Dick Grayson: Robin/ Nightwing/ Agent 37 Appreciation 2021

[SiegePerilous02]

But what I said is Dick/Babs is not really relevant when Dick is operating outside of the Bat-verse, so not getting that context reeks of reading comprehension fail. And since DC will NEVER retire Bruce, there is no point restricting Dick to the Bat-books. At least Barbara has Birds of Prey which while technically a 'Bat-book' is only tangentially so and mostly just because of her and the location. Also, narratively speaking, I don't think the ship being endgame is really interesting for either character and is a bit Peter Parker/Gwen Stacy-esque in that first love being OTP tends to be less interesting than when the character is allowed to develop and mature and then find a partner in someone else, with whom their relationship can be better informed thanks to past experiences. Or I guess the other option is just going Cyclops/Jean Grey/Wolverine/Emma Frost poly, but then again, I feel that works is because BOTH Scott and Jean had iconic love rivals in Logan and Emma respectively. A Dick/Babs/Kori relationship would be too Dick-centric.

Except not really, because bringing up irrelevancy is pointless in the first place. there is no reason for it to become irrelevant once Dick steps into the wider DCU (as evidenced by Babs being brought into the Titans show). Which he has been doing since he was Robin anyway with all the team ups with Superman and the Teen Titans, among other things. He shouldn't be restricted to the Bat-books, but wresting him from them completely is an unrealistic pipedream. Both for him and Barbara (though she too should be allowed to branch out way more than she does), but it doesn't have to be the narrative death sentence DC allows it to be either. And it's not like pairing him back up with Starfire really does much for him, in its own way it shackles him to a team book that is trapped reliving its glory days of the 80s over and over again.

The Peter/Gwen comparison doesn't really work in this scenario. You'd need to find a much better developed love interest than her (as a love interest and a character in her own right) to compare to Babs.

[Rakiduam]

Except not really, because bringing up irrelevancy is pointless in the first place. there is no reason for it to become irrelevant once Dick steps into the wider DCU (as evidenced by Babs being brought into the Titans show)l.

You mean the bat family show previously known as Titans? They are going to be in Gotham fighting the Red Hood and the Scarecrow. That's not the wider DCU, they made the Titans smaller to fit on a Bat junior mold, completely crushed any potential the show had.

I have to say I didn't expect that Babs fans would to argue that Babs fit better into boring Bludhaven because unlike Starfire she doesn't shine. Can't disagree though.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

And it's not like pairing him back up with Starfire really does much for him, in its own way it shackles him to a team book that is trapped reliving its glory days of the 80s over and over again.

You say this like the Nightwing book hasn't been trying to relive the "glory" days of the 90's over and over again, since, you know, the early 2000's, shackling him to Batman forever.

I think these conversations are going in circles now so I'm going to stay out of the rest of it, but this one point I needed to respond to lol.

[RedQueen]

I'm actually looking forward to dickbabs this time because it looks like they're gonna actually commit to a love story. They've been annoying for the last 10 years but now they're actually acting semi-sane around each other it's a good thing.

Kori and Dick in titans slept together and then he's ditching her again without having a proper talk about what it actually means.

To me just from the narrative from the last twenty years of stories, I would definitely say Kory loves dick more than he loves her.

[SiegePerilous02]

You mean the bat family show previously known as Titans? They are going to be in Gotham fighting the Red Hood and the Scarecrow. That's not the wider DCU, they made the Titans smaller to fit on a Bat junior mold, completely crushed any potential the show had.

I have to say I didn't expect that Babs fans would to argue that Babs fit better into boring Bludhaven because unlike Starfire she doesn't shine. Can't disagree though.

The show never had much appeal to me anyway. I dislike throwing the Bat-family into it (and the casting of Bruce is weird), but it's not like Dick's ties to the Bat-family have ever been irrelevant when he moved into the wider DCU. So this is nothing new.

You say this like the Nightwing book hasn't been trying to relive the "glory" days of the 90's over and over again, since, you know, the early 2000's, shackling him to Batman forever.

I think these conversations are going in circles now so I'm going to stay out of the rest of it, but this one point I needed to respond to lol.

When have I ever given the impression that I liked Bludhaven and the 90s/2000s Bat-books? Dixon is actually one of my least favorite influences on the Bat-verse. I'm not picking up the new run because outside of the artwork, the setup and Taylor's writing don't appeal to me for the very reason you are listing.

It's just that the Titans and Kory aren't going to automatically set Dick free from bad writing and a bad relationship the way people think either, since the Titans franchise hasn't had anything good since the 80s. Kory and Babs are more or less on equal footing for being great characters who can be in a well written relationship for Dick, but also have potential to drag in a lot of baggage or be written poorly. For all the stories of Dick and Babs bringing out the worst in each other, there is the original NTT run which didn't paint the romance with Kory as being the healthiest long term prospect either. I think Wolfman intended it to come across as more romantic than it ever actually did.

To me just from the narrative from the last twenty years of stories, I would definitely say Kory loves dick more than he loves her.

That actually suits the old NTT run as well.

Between this and Terry Long, Kory/Donna has some appeal

[Claude]

New Round Robin vote up. I'd read a Seeley "Robins" series. I'd enjoy a Seeley "Robins" series. I'd buy an a omnibus of "Dick Grayson by Tim Seeley" with his Nightwing run, Nightwing vs Hush and a Robins series.

But my conscience dictated I support a Sina Grace Kyle Rayner.

[Rac7d*]

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[Confuzzled]

Except not really, because bringing up irrelevancy is pointless in the first place. there is no reason for it to become irrelevant once Dick steps into the wider DCU (as evidenced by Babs being brought into the Titans show). Which he has been doing since he was Robin anyway with all the team ups with Superman and the Teen Titans, among other things. He shouldn't be restricted to the Bat-books, but wresting him from them completely is an unrealistic pipedream. Both for him and Barbara (though she too should be allowed to branch out way more than she does), but it doesn't have to be the narrative death sentence DC allows it to be either. And it's not like pairing him back up with Starfire really does much for him, in its own way it shackles him to a team book that is trapped reliving its glory days of the 80s over and over again.

Barbara making an appearance in Titans doesn't mean she will stay there permanently (as it is, people are already complaining about the number of Bat-characters making it onto the show) and she's obviously brought on as a foil to Kori and for soap opera purposes being Dick's first serious love interest. Also, how is it an "unrealistic pipedream" for Dick to be more independent from the Bat-books when he already did that to a great degree in the 80's, which, as you later pointed out yourself as the "glory days of Titans" in the same post. At least Titans have glory days unlike Bludhaven/Gotham based Nightwing. DC should just let Dick be a space voyager in his solo adventures while simultaneously overseeing an expanding roster of Titans, which I now feel DC should invest in more as they are the closest they have to the X-Men. DC is only stubborn to evolve the franchise as it's not really the 80's they want to imitate but the mega popular animated shows.

The Peter/Gwen comparison doesn't really work in this scenario. You'd need to find a much better developed love interest than her (as a love interest and a character in her own right) to compare to Babs.

I did mention Scott/Jean and even they are now in a tie of sorts with Scott/Emma and Jean/Logan.

[SiegePerilous02]

Barbara making an appearance in Titans doesn't mean she will stay there permanently (as it is, people are already complaining about the number of Bat-characters making it onto the show) and she's obviously brought on as a foil to Kori and for soap opera purposes being Dick's first serious love interest. Also, how is it an "unrealistic pipedream" for Dick to be more independent from the Bat-books when he already did that to a great degree in the 80's, which, as you later pointed out yourself as the "glory days of Titans" in the same post. At least Titans have glory days unlike Bludhaven/Gotham based Nightwing. DC should just let Dick be a space voyager in his solo adventures while simultaneously overseeing an expanding roster of Titans, which I now feel DC should invest in more as they are the closest they have to the X-Men. DC is only stubborn to evolve the franchise as it's not really the 80's they want to imitate but the mega popular animated shows..

Even if they are bringing in Babs for soap opera drama, the fact that they are even doing it indicates they are aware of the ship wars and want to get some of that mileage in their show. Even if it favors Kory, Babs is a presence that was probably always going to have to be addressed as far as the fanbases were concerned, even if doing it the way they will may be too much for something that should be a Titans centric show.

Because the amount of time he spent away from the Bat-verse with the Titans is a drop in the bucket compared to the preceding decades he spent in the Bat-verse as Robin (his most important identity), and it was to the Bat-verse he returned to and found stable success with after the Titans ship sunk. DC has been chasing the NTT nostalgia off and on for decades because that's pretty much the only era that IP has going for it comics wise, and that well has run dry. I don't care for the Bludhaven stuff at all, but it was a reliable stable seller that kept Nightwing afloat whereas the Titans as a group have languished. He really should break free from both franchises and truly spread his wings, possibly with a new love interest entirely, but I can't see the Titans doing anything for him currently with how they mismanage the property and how piss poor the Rebirth attempt was. What you are saying for the Titans sounds good in theory, but good luck getting creators and fans alike to agree on what the direction of the Titnas should be because nobody has a clear idea. Down to debating if Dick's group are even too old to be Titans, and this academy thing isn't helping with that.

I did mention Scott/Jean and even they are now in a tie of sorts with Scott/Emma and Jean/Logan.

Then that just means first loves stories can be varied and don't have to play out the same way. Peter/Gwen and Scott/Jean don't really indicate anything about how Dick/Barbara can play out.

[John Venus]

I always assumed Oracle's modulator still comes off as feminine, but I guess in-universe it has to be gender neutral for secret identity purposes.

Yeah, Babs doesn't like Kori .

Even if she hides her voice, her speech patterns would give it away.

What cracks me up is that she doesn't even try to hide her contempt; "Bitch, go back to your planet and stay there!". I guess this is Babs achillies heel; she's a control freak who can be possessive and manipulative. There is a reason she became Batgirl and not Robin-Girl. Bruce and Babs are more similar than they like to believe (this is not a tactic approval of Bruce/Babs).

[Confuzzled]

Even if they are bringing in Babs for soap opera drama, the fact that they are even doing it indicates they are aware of the ship wars and want to get some of that mileage in their show. Even if it favors Kory, Babs is a presence that was probably always going to have to be addressed as far as the fanbases were concerned, even if doing it the way they will may be too much for something that should be a Titans centric show.

Except now the Teen Titans/Teen Titans Go!/Titans fans will see her as "the other woman" if this is how she's being introduced to them and the Dick/Kori dynamics.

Because the amount of time he spent away from the Bat-verse with the Titans is a drop in the bucket compared to the preceding decades he spent in the Bat-verse as Robin (his most important identity), and it was to the Bat-verse he returned to and found stable success with after the Titans ship sunk. DC has been chasing the NTT nostalgia off and on for decades because that's pretty much the only era that IP has going for it comics wise, and that well has run dry. I don't care for the Bludhaven stuff at all, but it was a reliable stable seller that kept Nightwing afloat whereas the Titans as a group have languished. He really should break free from both franchises and truly spread his wings, possibly with a new love interest entirely, but I can't see the Titans doing anything for him currently with how they mismanage the property and how piss poor the Rebirth attempt was. What you are saying for the Titans sounds good in theory, but good luck getting creators and fans alike to agree on what the direction of the Titnas should be because nobody has a clear idea. Down to debating if Dick's group are even too old to be Titans, and this academy thing isn't helping with that.

There seem to be so many subjective things here presented as objective. Even if Robin is Dick's most important role, Titans and its Hydra-tentacled media has ensured it has substantially separated him even in that capacity from Batman. Again, you keep focusing on the comics when the adaptations are where the most number of fans are present. The current Titans show solidifying Dick/Kori as OTP shows DC knows EXACTLY who their audience is and what they want. The adaptations are literally the biggest reason why editorial refuses to budge with comics Titans. In the 2010's, didn't TT sell better than the Bludhaven based books? Even if they didn't, the difference wouldn't be earth-shattering. Titans is still one of DC's biggest IPs and the one they should focus on diversifying, expanding and evolving the most to get off this Bat-crutch.

Then that just means first loves stories can be varied and don't have to play out the same way. Peter/Gwen and Scott/Jean don't really indicate anything about how Dick/Barbara can play out.

I mean, if Dick/Babs haven't been all that captivating so far...

[Restingvoice]

Out of all hair styles he wore, side swept, mullet, mane, shaggy... has Dick ever wore his a manbun before Robins?

[Avi]

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I like the dynamics. Dick's speech sounds a bit awkward though. The designs are a choice, but I like them. Dick in a man bun is amusing. Kinda suits him. This could be fun.

[Frontier]

Even if she hides her voice, her speech patterns would give it away.

What cracks me up is that she doesn't even try to hide her contempt; "Bitch, go back to your planet and stay there!". I guess this is Babs achillies heel; she's a control freak who can be possessive and manipulative. There is a reason she became Batgirl and not Robin-Girl. Bruce and Babs are more similar than they like to believe (this is not a tactic approval of Bruce/Babs).

Yeah, Babs can get pretty judgemental and high-and-mighty when she wants to be.

[SiegePerilous02]

There seem to be so many subjective things here presented as objective. Even if Robin is Dick's most important role, Titans and its Hydra-tentacled media has ensured it has substantially separated him even in that capacity from Batman. Again, you keep focusing on the comics when the adaptations are where the most number of fans are present. The current Titans show solidifying Dick/Kori as OTP shows DC knows EXACTLY who their audience is and what they want. The adaptations are literally the biggest reason why editorial refuses to budge with comics Titans. In the 2010's, didn't TT sell better than the Bludhaven based books? Even if they didn't, the difference wouldn't be earth-shattering. Titans is still one of DC's biggest IPs and the one they should focus on diversifying, expanding and evolving the most to get off this Bat-crutch.

It was a response to you saying Dick already escaped from the Bat-office back in the 80s, which is a comics only thing. It didn't last and the Titans haven't done much for him (comics wise) since then. If you don't care for the Bludhaven stuff, his stints as Batman II and Agent Grayson still did more for him than any modern Titans comic has. The Titans in general can't get out of their rut, to the point where their arch nemesis (Deathstroke) is a bigger deal than they are as a group. Rebirth run was a joke that treated Dick extremely poorly, and the Titans run by Winnnick before that fizzled out fairly quickly. It's hard to replicate the success of the adaptations because the adaptations have the benefit of being aimed at people who haven't read the repetitive comics over and over again, so they can take old stuff and make it fresh.

Yes, the adaptations are a different story. And yes, naturally Kory is going to be the endgame in Titans-related adaptations like the DTVs, cartoons and the show. But it sounds like you are assuming there is only one audience that wants only one thing. I don't think the mainstream audience has such a horse in this shipping race that they are overly invested in who Dick gets with, especially as Dick isn't a character who is ever going to be limited to one version. Or one IP, he's always going to be showing up in both Batman media and Titans related media. Titans Dick is with Kory, YJ Dick is (at least so far) with Babs. Does the YJ crew not know what the audience wants or something? And Bat-films that get around to using the Bat-family are very likely going to utilize Dick and Babs as a pairing. Neither ship is ever going away and there likely won't ever be a definitive "one above all" across adaptations the way Lois is for Superman or even Catwoman is for Batman.

I mean, if Dick/Babs haven't been all that captivating so far...

Well, that depends on you ask. Some versions of Dick/Kory aren't always captivating either