, like Roy; but there're stories that you can write for him and only him. And there're stories that you can write for Dick and Bruce, or Oliver, starting from the same premise, but they'll turn completely different for each of them because they behave, have personalities that are pretty different.

    It's like saying that you don't need new teams of titans because they overlap unless you change them to their core, erasing their previous story. Well, sorry, but I strongly disagree.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-02-2021 at 12:09 PM.
    Always changing; ever the same.

    This is my Tumblr. Sometimes I post stuff there.

  10. #3655
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    336

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    About the overlapping stuff. Yesterday I went to Reddit and wrote this. My post was larger, but because I repeated a few points that I've already written here before, I'll share here what I hadn't yet.



    The overlapping issue is not a problem, because they all are different enough to tell their own stories. Even when sharing the same role.

    You could say that Jason as a villain also overlaps a ton of the rogues, too. Or even as a strangled character from the batfam. He can overlap a whole lot of characters. Within the family even.
    A character is the stories you can tell with them. It's their backstory, their actual history in the pages, their behaviour, their personality, a lot of actual features. Not just a role, or a gimmick or if they kill or not. Let's take Dick, for example. There're other characters in the fam that are good guys who are detectives and are core members. Babs, for example. Or Kate. Yet there're stories that you can only write with Dick, and Babs, and Kate, because they're more than just that. There're heroes in the DCU who were in the circus or performers, like Zatanna, or Deathman; but you can't write for them just the same stories for each one of them. The're non powered former sidekicks who are not adults in the titans, like Roy; but there're stories that you can write for him and only him. And there're stories that you can write for Dick and Bruce, or Oliver, starting from the same premise, but they'll turn completely different for each of them because they behave, have personalities that are pretty different.

    It's like saying that you don't need new teams of titans because they overlap unless you change them to their core, erasing their previous story. Well, sorry, but I strongly disagree.
    But he does not overlap with the villains because of his history as Robin. While there are some select stories you can tell with Jason you cannot tell with other Robins, these are not the ones being told. Additionally, him still being killer or a Batfam outsider does not get rid of the possibility of these stories being told. However, his current status does eliminate the possibility of a ton of other stories that would be unique to him and him alone. I am not saying he cannot have unique stories as he is now. I am saying he is now sharing a bloated space and his potential for unique stories is significantly lower.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 12-02-2021 at 02:53 PM.

  11. #3656

    Default

    Idk but all the infos we got until now about the batgirl movie is pretty much reminding me of earth-2 Barbara, you guys think we may get a tie-in to the nightwing movie ? Yeah I know Snyder said Dick is dead in the Affleckverse but I can totally see they just ignoring what he said and just letting it be Jason

  12. #3657
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    336

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spideyvinnegar View Post
    Idk but all the infos we got until now about the batgirl movie is pretty much reminding me of earth-2 Barbara, you guys think we may get a tie-in to the nightwing movie ? Yeah I know Snyder said Dick is dead in the Affleckverse but I can totally see they just ignoring what he said and just letting it be Jason
    Yeah I think they are trying to set up an HBO Max Bat-universe. Since Dick dying isn`t canon yet and they want to do a Red Hood movie I am pretty sure this is the direction they are going in. Hoping Chris Mckay is not attached. Do not really like his pitch and his last live action move sucked.

  13. #3658
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    3,455

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    But he does not overlap with the villains because of his history as Robin. While there are some select stories you can tell with Jason you cannot tell with other Robins, these are not the ones being told. Additionally, him still being killer or a Batfam outsider does not get rid of the possibility of these stories being told. However, his current status does eliminate the possibility of a ton of other stories that would be unique to him and him alone. I am not saying he cannot have unique stories as he is now. I am saying he is now sharing a bloated space and his potential for unique stories is significantly lower.
    That could be said for many, many character in the batmythos, almost every time, for the last 20 years, actually. Why do we have Black Mask when we have Two Faces? They're fairly similar, these two guys. You know why it's so easy to switch villains in events? Because most of them are so simplified these days that they're barely gimmicks. One thing I can say that I liked from Morrison's run in Batman was his villains, precisely. Except for Jason, he really worked some nice bad guys that only needed some more depth to them for creating more stories. I'm still waiting for writers to give it to them, but looking at how we're simplifying every villain to plain gimmicks, I could as well wait sitting in a very cozy and comfortable coach with a cup of cocoa and a very big book at hand or three. You can see why I'm absolutely not trilled with the idea of my favourite character turning into a villain who's just going to be there to be fuel for the hero, one week every year. Let alone a character that I think it's not villain material and has been mistreated so often since its creation, it's not even fun. Why has to be Jason again? This is me two years ago when Jason was again the character used to be the suspect of being the bad guy in Leviatan. This is me again a year ago when the Future State storyline came and Jason was again apparently the rotten one of the bunch. Well, neither of those stories turned bad, Jason wasn't the one behind the Leviatan stuff, nor was he aligned with the magistrate in Future State. Those two stories are arguably fitting for Jason, because his background. But the initial bait for the story? It was simplistic, reducing the character to one trait, playing that one trait, and ignoring anything else. Imagine those stories did used Jason as a plain villain, and he was the bad guy for some really weak reason that goes against what he was before. Me, as a reader that loves the character, I would be so mad at the writer. How in depth do you usually see a villains point of view that makes him interesting? Not often, because the readers usually don't want to know about the villain, unless they're somewhat bizarre and espectacular. Most of them want to read the heroes being heroic. You can pull the villain card well, like in Under the Hood, or like Loki was in the DCU, who, btw, ends up being pretty antiheroic or even heroic. But you can't pull that card many times, because readers don't want antagonists like that. They want danger and threats to overcome and defeat. An antagonistic Jason once in a while? Sure. If it's well written, I bet I can enjoy a lot that story: Jason can tell that story. But I don't want that as the default status for my favourite character. Statistically, It's probably not going to end good for him.

    The way of doing things right, is writing stories for these characters that make them shine, give the readers a view of how these characters are, what's their former story, how have they lived, what have they gone through. But that takes time and luck, and talent. But mostly time and luck. We don't know what stories are going to turn good and what stories are going to turn meh or bad until they're there and they're executed. Writing is a creative process, it's not science, there's not a recipe for inspiration and each writer draws their inspiration from their own life experience and knowledge. Those stories will come, eventually. Same as they came. But I don't know when that's going to happen, or if it will be sooner or later. At least, putting him clearly in the side of the good guys gives him levelage, because there're more stories with good guys than bad guys in the lead role.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-02-2021 at 03:41 PM. Reason: love when I mix in spanish
    Always changing; ever the same.

    This is my Tumblr. Sometimes I post stuff there.

  14. #3659
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    336

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    That could be said for many, many character in the batmythos, almost every time, for the last 20 years, actually. Why do we have Black Mask when we have Two Faces? They're fairly similar, these two guys. You know why it's so easy to switch villains in events? Because most of them are so simplified these days that they're barely gimmicks. One thing I can say that I liked from Morrison's run in Batman was his villains, precisely. Except for Jason, he really worked some nice bad guys that only needed some more depth to them for creating more stories. I'm still waiting for writers to give it to them, but looking at how we're simplifying every villain to plain gimmicks, I could as well wait sitting in a very cozy and comfortable coach with a cup of cocoa and a very big book at hand or three. You can see why I'm absolutely not trilled with the idea of my favourite character turning into a villain who's just going to be there to be fuel for the hero, one week every year. Let alone a character that I think it's not villain material and has been mistreated so often since its creation, it's not even fun. Why has to be Jason again? This is me two years ago when Jason was again the character used to be the suspect of being the bad guy in Leviatan. This is me again a year ago when the Future State storyline came and Jason was again apparently the rotten one of the bunch. Well, neither of those stories turned bad, Jason wasn't the one behind the Leviatan stuff, nor was he aligned with the magistrate in Future State. Those two stories are arguably fitting for Jason, because his background. But the initial bait for the story? It was simplistic, reducing the character to one trait, playing that one trait, and ignoring anything else. Imagine those stories did used Jason as a plain villain, and he was the bad guy for some really weak reason that goes against what he was before. Me, as a reader that loves the character, I would be so mad at the writer. How in depth do you usually see a villains point of view that makes him interesting? Not often, because the readers usually don't want to know about the villain, unless they're somewhat bizarre and espectacular. Most of them want to read the heroes being heroic. You can pull the villain card well, like in Under the Hood, or like Loki was in the DCU, who, btw, ends up being pretty antiheroic or even heroic. But you can't pull that card many times, because readers don't want antagonists like that. They want danger and threats to overcome and defeat. An antagonistic Jason once in a while? Sure. If it's well written, I bet I can enjoy a lot that story: Jason can tell that story. But I don't want that as the default status for my favourite character. Statistically, It's probably not going to end good for him.

    The way of doing things right, is writing stories for these characters that make them shine, give the readers a view of how these characters are, what's their former story, how have they lived, what have they gone through. But that takes time and luck, and talent. But mostly time and luck. We don't know what stories are going to turn good and what stories are going to turn meh or bad until they're there and they're executed. Writing is a creative process, it's not science, there's not a recipe for inspiration and each writer draws their inspiration from their own life experience and knowledge. Those stories will come, eventually. Same as they came. But I don't know when that's going to happen, or if it will be sooner or later. At least, putting him clearly in the side of the good guys gives him levelage, because there're more stories with good guys than bad guys in the lead role.
    Okay, well good point. Jason is now Black Mask to Nightwings Two Face. We all know which villain is more popular and interesting. I am all for getting rid or reinventing villains that fill the same slot as well. Jason does not need to be a straight antagonist. But being hero that does not kill and is a full fledge member of the Batfamily takes away story potential. Where as the opposite is not true.

  15. #3660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Okay, well good point. Jason is now Black Mask to Nightwings Two Face. We all know which villain is more popular and interesting. I am all for getting rid or reinventing villains that fill the same slot as well. Jason does not need to be a straight antagonist. But being hero that does not kill and is a full fledge member of the Batfamily takes away story potential. Where as the opposite is not true.
    That's the exact same situation Nightwing is in. It doesn't "take away" potential, because being part of the Batfamily is why we have stuff like Gotham Knights and Wayne Family Adventures, where both Dick and Jason are simply parts of the Batfamily. Both seemingly very popular in their respective mediums, both only existing as they do because both characters have the potential to be tied so heavily to the family, etc.

    You don't have to like it when it comes to Jason or Dick, I usually don't like how Nightwing is treated in Batbooks after all. It's just the thing you're asking for isn't just ignoring Jason's original characterization as Robin, which is what I was talking about earlier, but also all of his character development since 2011. Which is still reasonable, just not something I personally agree with.

    If we're going to talk about limiting characters, the Detective Comics Annual is a good example I think. On first glance, it just looks like an issue where Dick is Bruce's sidekick. Yet, the entire issue is about the impact Dick has on Bruce and on Gotham, and it's real neat. Nothing crazy, but it was nice to see Dick function as not just Bruce's conscience as he usually does, but Gotham's as a whole. Dick doesn't need to be in Gotham, and he doesn't need to be on this case. He's here because he wants to be. At least, that's the in-universe reason. The obvious reason for this is because he's the Batcharacter with the deepest connection with Bruce.

    The thing about the 'Tec Annual is that you could tell the same general story, same bones at least, with any Robin. Or even Batfamily member. I mean, you could even replace Bruce in this too. The story could've been about Dick and Steph, or Kate and Duke, etc. These characters overlap, that's just how it is. That might "limit" what stories you can tell with them, but it doesn't limit you from telling good stories. Dick is the best example really, since he has no business being in Gotham for a story like this. He shouldn't be a Batcharacter. But he is, so this story happened, and it was nice and sets up a great potential event in Shadows of the Bat. If he was a DCU or Titans character through and through, this story probably wouldn't exist.

    So yeah, overall, I don't think throwing out a character's previous characterizations is a bad thing, since it's happened before and people like the reinvented characters, I just like the Nightwing Annual for bringing Dick and Jason's past relationship back to where it used to be. Like, it's kinda sad that outside of some one-off appearances in each other's books and Bat events, the only time that was ever focused on and done even remotely well was a Lobdell issue.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •