Dick Grayson: Robin/ Nightwing/ Agent 37 Appreciation 2021

[9th.]

It's nice to see I'm not the only one feeling like this run has no substance so far lol. I'm trying to be patient, because the pay-off to all this might actually be worth it, but as of now, I just don't know why the Nightwing book is even being published right now. The first issue being slow and not really doing much of anything could easily be excused because it was the transition issue, but after two more issues I'm just a little disappointed. It's sort of the opposite problem of Teen Titans Academy, which is doing too much, too quickly, but that's something I can forgive just because the focus there is on advancement and an actual mystery, over... just the set-up to Dick being really rich and a new villain that has absolutely nothing interesting about them going on. Flatline in the Robin book was leagues more interesting as a character in her debut in Robin #1.

Batman/Superman is definitely the best book for a Dick Grayson fan right now lol.

Wait what? Whats going on there, what issues?

[HsssH]

Wait what? Whats going on there, what issues?

It started with #16 and it is going to conclude in August I think. Without spoiling much basically the idea is that there are two separate Golden Age inspired worlds, one with Batman and Robin (Dick) and another with Superman. And they end up crashing into each other. So yeah, technically its not in "main continuity", but Yang is writing really fun Dick there. He obviously is not the main character, but he does get a decent amount of panels in each issue and I'd go as far as saying that Batman/Superman/Dick/Lois get roughly equal amount of focus.

Overall it is really good and has fantastic art by Reis and I'd recommend it to everyone unless you are allergic to comics that deal with multiverse or alternatives realities.

[9th.]

It started with #16 and it is going to conclude in August I think. Without spoiling much basically the idea is that there are two separate Golden Age inspired worlds, one with Batman and Robin (Dick) and another with Superman. And they end up crashing into each other. So yeah, technically its not in "main continuity", but Yang is writing really fun Dick there. He obviously is not the main character, but he does get a decent amount of panels in each issue and I'd go as far as saying that Batman/Superman/Dick/Lois get roughly equal amount of focus.

Overall it is really good and has fantastic art by Reis and I'd recommend it to everyone unless you are allergic to comics that deal with multiverse or alternatives realities.

I tend to stay away from multiverse madness but that sounds kinda fun. Thanks for the info, I hate tracking stuff like that down.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

Oh boy, looking at this as I'm typing, and this is going to be very long. Apologies in advance...

Nightwing is the point of Nightwing. It’s an introductory character piece. A reintroduction into the character and his world. That’s why you see the humbling, as they want him to be relatable, and why were getting this melding pot of things from different eras being reintroduced.

And the stuff that's annoyed all of you pisses me off too. But when I sit back and remove my own biases and "haunted by the ghost of Didio" concerns, I don't think the book is actually doing anything "wrong." Pacing isn't any slower than most comics these days, it's just not cluttered with bloated action or Bendis-esque dialogue. The Bats have every right to guest star, they're Dick's family. Dick getting punked a little bit keeps him from being a uber-competent and boring Gary Stu (and would likely be funny if he hadn't been so abused for so long). Even Dick being in Bludhaven doing typical Dixon era things isn't any different from any other hero who recycles the same villains and plot points over and over again. It's not what many of us want, we want something new and amazing that cements Dick as a major player, but it's hard to complain about Blockbuster returning when we happily accept the return of over-used rogues like Scarecrow, Joker, Zod, and Lex Luthor.

I know you're not necessarily responding to my criticism here Ascended, but bear with me here lol.

For me, Dick being "humbled" isn't really an issue, especially not after the past two issues. It definitely made Babs look bad initially, but the next issue handled her relationship with Dick well enough that I'm past all that.

What Ascended said here is basically what I want:

Maybe I'm gonna be wrong but I still think Taylor is building towards a similar kind of shift, spending these early issues to remind us of who Dick is and where he came from (and why we love him) before launching him into something (at least somewhat) different.

I'm just waiting to see the point to everything lol. I don't want more action or more dialogue, I want more scenes. 3 issues aren't really cheap, and not much has happened. It's been maybe 24 in-universe hours so I can't expect much, except I never asked for them to take 3 months to cover 24 hours. That was Taylor's choice. it sounds like it's going to take a few more issues before we even "start" the run with #83, so I hope you can understand my disappointment.

My concerns are really just about substance. For example, the idea that Taylor wants to reconnect us to what Nightwing is and was doesn't really work when all we've seen so far is just Dick's old apartment, with Babs and Haley as the only supporting characters. That shows nothing about Bludhaven I'm supposed to care about, this series could very easily take place in Gotham and lose almost nothing of value (not that I'd want that lol).

Blockbuster is a good example of another issue I have, but it extends way further than just him. I like Blockbuster, or at least certain takes like Seeley's were cool. I'd be happy to see more done with the character. Except all we've gotten so far is a brutish mob boss, with none of his Rebirth characterization, so I have no idea why I care about this guy. It really, really doesn't help that he reads like DC's version of Wilson Fisk. Maybe he always was that and I never picked up on it until recently , but it hurts the Nightwing book as a whole quite a bit when he feels like a Daredevil character expy.

Continuing off of that, we're told Dick becoming rich is going to be a big deal because Dick is going to do more with it than Bruce would or did, which makes sense. You know what book features a character becoming rich, using that money to buy up part of the city, help citizens monetarily (resettle the homeless, decrease rent, etc.), all while moonlighting as a hero? The Daredevil book. Compared to that book, the Nightwing book has been completely performative in how Dick has used his inheritance so far. Setting up a homeless family in the richest hotel in the city just because, without a plan for literally anyone else in need would be something someone in Daredevil would probably criticize Dick for. Hell, it might even be something Dick would criticize Dick for. Hopefully Nightwing #83 can deal with some of these problems, but I'm worried for a reason.

It gets worse for me, because Daredevil is exploring various social issues in a way relevant to the Marvel universe and specifically Marvel's NYU, not just "the city" in a generic way. How superheroes actually interact with the world, and what doing "good" actually means. I'm not saying Nightwing has to be the same book (really, I'm arguing it should be more different if anything), but what exactly is Dick going to be doing? Unless Dick is going to be taking on mayors and senators and other billionaires and corporations, what is the point to having all this money? Hopefully it's just too early to answer that question, but again, in comparison to Daredevil, nothing about the Nightwing book so far is really doing much to establish what difference Dick's status quo means aside from incredibly performative "charity".

If it helps at all, I'll stop using Daredevil as a comparison starting now lol. Icon and Rocket is an upcoming book about the sweeping changes that occur around the world after Rocket convinces Icon, another rich man, to help her shut down the production and movement of drugs on a worldwide scale. The book isn't about stopping the drugs, that's just their motivation, but instead it's about how that shatters the underground workings of the world as a whole. After how loud Dick was about his charity, I'm not convinced Taylor is going to write Dick dealing with anything this big in his run.

Unless Dick is pushing for some massive changes, the Nightwing book is the lesser DC superhero book about dealing with social issues using influence. So add the Daredevil comparisons on top of that and I'm sure my whole post here should start making sense if it didn't already. And this is an entire post without mentioning Batman, who is currently dealing with corruption, politicians, the rich, and a murder mystery in Detective Comics, all of which is written in a way to link every character and plot point involved deeply to Gotham. Even if the Daredevil comparison is unfair, 'Tec has had just as many issues as Nightwing to get to where it is now. 3 issues, and only one previous Bludhaven landmark (being Dick's apartment building) has shown up, so it doesn't even feel like I've been looking at Bludhaven this whole time. The only other notable character in the book is also from Gotham. Nothing in the book feels connected to Bludhaven meaningfully.

Tim showing up in the last issue isn't a problem for me, it's just a problem that it means nothing to the book. Like I get it, Dick has a brother. But so what? Tim has some fun dialogue and then he advances the plot. Is there a deeper reason for him being in the issue or the book itself? In the first issue of the Nightwing Must Die arc, it's immediately apparent why Damian shows up. Not that Tim needs his own arc, just that I don't really see a reason for most of this issue not happening off-panel so something interesting would've been the focus instead.

I alluded to this already, but Heartless is also annoying just because it feels like we're supposed to care about this random mystery character, but there are barely any characters in the book notable enough to be Heartless, and the only reason to care about the character's identity is because they're wearing a mask so as a reader you know there will be a reveal of some kind. Maybe in the next few issues the murder mystery will actually be developed and we get enough clues to start figuring things out, but it's not there right now. Now look at the Judge in the Untouchable arc, where we just get a threatening villain introduced. The only "mysteries" are the Judge's plans and his origins, they don't waste panel time with an empty character or an irrelevant murder mystery. Same thing with someone like Raptor: interesting character first, and the intrigue comes in as a consequence.

All I can do is hope the book delivers on just about anything moving forward, because so far it's delivering on nothing but fantastic art and decent dialogue. All things considered, that's a major step up from where the book was before. This isn't a post to say the book isn't as good as it needs to be, this is a post to say the book isn't being as good as it thinks it already is.

[HsssH]

Great post.

[Avi]

No argument from me, Yang is firing on all cylinders with that title. I thought after he did Smashes the Klan that a regular monthly, main continuity title couldn't possibly match up, and Smash *is* the better read, but B/S is one of the best things DC is doing right now, easily the best book Superman is appearing in currently, and I don't think the Batman-Superman title (any volume) has ever been this good. I never would have thought of Yang as a potential Nightwing writer, but he's handled Dick so well in these pages I'd happily take him on Nightwing someday.

That's a thought. Not sure how he would handle Nightwing - Robin Dick is another beast entirely, imo - but I wouldn't mind taking the chance. He seems to be a good and engaged writer overall.

[…] Mostly it seems to me that we wingnuts have become hyper sensitive about how Dick is treated by DC, worried that the dark days of his abuse aren't over yet, and any minor infraction is viewed as a sign that DC still doesn't see the value in the character.

You're not wrong.

[…] Dick getting punked a little bit keeps him from being a uber-competent and boring Gary Stu (and would likely be funny if he hadn't been so abused for so long).

See, that's the issue for me. Why punk a character, in such strange ways, who has been abused for more than two years? It just makes Ric and Jurgen Dick look uncomfortably more competent (skill-wise) in retrospect.

Like, I don't expect Dick to give the same beat down to Heartless he gave to KGBeast, but I hope there is some meat to that fight in the next Issue. If they fight.

As for the Gary Stu part… I know what you mean, but I don't think airhead Dick is the solution. Selina in Catwoman is competent through and through, but she still makes mistakes that cost her on the job. In Wonder Woman Diana has lost her memory and while the narrative punks on her a little too, none of the jokes are a whole narrative device the same way the stolen wallet is for Dick. Neither has she been shown as incompetent so someone else looks superior.

[…] Even Dick being in Bludhaven doing typical Dixon era things isn't any different from any other hero who recycles the same villains and plot points over and over again. It's not what many of us want, we want something new and amazing that cements Dick as a major player, but it's hard to complain about Blockbuster returning when we happily accept the return of over-used rogues like Scarecrow, Joker, Zod, and Lex Luthor.

Personally, I have made peace with Blüdhaven at least for this arc and maybe the next. It's here to stay and Blockbuster is actually one of two things that so far interest me about the run (the other one being Melinda Zucco).

But I do have the same concerns @Grayson - The Dark Heir has. The only difference is that I thought about Spider-Man, not Daredevil because Taylor said if people enjoyed his Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, they will enjoy his Nightwing too.

That tbh already made me wary. The type of book FNSM seems to be (only checked out the first Issues), is in my opinion not poignant enough for a character's main ongoing.

I also feel that for a Blüdhaven centric run/ reintroduction of Blüdhaven, the story doesn't center Blüdhaven characters enough so far. Which is one of the reasons why it feels so shallow to me. Seeley's run (re-)introduced the Run-Offs right away. Humphries' introduced Guppy and Dick's old friend. They made me care for Blüdhaven.

[…] 3 issues, and only one previous Bludhaven landmark (being Dick's apartment building) has shown up, so it doesn't even feel like I've been looking at Bludhaven this whole time. The only other notable character in the book is also from Gotham. Nothing in the book feels connected to Bludhaven meaningfully.

The landmarks are a good point as well. I didn't think that much about them because by now it seems clear that Seeley's and Humphries' Vegas Blüd is gone, but if there was ever a time to bring back a shitton of things from previous runs to built Blüd up properly, it's now. Instead, we get an empty apartment Dick pulled out of his famous behind and a tent city Dick doesn't enter.

[…] Setting up a homeless family in the richest hotel in the city just because, without a plan for literally anyone else in need would be something someone in Daredevil would probably criticize Dick for. Hell, it might even be something Dick would criticize Dick for. Hopefully Nightwing #83 can deal with some of these problems, but I'm worried for a reason.

This. It doesn't garner a lot of goodwill for the direction, and I will remain severely disappointed by it - especially because NW #77 already did the same thing on a larger scale. We even got to know the backstory of the characters in that one-off Issue.

Thank you for bringing up the Daredevil and Icon & Rocket comparisons. Puts it more into perspective.

[…] I alluded to this already, but Heartless is also annoying just because it feels like we're supposed to care about this random mystery character, but there are barely any characters in the book notable enough to be Heartless, and the only reason to care about the character's identity is because they're wearing a mask so as a reader you know there will be a reveal of some kind.

Oh no, I completely forgot that is very likely why they wear a mask. I liked my ignorance, damn it.

I feel the same way. Raptor and the Judge were set up a lot better.

We don't know a thing about Heartless. The device he uses to take out hearts might be interesting, but my first reaction wasn't excitement.

Another problem is that we have no connection to the victim. Yes, it's sad that Elliot's dad is dead, but we know nothing about father & son. We can't even speculate about why Heartless killed the dad. Except for an 'I guess he kills dads' thanks to the latest Issue.

It's also strange to realize that Taylor, Redondo, and their editor used #WhoIsHeartless to hype their new villain up on Twitter for about two months and then just stopped before Issue two even came out.



To wrap this all up: I hope you, @Ascended, are right that after Issue seven maybe eight or nine there will be more to the story and the direction, then I might pay the +4 bucks again.

[WonderNight]

Great post guys. I just hope that with characters like jace and tim running around that they can take over the batman lite role and the nightwing book can become more of a dcu titans style book. Save nightwing in the bat book for bat events and bat team ups.

[Badou]

And the stuff that's annoyed all of you pisses me off too. But when I sit back and remove my own biases and "haunted by the ghost of Didio" concerns, I don't think the book is actually doing anything "wrong." Pacing isn't any slower than most comics these days, it's just not cluttered with bloated action or Bendis-esque dialogue. The Bats have every right to guest star, they're Dick's family. Dick getting punked a little bit keeps him from being a uber-competent and boring Gary Stu (and would likely be funny if he hadn't been so abused for so long). Even Dick being in Bludhaven doing typical Dixon era things isn't any different from any other hero who recycles the same villains and plot points over and over again. It's not what many of us want, we want something new and amazing that cements Dick as a major player, but it's hard to complain about Blockbuster returning when we happily accept the return of over-used rogues like Scarecrow, Joker, Zod, and Lex Luthor

I think there is a really big difference between villains like Blockbuster and ones like Scarecrow, Joker, Zod, and Lex Luthor though. I'm sick of Joker stories more than anyone, but the latter are villains that people actually like and care about with some being the most famous villains in all of comics. They are part of some of the most well known stories ever and fans gravitate to them and want merch, mini series, figures, and other media adaptations of them. No one really cares a bout Blockbuster. People are only interested in Blockbuster because he is attached to Nightwing's hip, but he isn't a villain that can survive on his own. No one is out there saying we need a Blockbuster mini series or something. He is at best a C-tier villain who is mostly a knockoff of a much more famous Marvel villain in Kingpin. And having a villain like this be Nightwing's "archnemesis" will never elevate Nightwing beyond his current standing. If anything it prevents him from ever being looked at differently because only villains of Blockbuster level become who Nightwing is expected to fight which lowers his ceiling.

It kind of speaks to a bigger problem I have with a lot of typical Nightwing stories. There isn't really a great Nightwing story with a top tier or iconic villain. All he ends up mostly fighting are C-tier or D-tier villains and it reinforces the idea that Nightwing isn't at the level to go against anyone bigger. He is only allowed to go against bigger villains when he gets dragged into a bigger book in some crossover that usually doesn't treat him well. I get that you can't just use old well known villains over and over, and I have no issue with cycling in lesser or new villains a creator wants to create sometimes, but when that is all we ever get it can get frustrating as it typically devolves into Nightwing struggling against these lesser villains over and over.

I kind of wish this first arc in Taylor's run involved a bigger villain. Just so we could change the typical feeling of Nightwing or Bludhaven stories. I'll never care about Blockbuster, and I'm completely indifferent about Heartless since there is nothing to his character after 3 issues, but if this arc started out with a BIG Deathstroke, Riddler, or even Lex Luthor story then maybe this new run would feel differently. Where they are hitting the ground running putting Nightwing up against a villain that is a tier above typical Nightwing or Bludhaven villains. I feel like that would help break the character out of his typical ceiling, but we didn't get that. This arc just feels like more of the same with the only exception being Redondo's art. To me he is carrying the series hard, and I worry that he will be moved to a bigger book after the first arc or two and his art will have been wasted on stories about things like Bludhaven and Blockbuster which I'll never care about.

[hairys]

I have a feeling Taylor's run will rise and fall with Dick's reveal about how he will use his billion dollars to change Bludhaven in a way that Bruce was never able to do with Gotham.

It doesn't have to be realistic, per se, it just can't be freaking stupid. Looking forward to see what Taylor can come up with.

[Ascended]

I know you're not necessarily responding to my criticism here Ascended, but bear with me here lol.

Definitely not aiming my criticism at anyone in particular, and like I said the stuff that's annoying you guys is annoying me too, so my criticism applies to me as much as anyone else.

And there's a lot of great posts here with some damn great points, but replying to all of them would be a novel so.....

I'm just waiting to see the point to everything lol. I hope you can understand my disappointment.

Oh absolutely. I'm waiting for the point too. I get where y'all are coming from, I just think we're letting the recent past make us more pessimistic than is strictly warranted. I remember when the first couple issues of Grayson had come out, and a lot of people were still really against the direction and the story itself. And I remember when Invincible was just a well done, but standard, superhero book....until around issue 9, when the *real* story began.

That's what I'm hoping for here; that Invincible moment where everything changes and you realize the first whole trade (or whatever) is really just the prologue. I think there's a few indicators that this might happen. I might be wrong. If recent history repeats, I will be.

But right now I figure it's Schrödinger's Nightwing and I'm choosing optimism.

If it helps at all, I'll stop using Daredevil as a comparison starting now lol.

I haven't read Daredevil in years, so I have no idea what's going on in that book. There's always been a lot of surface similarity to these two, but I didn't know current events were playing so close to each other.

All I can do is hope the book delivers on just about anything moving forward, because so far it's delivering on nothing but fantastic art and decent dialogue. All things considered, that's a major step up from where the book was before. This isn't a post to say the book isn't as good as it needs to be, this is a post to say the book isn't being as good as it thinks it already is.

I totally agree with you here. This run has been, so far, well done basic bitch Nightwing. And I'll take well done basic bitch Nightwing over poorly done anything, but the run isn't living up to its own hype. So far. But we're already better off than we were so we're basically playing with the house's money. I'm willing to let this ride for a minute and hope for a big payout. And if I don't get it, I'm still walking away from the table with more than I had a year ago. If that makes any sense?

To wrap this all up: I hope you, @Ascended, are right that after Issue seven maybe eight or nine there will be more to the story and the direction, then I might pay the +4 bucks again.

I hope I'm right too. I hope that if there is that Invincible moment, it doesn't take eight or nine issues to get there. And in the meantime, it *is* good art, and the dialogue *is* generally good. This is far from a bad comic, and I'm trying hard not to hate on DC for not giving me the Nightwing that only exists in my head.

[Digifiend]

I haven't read Daredevil in years, so I have no idea what's going on in that book. There's always been a lot of surface similarity to these two, but I didn't know current events were playing so close to each other.

They're not - Matt Murdock isn't even Daredevil right now because he's in jail. Elektra is the current Daredevil.

[dropkickjake]

This book has gotta get back on a twice monthly schedule. I feel like the pacing of the story wouldn’t feel so slow if it wasn’t a month between issues.

[Lady Nightwing]

I feel like that would help the pacing issues but we'd probably have to get guest artists. I wouldn't like to lose Bruno Redondo. He's killing it right now

[Rac7d*]

This book has gotta get back on a twice monthly schedule. I feel like the pacing of the story wouldn’t feel so slow if it wasn’t a month between issues.

I would love that
But Tom has so many books not sure if he could keep up

[Drako]

Dick was in Future State: Gotham and actually was better than i expected. He fought Jason for a little bit and had the upperhand.

He appeared in JL Last Ride too for what i gathered, but i think it's just a cameo.